Fell in love with a working girl

[redriverjake]

I wouldn’t expect you not to fall in love she’s an angel

Thank you, sir. I have to agree with you.

 

[redriverjake]

I agree slowing current powder (I think federal uses 4350?) with fewer grains will not solve it. He needs to change powders to get this gun to regulate at acceptable pressure and velocity. Rl15, 3031, 4831, maybe even rl19.

Lots of load development ahead, but it will likely shoot lights out with one of the loads.

I appreciate the insight. When I have more time to tinker with it this fall I will start doing development myself but until then I have to rely on a professional custom loader to get me something that will work for the season. Thanks again.

 

[rookhawk]

I appreciate the insight. When I have more time to tinker with it this fall I will start doing development myself but until then I have to rely on a professional custom loader to get me something that will work for the season. Thanks again.

Without sending someone the gun, or developing loads yourself, you are unlikely to succeed. For $300 A box of 20, you’re going to get a variety of ammunition sent to you that will not regulate. Just my take on it, here’s why:

That gun was surely re-regulated in 1989. Alternatively, it could have been worthless junk that was tarted up for sale and will never hit the broadside of a barn. <- I don’t believe that.

In 1989 the choices of 470NE ammo in the UK could have been: Wolfgang Romey, RWS, Hirtenberger, Westley Richards, or Federal. All of those are problems, because only one is still in existence (Federal) and their recipe in 1989 is not at all the same as the current production recipe.

So we do not know what load was used for re-regulation, And the barrels are not the original length and regulation so we can’t just say a prayer and buy some Kynoch ammo to try either. (Kynoch was bankrupt in 1989, not even considered for re-regulation).

We know we can’t overburden the gun with excessive pressure, and we know we must use a 500gr soft, but that leaves us with more than a dozen potential powders at various velocities, plus a variety of case fillers that change pressure and regulation as well.

You’ll run out of money before Lonnie at Superior finds you the correct load for that gun. An expert needs the gun so they can load up 2 cartridges at a time, go shoot, run back to the shop and take notes, then decide to alter the load with the same powder, same powder with different filler, or to axe that path altogether and move on to a different burn rate powder.

 

[redriverjake]

Without sending someone the gun, or developing loads yourself, you are unlikely to succeed. For $300 A box of 20, you’re going to get a variety of ammunition sent to you that will not regulate. Just my take on it, here’s why:

That gun was surely re-regulated in 1989. Alternatively, it could have been worthless junk that was tarted up for sale and will never hit the broadside of a barn. <- I don’t believe that.

In 1989 the choices of 470NE ammo in the UK could have been: Wolfgang Romey, RWS, Hirtenberger, Westley Richards, or Federal. All of those are problems, because only one is still in existence (Federal) and their recipe in 1989 is not at all the same as the current production recipe.

So we do not know what load was used for re-regulation, And the barrels are not the original length and regulation so we can’t just say a prayer and buy some Kynoch ammo to try either. (Kynoch was bankrupt in 1989, not even considered for re-regulation).

We know we can’t overburden the gun with excessive pressure, and we know we must use a 500gr soft, but that leaves us with more than a dozen potential powders at various velocities, plus a variety of case fillers that change pressure and regulation as well.

You’ll run out of money before Lonnie at Superior finds you the correct load for that gun. An expert needs the gun so they can load up 2 cartridges at a time, go shoot, run back to the shop and take notes, then decide to alter the load with the same powder, same powder with different filler, or to axe that path altogether and move on to a different burn rate powder.

That's a lot of very good information and I greatly appreciate you taking the time to share. Another question, would it be a viable solution to chose a modern load, such as Hornady or the like, and then have the rifle re-regulated ? In that scenario I would be able to use off the shelf ammo and have something that I could easily duplicate myself when able.

I spend at least half of my year in Africa and then some again in Australia. I travel with my guns and ammo so if my hand loads are lost I can usally find some in local gun shops. Hornady and Federal seem to be the most popular abroad in large rifle calibers including the big nitros. However, my guy in Lusaka can source just about anything. The man is a bit of a wizard when it comes to such things.

Anyhow, my desire is to put this rifle to work. Proper work that it was made for so, if it's possible, I need to find the most logical and practical way to make that happen.

 

[Scott CWO]

She's nothing fancy but but I sure do love her lines. Holland Royals and Westly Droplocks are fine as wine but I'll take a long bar Webley every time. She's an old girl with not much makeup on anymore, her case colors long ago rubbed away but she still locks up smooth and tight and her tubes are clean as a whistle. She speaks loud and clear but her stories of adventures long ago are hers and hers alone. Even now she whispers to me of a yearning to return to wild lands where great beasts still roam and I will acquiesce to her subtle request.

Army & Navy .470 NE
25" barrels
Ejectors
1 standing rear/ 2 folding rear sights
Ivory front bead

View attachment 596309View attachment 596310View attachment 596311

I’m sorry that you’re unhappy with the rifle so I will do you a favor and take it off your hands!

 

[rookhawk]

That's a lot of very good information and I greatly appreciate you taking the time to share. Another question, would it be a viable solution to chose a modern load, such as Hornady or the like, and then have the rifle re-regulated ? In that scenario I would be able to use off the shelf ammo and have something that I could easily duplicate myself when able.

I spend at least half of my year in Africa and then some again in Australia. I travel with my guns and ammo so if my hand loads are lost I can usally find some in local gun shops. Hornady and Federal seem to be the most popular abroad in large rifle calibers including the big nitros. However, my guy in Lusaka can source just about anything. The man is a bit of a wizard when it comes to such things.

Anyhow, my desire is to put this rifle to work. Proper work that it was made for so, if it's possible, I need to find the most logical and practical way to make that happen.

The problems with using factory loads are many, but it will also cost you a fortune.

Lets play this out:

You select a factory load. They literally tear the barrels apart, build a new regulating wedge, braze the ribs and sights back together, and they then try to get it to work. It works half-ass at best in our scenario. Then you have to buy new sights for the gun, and they have to be filed in. Then the gun needs to be reblacked afterwards. You’ve now spent $3000-$4000 re-regulating the barrels to a factory load that doesn’t work well. Oh, and then 5 seconds after you do so, the ammo manufacturer either discontinues the load your gun is made for, which happens often.

It’s a lot of expense to do this the wrong way, hoping you get the factory load to work. You’ll only find out if it will work several thousand dollars into the project of taking this working gun and turning it into a potentially non-working gun.

Then it comes to the Question of which factory ammo would you delude yourself into thinking is safe for your gun? This gun was made to shoot a cup-and-core bullet. That‘s not a terribly big deal if you’re only shooting softs, but if you want to use it for PH work, or elephants, you’re going to want a FMJ lead core solid which is what the barrels were designed to tolerate when the rifle was made. What FMJ cup-and-core solids exist in the world today? Woodleigh traditional solids and Hornady DGS. At present, which factory ammo exists with either of those two solids? Only the Hornady Ammo. What are the odds re-regulating the barrels will provide reasonable accuracy with the hornady DGS load after you spend $4000 or more dollars and wait 1-2 years? 30% odds?

So the frugal, higher success, correct way forward is to regulate the load, not the barrels. For <$1000 someone qualified can take that gun, and the ideal bullets in FMJ solids and say woodleigh PP or Swift A-Frame softs, and build you regulating loads. At the end of that effort, you’ll be handed test targets, a proven recipe, and a humble supply of perhaps 20 loaded rounds. At that point, you can have someone duplicate those loads at volume, or you can load them to that prescriptive recipe yourself.

Given enough time, usually ten years, ALL double rifles require hand loads because the factory regulated load is discontinued or altered, ruining accuracy.

Add to these details, the factory loads are incorrect for the gun’s metallurgy. Modern factory loads (except Kynoch) are typically loaded at 2150FPS to 2250FPS because ballisticians don’t know the first thing about double rifles. Not only are these loads way too fast, but they use powders that do not replicate the powder burn rate the rifle wanted when built either. (Gun was made for extinct stranded cordite). The gun, when new, was made to operate at a velocity of around 2050 to 2075 fps from a 28” barrel. At the shorter 25” barrel length, its probably would achieve regulation at about 30-40 fps less than that.

You need Lance Hendershot or Ken Owen to agree to take the job. They need the rifle for a month. They need to build you a regulating load using custom ammo. IF they fail in their endeavor (10% odds), then you’re forced to spend sizable money tearing the barrels apart and re-regulating the barrels.

My batting average getting regulating loads developed that shoot exceptionally well? 100%
My batting average of owning a double rifle that shoots off the shelf ammo exceptionally well? Just a single rifle, made in modern times, that included 2 cases of its ammo upon purchase.

 

[VertigoBE]

@redriverjake congratulations on a fine double rifle! She is a beauty.

And listen carefully to our @rookhawk and @Red Leg , they know what they are talking about and will save you money in the long term

 

[redriverjake]

The problems with using factory loads are many, but it will also cost you a fortune.

Lets play this out:

You select a factory load. They literally tear the barrels apart, build a new regulating wedge, braze the ribs and sights back together, and they then try to get it to work. It works half-ass at best in our scenario. Then you have to buy new sights for the gun, and they have to be filed in. Then the gun needs to be reblacked afterwards. You’ve now spent $3000-$4000 re-regulating the barrels to a factory load that doesn’t work well. Oh, and then 5 seconds after you do so, the ammo manufacturer either discontinues the load your gun is made for, which happens often.

It’s a lot of expense to do this the wrong way, hoping you get the factory load to work. You’ll only find out if it will work several thousand dollars into the project of taking this working gun and turning it into a potentially non-working gun.

Then it comes to the Question of which factory ammo would you delude yourself into thinking is safe for your gun? This gun was made to shoot a cup-and-core bullet. That‘s not a terribly big deal if you’re only shooting softs, but if you want to use it for PH work, or elephants, you’re going to want a FMJ lead core solid which is what the barrels were designed to tolerate when the rifle was made. What FMJ cup-and-core solids exist in the world today? Woodleigh traditional solids and Hornady DGS. At present, which factory ammo exists with either of those two solids? Only the Hornady Ammo. What are the odds re-regulating the barrels will provide reasonable accuracy with the hornady DGS load after you spend $4000 or more dollars and wait 1-2 years? 30% odds?

So the frugal, higher success, correct way forward is to regulate the load, not the barrels. For <$1000 someone qualified can take that gun, and the ideal bullets in FMJ solids and say woodleigh PP or Swift A-Frame softs, and build you regulating loads. At the end of that effort, you’ll be handed test targets, a proven recipe, and a humble supply of perhaps 20 loaded rounds. At that point, you can have someone duplicate those loads at volume, or you can load them to that prescriptive recipe yourself.

Given enough time, usually ten years, ALL double rifles require hand loads because the factory regulated load is discontinued or altered, ruining accuracy.

Add to these details, the factory loads are incorrect for the gun’s metallurgy. Modern factory loads (except Kynoch) are typically loaded at 2150FPS to 2250FPS because ballisticians don’t know the first thing about double rifles. Not only are these loads way too fast, but they use powders that do not replicate the powder burn rate the rifle wanted when built either. (Gun was made for extinct stranded cordite). The gun, when new, was made to operate at a velocity of around 2050 to 2075 fps from a 28” barrel. At the shorter 25” barrel length, its probably would achieve regulation at about 30-40 fps less than that.

You need Lance Hendershot or Ken Owen to agree to take the job. They need the rifle for a month. They need to build you a regulating load using custom ammo. IF they fail in their endeavor (10% odds), then you’re forced to spend sizable money tearing the barrels apart and re-regulating the barrels.

My batting average getting regulating loads developed that shoot exceptionally well? 100%
My batting average of owning a double rifle that shoots off the shelf ammo exceptionally well? Just a single rifle, made in modern times, that included 2 cases of its ammo upon purchase.

Again, I appreciate your taking the time to share wisdom and lay things out in a very clear manner. I just git off the phone with Mr. Owen and arraged to send him the rifle if the stuff from Superior doesn't work out. Ken is a very pleasant gentleman to speak with. I look forward to continuing this journey and eventually having the confidence in the rifle to get it back into the field.

 

[norfolk shooter]

Congrats bro. I await the day such a rifle graces my safe. Go and drop game with her now as thats where she belongs

 

[Rubberhead]

No Little Blue Pill needed...

 

[redriverjake]

Congrats bro. I await the day such a rifle graces my safe. Go and drop game with her now as thats where she belongs

Thanks Bwana. That's exactly what I plan to do just as soon as I get her shooting properly. These old girls can be picky about their diet.

 

[Daniel Cary]

Really well written, until I meet such a woman, perhaps a future ex-wife. That's a beautiful catch. I know nothing about them, but simply love Steve Barnette's examples.

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

The problems with using factory loads are many, but it will also cost you a fortune.

Lets play this out:

You select a factory load. They literally tear the barrels apart, build a new regulating wedge, braze the ribs and sights back together, and they then try to get it to work. It works half-ass at best in our scenario. Then you have to buy new sights for the gun, and they have to be filed in. Then the gun needs to be reblacked afterwards. You’ve now spent $3000-$4000 re-regulating the barrels to a factory load that doesn’t work well. Oh, and then 5 seconds after you do so, the ammo manufacturer either discontinues the load your gun is made for, which happens often.

It’s a lot of expense to do this the wrong way, hoping you get the factory load to work. You’ll only find out if it will work several thousand dollars into the project of taking this working gun and turning it into a potentially non-working gun.

Then it comes to the Question of which factory ammo would you delude yourself into thinking is safe for your gun? This gun was made to shoot a cup-and-core bullet. That‘s not a terribly big deal if you’re only shooting softs, but if you want to use it for PH work, or elephants, you’re going to want a FMJ lead core solid which is what the barrels were designed to tolerate when the rifle was made. What FMJ cup-and-core solids exist in the world today? Woodleigh traditional solids and Hornady DGS. At present, which factory ammo exists with either of those two solids? Only the Hornady Ammo. What are the odds re-regulating the barrels will provide reasonable accuracy with the hornady DGS load after you spend $4000 or more dollars and wait 1-2 years? 30% odds?

So the frugal, higher success, correct way forward is to regulate the load, not the barrels. For <$1000 someone qualified can take that gun, and the ideal bullets in FMJ solids and say woodleigh PP or Swift A-Frame softs, and build you regulating loads. At the end of that effort, you’ll be handed test targets, a proven recipe, and a humble supply of perhaps 20 loaded rounds. At that point, you can have someone duplicate those loads at volume, or you can load them to that prescriptive recipe yourself.

Given enough time, usually ten years, ALL double rifles require hand loads because the factory regulated load is discontinued or altered, ruining accuracy.

Add to these details, the factory loads are incorrect for the gun’s metallurgy. Modern factory loads (except Kynoch) are typically loaded at 2150FPS to 2250FPS because ballisticians don’t know the first thing about double rifles. Not only are these loads way too fast, but they use powders that do not replicate the powder burn rate the rifle wanted when built either. (Gun was made for extinct stranded cordite). The gun, when new, was made to operate at a velocity of around 2050 to 2075 fps from a 28” barrel. At the shorter 25” barrel length, its probably would achieve regulation at about 30-40 fps less than that.

You need Lance Hendershot or Ken Owen to agree to take the job. They need the rifle for a month. They need to build you a regulating load using custom ammo. IF they fail in their endeavor (10% odds), then you’re forced to spend sizable money tearing the barrels apart and re-regulating the barrels.

My batting average getting regulating loads developed that shoot exceptionally well? 100%
My batting average of owning a double rifle that shoots off the shelf ammo exceptionally well? Just a single rifle, made in modern times, that included 2 cases of its ammo upon purchase.

Great advice. I have a 2023 production Chapuis 470, that was ordered in 2022. I didn’t know before ordering it, but it was regulated with Federal Woodleighs. Guess what load was discontinued in Jan of 2023, before I even received the rifle …. Good news is I have projectiles, brass, and know the load recipe to replicate it.

 

[rookhawk]

Again, I appreciate your taking the time to share wisdom and lay things out in a very clear manner. I just git off the phone with Mr. Owen and arraged to send him the rifle if the stuff from Superior doesn't work out. Ken is a very pleasant gentleman to speak with. I look forward to continuing this journey and eventually having the confidence in the rifle to get it back into the field.

Sorry if I seemed firm or beyond confident in my proclamations. I wanted to scare you away from making bad decisions with what i believe will be a good gun.

There is no person in North America that I believe has a better shot of getting exceptional regulation of that rifle than Ken Owen. He will also diagnose if there are other minor issues that need addressing along the way. I remember I sent him a double once and he told me the back trigger sucked, so he fixed it…$30? (Should have been $200)

At any rate, whatever you spend with Ken is equity in the value of the gun. His regulation targets and the recipe accompanying the gun is as close to a guaranty if you someday decide to sell the rifle.

Ken works quickly, you should have some good news to report back to the group in 2-3 weeks.

 

[redriverjake]

Sorry if I seemed firm or beyond confident in my proclamations. I wanted to scare you away from making bad decisions with what i believe will be a good gun.

There is no person in North America that I believe has a better shot of getting exceptional regulation of that rifle than Ken Owen. He will also diagnose if there are other minor issues that need addressing along the way. I remember I sent him a double once and he told me the back trigger sucked, so he fixed it…$30? (Should have been $200)

At any rate, whatever you spend with Ken is equity in the value of the gun. His regulation targets and the recipe accompanying the gun is as close to a guaranty if you someday decide to sell the rifle.

Ken works quickly, you should have some good news to report back to the group in 2-3 weeks.

No apologies needed, my friend. I prefer the direct and detailed information you've given here. It has help me to gain a better understanding of many things pertaining to these older rifles and I hope it helps others as well. Too many people these days will beat around a bush, be overly politically correct, and everything else except clear and concise.

My conversation with Mr. Owen was a brief one but I can understand why he is held in high regard in these matters. When I explained to him the situation, he had already began to work the problems in his head and gave me a general idea of his plan to sort them out. I look forward to speaking and working with him in the near future. Thank you again.

 

[Lone Star Bluegrass]

No apologies needed, my friend. I prefer the direct and detailed information you've given here. It has help me to gain a better understanding of many things pertaining to these older rifles and I hope it helps others as well. Too many people these days will beat around a bush, be overly politically correct, and everything else except clear and concise.

My conversation with Mr. Owen was a brief one but I can understand why he is held in high regard in these matters. When I explained to him the situation, he had already began to work the problems in his head and gave me a general idea of his plan to sort them out. I look forward to speaking and working with him in the near future. Thank you again.

Make sure you tell us how this story ends, please!

 

[PCC600]

There are best grade ANCSL guns out there as well. It was effectively a buying group designed for the benefit of the British Armed Services akin to the PX at an American military base. If a general or admiral wanted a best grade Holland/Purdey/Boss type of gun, ANCSL may have had a wholesale relationship with one or more of the best makers that allowed the officer to get a better value on the gun than a member of the general public.

We cannot assume ANCSL automatically meant “field grade”, there are wonderful exceptions and most of them are “mid-grade” or better.

One of the finest double rifles I ever shot was an Army&Navy sidelock in 577 NE . A best rifle in every possible way .