First Safari - I’ll hunt plains game - What caliber?

[mark-hunter]

Ballistic studies by Nathan Foster. Many here have read it.

Where can this be found?

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I’ve read every major ballistics book and paper. I love the stuff.

Energy doesn’t kill an animal IMO. Tissue damage kills an animal. Modern bullets cause more tissue damage than older ones.

Only time energy matters at all is withe dangerous game.

If a bullet passes through then most of the energy is given to the dirt or tree or whatever on the other side.

Give me a smaller caliber faster fragmenting bullet any day of the week.

Go read the “223 for deer, bear, elk” thread on another site. Just google what I have in parentheses and read 100’s of examples.

Individual experience is tricky. You could have been doing the wrong thing your whole life, not know it, but think it’s the right thing. You have to look at data from multiple sources to actually get the full picture.

@Daisy
I may have been doing the wrong thing for most of my life by your standards but a shit ton of dead animals would tend to disagree with you.
Have you ever seen the energy dump out of a medium bore like the 35 Whelen with a big 250 grain round nose. The whole animal shudders the internals are destroyed and there's a hole out the other side. Works for me.
Don't start me on smaller calibres I've shot enough game with a very fast 25 cal ( read 100 gn monos and old cup and core ) at over 3,600fps. Yes the internal devastation can be massive, more so with frangible bullets than monos but both result in dead animal.
All animals react differently, to different shots. No two are the same.
I'm not here to start a pissing contest but game dies when hit with the correct bullet in the correct place if the calibre is sufficient.
I don't know to many HUNTERS that take the time to wait for an animal to present a perfect head shot or chest shot so they can slip a bullet into the spot to kill the animal.
HUNTERS I know use enough gun to get the job done even when the shot isn't ideal and a bullet may have to pace thru a paunch to reach the vitals or smash major bones to penetrate an animal.
I don't really care if'n y'all shoot deer, bear or elk with a 223 but what happens when it doesn't work. One wounded animal to suffer. Theres a reason why there's recommended calibres for different game.
Sorry I'll just keep doing the wrong thing for the rest of my life and use enough ( sometimes to much) gun for my hunting and continue to happily harvest game with said guns.
Bob

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

Please. You haven’t hunted much if you haven’t had an animal run after shooting it. Sometimes they drop instantly. Sometimes they won’t. Anyone here being honest would verify that.

I’ve seen a lot of shit shot in my life. The bigger you go on caliber the lower the average number of steps after impact they take even on marginal and non vital/cns shots. There are calibers which almost always sit them down instantly but most don’t hunt with them.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

What does hunting elephants have to do with plains game hunting?

Humor usually hides poor arguments

@Daisy
You find more elephants on the plains than on mountains or in the sky. So this old fart would consider them plains game. Be it big and some times dangerous they is still plains game.
Ha Ha Ha Ha
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Where can this be found?

@mark-hunter
Just google ballistic studies Nathan Foster.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Where can this be found?

@mark-hunter

That's the website mate.
Maybe @Daisy could read it and stop believing in the tooth fairy, Santa Claus and YouTube.
Real world results from real world research by real people. Not you tube and other advertising garbage.
Bob ob

 

[Tim Blackwell]

Actually....300m to 400m would be maximum not minimum. My PHs have always asked what my max comfort shooting distance is. Then try to stalk up to animals to my comfort range. But there will be times a 200+, 300+, 400+ shot is all you get.

Please don't shot the messages or send hare mail, and this is a rough paraphrase of the consensus of the PHs at one particular outfitter and echo by other PHs I have covertly asked their opinion on long range shooting/shooters.

The consensus is; hunters from certain US state(s) commonly claim they are consistent at shooting (hunting animals at) over 400, 500, 600, 800, + yards. Yet they can hit an animal at minus 200 yards. [In fact: based on their multiple experience] These hunters miss or wound more animals than they kill at the normal [hunters wanting less than 150 yard max range shots] hunters wanting close range shots.

There is a reason why long range shooters miss short yardage shots. But that is for another thread. And I learned from experience through archery of all means.

Sorry mate you've misunderstood me. I didn't mean you will be shooting 300m minimum, but rather you should know where your rifle hits at each distance out to at least 300m. Apologies if I wrote it poorly.

I've shot game on the Eastern Cape from 8 paces out to 380m. The closer the better in my opinion, but it's not always possible in those big valleys with thick cover.

I think you misunderstood what Tim was saying, I think you’ll find he meant the minimum standard that a shooter should have is to know where his rifle will hit out to 300 mtrs, ie: from zero to 300 mtrs.
Gumpy

Exactly this, thanks mate.

TB

 

[amschind]

I do not have experience shooting African creatures, so take that into account. However, faced with a similar question, I went with a 9.3x62mm. Most of this assumes someone who is interested AND comfortable with reloading, so if you're sticking with factory ammo then this post has almost zero utility. The idea is that you won't maul yourself practicing, and you have an enormous range of options. If you reload, the caliber offers a staggering array of options AND is perhaps the most likely caliber to have ammo availability in any former German or Dutch colony.

Lapua 185
Hornady 286
Hornady 300 DGS

Between those 3 options, or really an number of choices for the 286 and 300 bullets, you could EASILY get by with one rifle. The .30-'06 will struggle to feed anything bigger than a 220 gr RN from the magazine, which is the whole reason for the .338-'06. Others have far more to offer than I do in terms of terminal performance, but I do have quite a bit of experience reloading everything from .380 ACP to .50 BMG. Using the experience of others as a guide, I have found that a 9.3x62 can replicate the largest swath of "these are the performance numbers needed to kill Creature X" for Africa. That is perhaps one area where the 9.3 outshines the .375, in that its tough to find .375 bullets lighter than 250 grains (Sierra offers a stubby 200 grain bullet, but the smallest bullet with a reasonable BC is 250 grains), while Lapua's 185 can put the 9.3 firmly into .30-06 territory.

Anyway, I hope this helps.

 

[Ridge Runner]

I shoot distance really accurately. I have the shirts to prove it! But my longest hunting kill shots have never been over 400: 2 were with my .243 - one at 380 yards and one at 369 yards. Otherwise a few 300 RUM on Elk at 325 yards +/- and 330 yards on Black Wildebeest with a 7MM REM MAG. I don’t count Prairie dogs with my .22-250, but that is another little custom rifle that shoots lights out with laser accuracy to well beyond 500 Yards.

300 RUM will go with me to Sonora Mexico for Mule deer in November this year and that will likely be less than a 200 yard shot.


300 RUM:View attachment 633726
View attachment 633725

When people regardless of what weapon they choose to be proficient with are accustom to shooting certain ranges. They often have a hard time adjusting to ranges outside those set range parameters using the same weapon.

Broad stroking this.

A person use to setting up, zeroing, shooting their deer rifle at 100 yards and maybe making a few 150 yard shots have a tendency to get target panic when suddenly they find themselves having to take a 200 + /- shot at an animal.

A person use to setting up, zeroing and shooting their rifle at 500, 600, 700, +, yards are now having to make a 200+/- yard preverbial "chip shot" over think or don't think and make a bad shot or miss an animal because they miss compensated the "oh that's a give me shot".

I will also venture to say not many, especially first timers, take a rangefinder to Africa. Relying heavily on their PH to know/judge the range accurately enough for a good shot.

 

[Doug Hamilton]

@Daisy
I may have been doing the wrong thing for most of my life by your standards but a shit ton of dead animals would tend to disagree with you.
Have you ever seen the energy dump out of a medium bore like the 35 Whelen with a big 250 grain round nose. The whole animal shudders the internals are destroyed and there's a hole out the other side. Works for me.
Don't start me on smaller calibres I've shot enough game with a very fast 25 cal ( read 100 gn monos and old cup and core ) at over 3,600fps. Yes the internal devastation can be massive, more so with frangible bullets than monos but both result in dead animal.
All animals react differently, to different shots. No two are the same.
I'm not here to start a pissing contest but game dies when hit with the correct bullet in the correct place if the calibre is sufficient.
I don't know to many HUNTERS that take the time to wait for an animal to present a perfect head shot or chest shot so they can slip a bullet into the spot to kill the animal.
HUNTERS I know use enough gun to get the job done even when the shot isn't ideal and a bullet may have to pace thru a paunch to reach the vitals or smash major bones to penetrate an animal.
I don't really care if'n y'all shoot deer, bear or elk with a 223 but what happens when it doesn't work. One wounded animal to suffer. Theres a reason why there's recommended calibres for different game.
Sorry I'll just keep doing the wrong thing for the rest of my life and use enough ( sometimes to much) gun for my hunting and continue to happily harvest game with said guns.
Bob

Well said Bob! I"d share a hunting camp with you anytime!

 

[Ridge Runner]

I think you misunderstood what Tim was saying, I think you’ll find he meant the minimum standard that a shooter should have is to know where his rifle will hit out to 300 mtrs, ie: from zero to 300 mtrs.
Gumpy

Sorry mate you've misunderstood me. I didn't mean you will be shooting 300m minimum, but rather you should know where your rifle hits at each distance out to at least 300m. Apologies if I wrote it poorly.

I've shot game on the Eastern Cape from 8 paces out to 380m. The closer the better in my opinion, but it's not always possible in those big valleys with thick cover.



Exactly this, thanks mate.

TB

"....use something flat that will stretch out, and know where it hits to 300m at a minimum."

I did interpret his intent meaning minimum of 300m. "...flat ( meaning a flat trajectory caliber) that will stretch out.....and know where it hits at 300m." Suggesting 300m+/- as being the minimum shooting distances.

Apologies for the misinterpretation @Tim Blackwell
Thanks for the clarification @Grumpy gumpy.

 

[Doug Hamilton]

I’ve seen a lot of shit shot in my life. The bigger you go on caliber the lower the average number of steps after impact they take even on marginal and non vital/cns shots. There are calibers which almost always sit them down instantly but most don’t hunt with them.

Yeah, I've never shot any thing alive with a .50 BMG, but I heard that the rate of wounded and lost animals goes way down with it. People have been trying to kill things with substandard calibers and getting substandard results for many years. Even Robert Ruark wrote about wounding a hyena with a .220 Swift then finishing the poor animal with his .470 NE. Major Khan, who wrote many articles on AH before his death wrote about a friend of his who was hanged because he allowed a client to use a .22-250 to shoot a tiger. Then the tiger killed him.

I'm with you. The bigger the cartridge the sooner things stop happening after the shot.

 

[mark-hunter]

@Doug Hamilton
Was this figure of speech, to make a point, or you were serious about 50 BMG in hunting?
Who hunts with 50 BMG? And with what platform?

(BTW I agree with all you said, after 50 bmg)

 

[Doug Hamilton]

@Doug Hamilton
Was this figure of speech, to make a point, or you were serious about 50 BMG in hunting?
Who hunts with 50 BMG? And with what platform?

(BTW I agree with all you said, after 50 bmg)

Yes. It was a joke (hyperbole) to make a point. I did shoot one.once at a range. The rifle weighed 28 pounds. I do not know of anyone that actually uses one for hunting.

 

[375Fox]

@mark-hunter View attachment 633757
That's the website mate.
Maybe @Daisy could read it and stop believing in the tooth fairy, Santa Claus and YouTube.
Real world results from real world research by real people. Not you tube and other advertising garbage.
Bob ob

That’s a good resource you posted. Thanks for posting. I hadn’t seen before. I’ll have to read the Norma articles a few times to really have it sink in.

 

[Neophyte]

I use a .338 Win Mag for Coues Deer.

It’s my one rifle for all of the lower 48. When I went to Alaska I wanted bigger and stainless so I opted for the .375 Ruger.

As long you can shoot it well you should shoot the largest caliber you can is my opinion. Those that say bullet technology has improved so I don’t have to use such a big caliber today I say bovine excrement.

The technology that has improved the small bullet has also been used to improve the larger bullet. If you don’t shoot a larger caliber well then improve or limit what you hunt to appropriate for caliber game.

 

[Ridge Runner]

Yes. It was a joke (hyperbole) to make a point. I did shoot one.once at a range. The rifle weighed 28 pounds. I do not know of anyone that actually uses one for hunting.

.....we are still talking about hunting 4 legged animals and not "primates" through....say a wall, correct?.....

 

[IvW]

Disturbing to see the lack of ethics and use of non legal calibers on some game...... also allowed by the ph and outfitter....sad to say the least.......ego and $ driven....truely sad......

 

[Safari Dave]

IMHO (this time), both Daisy & Doug are correct, given the situation.

Destruction of vital organs is the optimal situation and will lead to the quickest, most humane kills, no doubt.

However, in hunting situations, especially for a foreigner, in Africa, under very time constrained, "hurry up," situations, you (more often than not, in my case...) do not get a perfect broadside shot, where the bullet would only have to only penetrate a rib or a scapula.

I have had to try to break big bones, in order to try to incapacitate an animal in order to get a better placed, follow-up shot. (I've been extremely fortunate, and never HAD to make a "follow-up" shot, even though I have put another "insurance" shot or two through an animal, just in case he got up).

A 6mm (or smaller) will kill anything that walks, with the right bullet and the right shot placement.

IMO, the "perfect shot" may never present itself during the 5-7 days most of us have to hunt in Africa. This is why I lean towards cartridges that can penetrate deeply and break big bones at less than optimal angles.

I have many anecdotal experiences, where small projectiles failed, but that is not relevant, as they are anecdotal.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Well said Bob! I"d share a hunting camp with you anytime!

@Doug Hamilton
And you would be more than welcome as long as it was seperate beds.
Ha Ha Ha Ha
Bob