Further evidence of the decline of the 450/400 3"?

[hoytcanon]

Agreed, where that possibility exists. However as the OP points out, there are countries where reloading is either heavily restricted or just flat prohibited.

Several years ago while visiting what was touted as "the largest gun store in Bucharest," I commented on the lack of reloading supplies and equipment. The locals informed me that possession of critical reloading components (powder and primers) was prohibited; thus no reloading was possible. Hunting with muzzle-loading firearms was not possible either, for the same reason (not allowed to own black-powder).

To many of us, the option to reload for scarce or unusual calibers is a no-brainer. But others are not so fortunate, and consequently there are instances where one is indeed limited to the availability of factory ammunition.

The OP is from Germany, not Bucharest.

 

[V.Veritas]

The OP is from Germany, not Bucharest.

Regardless, the statement regarding the reloading laws in Romania is 100% corect. It is currently prohibited.

For the AH members from the Western societies I'll add the following as trivia:

Unfortunately it is very unlikely for the laws to change in Romania, because most of the hunters themselves are against "pro-reloading legislation" (as well as hunting with a bow or a crossbow).

Call it "post-communism" mentality. There was no freedom of hunting and firearms ownership during the communism dictatorship and now "to much freedom" equals "free poaching" in their minds.

The Romanian hunters community attitude comes from good intentions supported by a gross misunderstanding of what freedom means and honest hunting commitment is. They just don't know what they don't know.
Simply put, the hunting traditions were lost in 1945 when the Red Army set-up the first puppet communist government in Romania and the private firearms ownership was outlawed.

Some of the consequences of this mentality are: limited and expensive ammunition available to the hunting community, virtually no public ranges available for shooting practice, hunters do not know how to zero their own scopes (gunsmith services are employed for this basic task), no scope adjustments are performed for various brands of ammunition, very limited to no practice between hunts, no practice shots are commonly offered to hunters by the Outfitters, etc.

One positive aspect though is that most shooting practice is done during hunts, on running game and some of the hunters in time become very proficient at shooting off hand at running game.

If I'm wrong on any of the comments above I'll gladly accept any corrections.

 

[SaintPanzer]

The OP is from Germany, not Bucharest.

I hold a Pulverschein. Let's agree Germany falls into the "heavily restricted" category.

Short summary:
Special license to buy powder. Most, if not all stores do not have powder on hand, you have to order it and it will take two to four weeks to get it. This is due to restrictions on how (and how much) powder can be stored, and where it can be stored. The powder cannot be stored with anything else, including finished ammo, or just brass, or just bullets. Certainly not with primers (though those can be stored anywhere). And the "responsible authorities" can stop by any time to confirm you are following the rules.

To get the license, you must take a special class. Once you have finished the class, you must apply for the license (with your background check) at the local "responsible authority" to get the license. Then you have a limited time to purchase your first powder (which is logged in your license, as are all purchases... it's not like you can just go to Powder Valley), Oh, and if you don't renew your license on time? Start over with the class. Did I mention the classes are not inexpensive?

No, it's not Bucharest. But it's not trivial either.

 

[Daniel Cary]

I hold a Pulverschein. Let's agree Germany falls into the "heavily restricted" category.

Short summary:
Special license to buy powder. Most, if not all stores do not have powder on hand, you have to order it and it will take two to four weeks to get it. This is due to restrictions on how (and how much) powder can be stored, and where it can be stored. The powder cannot be stored with anything else, including finished ammo, or just brass, or just bullets. Certainly not with primers (though those can be stored anywhere). And the "responsible authorities" can stop by any time to confirm you are following the rules.

To get the license, you must take a special class. Once you have finished the class, you must apply for the license (with your background check) at the local "responsible authority" to get the license. Then you have a limited time to purchase your first powder (which is logged in your license, as are all purchases... it's not like you can just go to Powder Valley), Oh, and if you don't renew your license on time? Start over with the class. Did I mention the classes are not inexpensive?

No, it's not Bucharest. But it's not trivial either.

I believe the US will follow suite before long, a concern.

 

[IvW]

I have the Kgun with the .450/400 barrels now and love it. During my short tenure with it Hornady has been the only ammo manufacturer. I was able to get ammo and components and now have a good stash. I use John at Safari Arms to load for me. He is great To work with. I sat down with Rigby at SCI (mistake) and they make .450/400 as do many others. I believe the caliber is on the rise as it has been for quite a few years. When more people have the experience I have had it will keep growing!

Find it strange that on another thread you advise against handloading for dg yet you pay someone to handload for you.....contradictory......

 

[Troubleshooter]

The OP is from Germany, not Bucharest.

Neither is he in Canada.

My point was that on an international forum such as this, we cannot assume that the obvious solution for us will necessarily work for someone located in another country where the laws and regulations may be drastically different.

 

[Troubleshooter]

Back to the original question posed; my impression is that the .450/400 NE was and is a reasonably popular choice within its niche, but that niche is fairly narrow and confined to a select portion of hunters. Its future survival will be dependent on the availability of suitable ammunition and (in those locations where reloading is a viable option) components.

At the moment, loaded ammunition from Hornady is available (although expensive) from a number of retailers. Whether the hunter has access to those retailers (based on his location) is another matter.

So any "decline" of rifles chambered in the cartridge will be based on its practicality rather than its inherent ballistic characteristics. I suspect that Hornady will continue to produce ammunition in this and other niche calibers, but it will likely be in batches, and probably several years between production runs. Buy it when and where you can.

 

[IvW]

It is one if a very few with a purpose built case for modern powder most others are from black powder decent ...

 

[Rare Breed]

Neither is he in Canada.

My point was that on an international forum such as this, we cannot assume that the obvious solution for us will necessarily work for someone located in another country where the laws and regulations may be drastically different.

Very fair point and eye opening for me living in the US. I am finding from this post I have taken for granted the ease of reloading in the US versus other countries

 

[hoytcanon]

Neither is he in Canada.

My point was that on an international forum such as this, we cannot assume that the obvious solution for us will necessarily work for someone located in another country where the laws and regulations may be drastically different.

My point was, that I was talking to the OP, who is in Germany... not Romania, not Somalia, not Tajikistan... Germany.

 

[cajunchefray]

Find it strange that on another thread you advise against handloading for dg yet you pay someone to handload for you.....contradictory......

Same thought.

Is the "contract" loading firm as good, or better than any mass production factory?

I do not wish to disparage any custom ammunition firm. They provide a very important product and service. Good for hunters, business, and keeping the classic cartridges available.

If I worked with a custom reloading firm, for dangerous game, on an expensive hunt, I think a visit in person is well worth the time and expense. I want to see and feel what is happening, but probably my chef instincts to see, and touch,

Custom reloaders provide a very valuable product and service.

 

[rookhawk]

What I'm seeing is that there is a lot of demand for the 450/400 3", a lot of guns in this caliber have been made in the last 15 years, and they are carrying a financial premium in the marketplace. Same for its rimless twin the 404 Jeff.

Why is this the case? Regulations for most dangerous game have become onerous, the PR backlash and potential damage to one's career for hunting dangerous game is high, the costs of elephant hunts are high, and the recoil/weight of dangerous game calibers is significant. But the 450-400 and 404 have mild recoil, are ideal for the one DG animal the antis don't care about, that also happens to be the one dangerous game animal that is relatively cheap and easy to hunt. Buffalo. All directions point to Buffalo interest and low recoil interest converging on the 450-400.

The short supply of components for handloading or factory loads isn't related whatsoever to demand, it is related to insatiable demand for unrelated products. (.223, 9mm, 40cal, 30-06, et. al) This is the aftershock of Covid supply chain issues compounded with military demand for ALL the manufacturing lines and product allocation due to international conflicts. Example: Lake City plant, operated by Olin/Winchester, is taking zero civilian orders this year.

Why won't this cure itself anytime soon? Any large bore or relatively obscure caliber is manufactured on a 5 year warehousing basis. A firm does a large run, outlaying capital and warehouse space, then awaits a trickle of orders to come in to deplete those stockpiles. Same is true for 6.5x55 swedish, 257 roberts, 7x57, or any other caliber that doesn't end in 308 or 06. Why make anything on speculation when you can get a purchase order on net-30 days terms for every single 9mm, 308, or 223 you can pump out the line for the next several years?

Unrelated to all of this, would I buy a 450-400 or 404J right now? I would not. They are trading at 1.5x to 2x premiums over other calibers and for supply of components and ammo, the hegemony in the West and Africa has always been 470NE, 458WM, and 375HH. I believe you can get a lot more gun for less money sticking with the aforementioned all while having easier access to components.

 

[Troubleshooter]

My point was, that I was talking to the OP, who is in Germany... not Romania, not Somalia, not Tajikistan... Germany.

So noted. Have a nice day.

 

[Troubleshooter]

But the 450-400 and 404 have mild recoil, are ideal for the one DG animal the antis don't care about, that also happens to be the one dangerous game animal that is relatively cheap and easy to hunt. Buffalo. All directions point to Buffalo interest and low recoil interest converging on the 450-400.

Good assessment and well stated.

The short supply of components for handloading or factory loads isn't related whatsoever to demand, it is related to insatiable demand for unrelated products. (.223, 9mm, 40cal, 30-06, et. al)

Why won't this cure itself anytime soon? Any large bore or relatively obscure caliber is manufactured on a 5 year warehousing basis.

That tracks with what many of us have seen during the past few years, and argues strongly for purchasing when the manufacturing cycle makes those products temporarily available. Although "buy it cheap" may no longer be an option, "stack it deep" still applies for this and other niche calibers.

 

[hoytcanon]

So noted. Have a nice day.

U2

 

[Philip Glass]

Find it strange that on another thread you advise against handloading for dg yet you pay someone to handload for you.....contradictory......

No sir not at all. I pay a professional who all he does is ammunition and has his own factory. There is No better way And no better ammo.

I'll try again: Sir what I advise against is the constant tinkering of most hand loaders. From what I see most can not be happy with a good bullet and a good load that performs well. So Many chase velocity or accuracy day after day. I see them on FB with a new load the week before their safari. They have no idea how that bullet and load performs on game because it is truly brand new!
Those truly experienced hand loaders who hunt with their ammo at home and know what they are doing will get no grief from me. (Well maybe just a little )

 

[IvW]

No sir not at all. I pay a professional who all he does is ammunition and has his own factory. There is No better way And no better ammo.

I'll try again: Sir what I advise against is the constant tinkering of most hand loaders. From what I see most can not be happy with a good bullet and a good load that performs well. So Many chase velocity or accuracy day after day. I see them on FB with a new load the week before their safari. They have no idea how that bullet and load performs on game because it is truly brand new!
Those truly experienced hand loaders who hunt with their ammo at home and know what they are doing will get no grief from me. (Well maybe just a little )

Well that clears it up then thx

 

[rookhawk]

No sir not at all. I pay a professional who all he does is ammunition and has his own factory. There is No better way And no better ammo.

I'll try again: Sir what I advise against is the constant tinkering of most hand loaders. From what I see most can not be happy with a good bullet and a good load that performs well. So Many chase velocity or accuracy day after day. I see them on FB with a new load the week before their safari. They have no idea how that bullet and load performs on game because it is truly brand new!
Those truly experienced hand loaders who hunt with their ammo at home and know what they are doing will get no grief from me. (Well maybe just a little )

Amen @Philip Glass . The DG rifle problems are almost all caused by uninformed enthusiasts. Reading Pondoro Taylor’s book is one of the best longitudinal studies on Big game killing that ever existed. What kills big game? 40 caliber and up bullets hitting an animal at 1900fps.

Every sh&tty PH rifle that I’ve seen destroyed all had the same issues. Hobbiests eeking out more velocity and pressure thinking that they need 2250-2650 FPS. Not true. They then cite that the original loads were 2250FPS which was also not true. (Real world, most of them were 2050-2075fps at the muzzle).

Everybody wants to be Roy Weatherby it seems.

 

[IvW]

Not sure why you refer to every shitty PH rifle that you have seen.....
All experienced dg PH I know have well used reliable rifles with ammo that works....in most cases self loaded.....

Now inexperienced "Need for speed" clients are a totally different thing.....

 

[Rare Breed]

No sir not at all. I pay a professional who all he does is ammunition and has his own factory. There is No better way And no better ammo.

I'll try again: Sir what I advise against is the constant tinkering of most hand loaders. From what I see most can not be happy with a good bullet and a good load that performs well. So Many chase velocity or accuracy day after day. I see them on FB with a new load the week before their safari. They have no idea how that bullet and load performs on game because it is truly brand new!
Those truly experienced hand loaders who hunt with their ammo at home and know what they are doing will get no grief from me. (Well maybe just a little )

Philip and I have had this conversation and he is a friend…I was going to answer for him but knew he would articulate better than me. He and many others see the professional reloading companies of which only know of as 3 are the best of both worlds. As for me while I would never consider myself a professional have reloaded for over 20 years which only means “@philip glass tolerates me”. lol!!!!