Flat nose or round nose?

[spike.t]

If I may lend an insight , Spike T ...
you see , the bullets to be utilized in rifles with tubular magazines need to have a BLUNT NOSE ( in order to prevent 1 cartridge's bullet point from striking the primer of the cartridge before it ) . Whether the bluntness is accomplished by flattening the nose or rounding it off ... is at the bullet manufacturer's discretion .
That said ... I still prefer the classic flat nose Winchester Super X 170 grain soft point cartridges for the .30-30 Winchester . It is traditional.

Yup major..I have a Winchester 94 carbine in 30-30 and a Brockman custom marlin in 45-70 just haven't seen or shot them in a long time...in store in England..

These were the flat nose type of bullets I had in both calibres

.

 

[spike.t]

Nothing like corona to revitalize some old topics...

Bugger all else to do till I restock the gin supply...we had bit of a session other night ..

 

[tarbe]

It's an old thread so don't see a problem by us waffling a bit...

Hell, it's what we do brother!

 

[Newboomer]

Slight tangent: Some semi pistols have a tendency for flat nose to hang up on the feed ramp. A little polishing usually cures that discrepancy. OAL is critical.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Many bullets are round nosed because they were first designed for use in rifles that employ a tubular magazine.

Tubular magazines need flat nose bullets... Google a photo of a 30-30 ..

spike. t..
If that is the case why we're the early British doubles all round nose, surely the lever action only plated a small part. Even the 45/70 was round nose/ flatpoint.
Both the flat nose and the roundnose offer better penetration than traditional cup and core spire points due to designed. Modern long range shooting seems to demand Spitzer due to better ballistics.
Up to 200 yards the flat points and roundnose give more dramatic killing effect on medium to large game. It's just that we h ave been brain washed to believe Spitzer are better, maybe after 200 yards yes. Long range shooting seems to be more popular now days. In reality most game is shot at less than 200 yards so technically the round or flat nose would suit 99% of our needs.
Just my 2 cents worth
Bob Nelson

 

[MMAL]

I have not seen in mentioned but I always thought that flat nosed bullets were solely for large dangerous game and the nose was flat purely to minimize the chance of deflection. Either brush or the angled head of an animal. You could certainly imagine a buffalo/elephant head angled up as you shoot and a round nose bullet would lend itself to deflect rather than penetrate, the flat nose was meant to counter this somewhat. Think of shooting the boss (by accident of course, not the aiming point you should be shooting at) of a buffalo angled up, would you want a round or flat nosed bullet? I would also disagree (with no definitive proof) that a flat nose will penetrate any better than a round nose bullet of the exact same characteristics. Think of stabbing a steak with a ice pick or a hammer.

My two cents and again, my thoughts not necessarily science.

 

[spike.t]

spike. t..
If that is the case why we're the early British doubles all round nose, surely the lever action only plated a small part. Even the 45/70 was round nose/ flatpoint.
Both the flat nose and the roundnose offer better penetration than traditional cup and core spire points due to designed. Modern long range shooting seems to demand Spitzer due to better ballistics.
Up to 200 yards the flat points and roundnose give more dramatic killing effect on medium to large game. It's just that we h ave been brain washed to believe Spitzer are better, maybe after 200 yards yes. Long range shooting seems to be more popular now days. In reality most game is shot at less than 200 yards so technically the round or flat nose would suit 99% of our needs.
Just my 2 cents worth
Bob Nelson

Hi Bob not sure of your point.. As the first part of my post was copied from I think the first reply to the question.... I got it wrong as tarbe pointed about round noses being fine in tubular magazines ,as I had only used the flat nosed bullets in both my lever guns I showed in another post....as that's what Paul got hold of for me when we went to the range to try them out.......and I know the distances animals are generally shot at.....usually well under 200 yards on our place as quite thick in places....

 

[Tanks]

...

That is if it is a bolt action or double such as VC which will allow you to use them. Krieghoff the warranty will be void if you use solid brass bullets......

Do they say why they would void the warranty? Solid brass bullets made with driving bands have minimal contact with the bore.

CEB .500 caliber 500 grain solid Bullet Performance

• Tanks
• Feb 18, 2020
• 1

CEB .500 caliber 500 grain solids recovered from elephants. The one on the bottom 15 meters...

 

[IvW]

Do they say why they would void the warranty? Solid brass bullets made with driving bands have minimal contact with the bore.

CEB .500 caliber 500 grain solid Bullet Performance

• Tanks
• Feb 18, 2020
• 1

CEB .500 caliber 500 grain solids recovered from elephants. The one on the bottom 15 meters...

How will they know which one you actually fired through the rifle after the fact?

 

[Tanks]

Well, the main question is why the prejudice against brass vs copper vs steel while other manufacturers do not seem to care?

 

[IvW]

Well, the main question is why the prejudice against brass vs copper vs steel while other manufacturers do not seem to care?

Only they can answer.....

 

[IvW]

I have not seen in mentioned but I always thought that flat nosed bullets were solely for large dangerous game and the nose was flat purely to minimize the chance of deflection. Either brush or the angled head of an animal. You could certainly imagine a buffalo/elephant head angled up as you shoot and a round nose bullet would lend itself to deflect rather than penetrate, the flat nose was meant to counter this somewhat. Think of shooting the boss (by accident of course, not the aiming point you should be shooting at) of a buffalo angled up, would you want a round or flat nosed bullet? I would also disagree (with no definitive proof) that a flat nose will penetrate any better than a round nose bullet of the exact same characteristics. Think of stabbing a steak with a ice pick or a hammer.

My two cents and again, my thoughts not necessarily science.

For buffalo I only use premium grade expanding bullets for all shots, not solids.

Elephant, Rhino and Hippo on land are the only ones I use solids on.

 

[Wyatt Smith]

For buffalo I only use premium grade expanding bullets for all shots, not solids.

Elephant, Rhino and Hippo on land are the only ones I use solids on.

Do you use Rhino solids? I know you like their softs.

 

[IvW]

Do you use Rhino solids? I know you like their softs.

Yes.

The Dzombo and Woodleigh hydro's are also excellent.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Hi Bob not sure of your point.. As the first part of my post was copied from I think the first reply to the question.... I got it wrong as tarbe pointed about round noses being fine in tubular magazines ,as I had only used the flat nosed bullets in both my lever guns I showed in another post....as that's what Paul got hold of for me when we went to the range to try them out.......and I know the distances animals are generally shot at.....usually well under 200 yards on our place as quite thick in places....

spike.t
I'm sorry you took my post out of context it wasn't directed at you mate it was a general comment for every one about most game being shot at less than 200 yards. When I had my lever action ( until I tf bit me thru not using the lever correctly. Took a big chunk out of my finger with the trigger.) I used either round or flat nose.
I' truly apologise to you I was not trying to be rude just give some general information.
I still don't get the point of shooting game at 7to 800 yards. There's to much that can go wrong and animals deserve a quick human demise.
Cheers mate Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

The main advantage of a spitzer shaped bullet is its aerodynamic qualities that help it to be more accurate at a greater distance. The elongated tip betters the bullet's stability. It also reduces the violence of the bullets disruption through the air, making it more efficient (similar to hull speed on a boat).

Many bullets are round nosed because they were first designed for use in rifles that employ a tubular magazine. If those bullets were spitzers, users might have problems with random discharges. Hornady's flex-tip bullets increase the effective range of many traditionally round nose bullets.

Most hunters hunt with expanding bullets, even if the bullet is of spitzer shape. When the bullet expands it is increasing its ability to cut arteries and destroy tissue and no longer resembles the spitzer design. Many dangerous game bullets will have round noses because it does do a better job at penetrating. The flatter nose will deform less drastically than an elongated nose and will therefor penetrate further and straighter. The problems of ballistics with round nose bullets are mitigated by the fact that shots on dangerous game should be fairly close.

This isn't the most comprehensive answer, I apologize for that but this should get you started and if I am unclear, feel free to ask again, there are plenty of knowledgeable people on this site. If you are insatiably interested in bullets and rifles and ballistics a good book to read is Rifles for Africa by Gregor Woods. It is not the end all be all of bullet info, but it is a well written, clear and logical start to the conversation.

Cognac
When lever action rifles were invented the Spitzer designed bullet was still 30 years off. It was developed to give longer range in machine guns if my memory serves me correctly. Round and flat nose allow the tubular magazine to be safely but the French developed a Spitzer in the 8mm Lebel that loaded in the tube. The round had another groove in the base where the tip sat.
Cheers mate Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

8mm Lebel round used in a tubular magazine note the shape of the base for the tip of the bullet to sit in.
Cheers
Bob

 

[bruce moulds]

where did the round nose come from?
we need to look at ballistic developments as an evolution.
up until a point in this evolution, all bullets were cast or swaged lead/lead alloy with no jackets, propelled by black powder.
while black powder is less energy than smokeless, it has a very sudden pressure curve, causing alloy bullets to bump up on firing.
this allowed the use of bore diameter bullets, as they bumped into the rifling.
with black powder fouling, undersized bullets were used in repeaters, as they could be chambered in fouled barrels, yet bump up to fit the barrel, clean or dirty.
when bullets bump up, the process also goes into the nose, causing it to set back, and if too long and/or soft, to bend as well.
not good for accuracy.
it was found that alloy bullets could work with noses up to around 1.5 calibres long.
long range bullets used this to achieve the highest b.c. possible for the technology.
the americans used elliptical noses, and the brits used the metford nose, now referred to as the money nose.
for short range rounds like the 44/40, a flat nose was as ballistically useful as an elliptical.
mid range cartridges like the 40/70 used longer ogives with a flat meplat.
when smokeless powder came along, they needed jackets to assist with the higher pressures.
so they just used the known bullet shapes with added jackets.
think 30/03, 30/40, 303 mk6, 7x57 early, etc.
not sure where the spitzer started, but it revolutionized military ammo,
the 8mm lebel certainly took it to yet another level being the first boat tail.
the old round noses with jackets were primarily used in hunting rifles with iron sights, meaning there was little incentive to look for longer range noses.
within the range envelope of iron hunting sights they just worked well.
bruce.

 

[Velo Dog]

I would also disagree (with no definitive proof) that a flat nose will penetrate any better than a round nose bullet of the exact same characteristics. Think of stabbing a steak with a ice pick or a hammer.

Hi MMAL,

I agree with you that, a probably less than .17 caliber sharp steel “spitzer” shaped ice pick, will no doubt penetrate a meat steak with little effort, compared to the, I’m guessing at least .75 caliber, flat striking surface of a common hammer.
However, that’s like comparing asparagus to melons.

Rather I think it would be interesting to discover which of the following will use less effort, to push through a given distance of meat:

1.
A known weight and diameter, (let’s say again .75 caliber) steel rod, aka: “bar stock” but with the business end ground into a round nose shape, such as a common RN “solid” dangerous game bullet has.

2.
The same weight and diameter of bar stock, but, it is instead flat / square cornered on the business end.
We could even grind it into a slight meplat shape if so inclined, again with more or less a relatively sharp edge, to mirror as closely as possible, the shape of the better solids we have today.

My bet is that the “round nose” shaped one will require more effort......
Dang, I’m real tired of being under “flu season house arrest”, I need to get out more lol.

Kind regards,
Velo Dog.

 

[spike.t]

spike.t
I'm sorry you took my post out of context it wasn't directed at you mate it was a general comment for every one about most game being shot at less than 200 yards. When I had my lever action ( until I tf bit me thru not using the lever correctly. Took a big chunk out of my finger with the trigger.) I used either round or flat nose.
I' truly apologise to you I was not trying to be rude just give some general information.
I still don't get the point of shooting game at 7to 800 yards. There's to much that can go wrong and animals deserve a quick human demise.
Cheers mate Bob

No probs..didn't take it that way...just thought you thought that was what I had written...