Fair Chase hunts in South Africa

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

NO IT DOES NOT EXIST IN SA, SOONER OR LATER THERE WILL BE ï¾€ BARRIER RESTRICTING NATURAL MIGRATION. (high fence)

My best always.

 

[ChrisT]

I'm afraid you're wrong Chris. I'm writing this in good spirit too, but your diagram and argument are all theoretical arguments. As I mentioned I've done this argument to death elsewhere, and people often mention rivers, roads and city limits etc as natural 'fencing' to back up the same argument.

In the real world, here in the UK we have populations of muntjac and other species of invasive deer. The 'munties' as we affectionately call them escaped from a private collection and have spread through many counties (states if you're american). They've increased in number massively and are spreading throughout the UK. It's only a matter of a few years before they'll be found in Scotland and then with the habitat there, their numbers really will explode and many deer hunters can't wait for their arrival.

So if a species like Muntjac can travel from the home counties north, through Lincolnshire, into Yorkshire and continue to head north on their way upto Scotland, I'm not sure how you can say the hunting here in the UK is fenced...

You can draw similar paralells from our populations of invasive sika deer too, Their spread is a majot threat to the genetic integrity of our native red deer (Cervus elaphus, what you guys call elk) as they hybridise. Their expansion which has not been limited by any of the factors you mention has resulted in hybridisation with the closely related sika deer and there is now some sources questioning the genetic integrity of all red deer on mainland Scotland.

So the next time I hunt reds in Scotland, I might spook a deer and have it run off the property I have rights to shoot on, it will easily clear a small stock fence intended to keep sheep and cattle in and run onto an area I can not shoot over. So is this fenced / canned hunting? No. The animal is not restricted in it's movements. Is it 'fair chase'? It could wonder all the way down to the South Coast of England if it wanted to, so I'd say yes.

So, my bit of forest in Perthshire is as far as I'm concerned, unfenced and fair chase. My question is really, does a similar property exist in RSA? And I only ask as people have mentioned they do, but I've never seen hunts advertised in RSA on this kind of area. There is no need to read anything more into my question.

Now, the scottish forest holds a large head of red and roe deer. Parts of it are large and impenetrable with lots of natural food so the deer live on this property year round. They have no need to move around. We just need to keep the numbers in check and manage them and it all works well. I would have thought somewhere similar exists in RSA? And if so, where?

MJ,

I cannot see how theory is really all that much different from practice in this instance but let us leave it there as this was not really my original point... It is an unfortunate reality that many foreigners have the wrong perception of hunting in the RSA and this perception cannot be changed in this thread. At the same token I will also admit that this perception might to some extent have been created by some of my fellow countrymen who lured clients over and had them hunt in an environment and under circumstances that was not only unfamiliar to them but maybe also unacceptable to them. This is regretful.

You are using the example of muntjac that are not deterred by fences. Well, as I have stated in earlier posts, there are many African species that aren't deterred by fences either - Kudu, Impala, Eland to name but a few... In the real world, areas where these species will naturally travel to and settle are determined by habitat not by fences. And now I am not even talking about invasive species. I am talking about species that are endemic to the various parts of our country.

Invasive species generally tend to go wherever the heck they want (also in search of their preferred habitat). And whether they manage to do so by crawling through a hole in a fence or whether they jump that same fence because they can is not the issue. The point remains that some species can be contained by fences and some not.

But without getting too technical about this, let us get back to your question and let me answer as follows:

If an area with stock fences can be considered as unfenced from a hunting perspective I can reply without a doubt YES and I can even recommend some to you. I, have access to "unfenced" areas in Kwa Zulu Natal, the Eastern Cape, Free State and Limpopo and I am sure that there are many other Outfitters that have access to similar areas in the same and different provinces. As for your question why you don't see these areas advertised - have a look at the "Hunting Deals" page on this forum. I actually offered a free range hunt on there just the other day.

As I don't want to use your thread to promote myself I would be happy to provide you with more detail on these areas privately but rest assured they do exist.

Best,

 

[spike.t]

NO IT DOES NOT EXIST IN SA, SOONER OR LATER THERE WILL BE ï¾€ BARRIER RESTRICTING NATURAL MIGRATION. (high fence)

My best always.

Jaco time to have a :draught: and a deep breath , not at the same time of course this is a subject that seems to frustrate both of us !hbrother:

 

[owenowen]

in SA the high fences just keep the jumpers in such as impala, kudu,eland etc... Even they still manage to move around through the odd hole that the worthogs make on a daily basis or just through damaged fences. All the other species do move freely as they wish. I have seen in a number of places in SA how new species have move into different regions so its proof that they do move regardless of the fences.. cheers

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

Jaco time to have a :draught: and a deep breath , not at the same time of course this is a subject that seems to frustrate both of us !hbrother:

Very true spike I might just kill a case!!!

My best always.

 

[MJ75]

NO IT DOES NOT EXIST IN SA, SOONER OR LATER THERE WILL BE ï¾€ BARRIER RESTRICTING NATURAL MIGRATION. (high fence)

My best always.

So if it does not, why is another outfitter claiming it does?

 

[35bore]

So if it does not, why is another outfitter claiming it does?

False advertising, maybe???? You are debating with the guys that live there, If you won't take their word for it, should this thread even continue? Read the posts', if game escapes from a high fence area, then it is free range, otherwise there is a fence. Whether it is 10ft high 5ft. high or the edge of Johannesburg, it's fenced/contained. The obvious point here is that some of these properties are large "very large" the game on the property does not know the difference.... The only ones making a fuss over it are the humans.

 

[sestoppelman]

If we take it pretty much as a fact that most if not all hunting in RSA is done with some form of barrier on the actual hunting, or adjacent properties it sort of becomes a moot point and the hunter can choose one or another place based on perhaps being "high fenced" or low. Every hunting area has some form of boundary. I have only hunted RSA once and there were fences on all properties and I knew this going in. I simply made up my own mind as to what would be an acceptable shooting situation. For me that was an arbitrary decision to not shoot something (major at least), right next to or preferably not even close to a high fence if that fence would have impeded the escape of an animal who otherwise could have run off. As 35bore says, the biggest fuss is made by we the hunters and the animals largely dont care about fences and most are able to jump, burrow or plow thru any fence. I have seen sable go thru fences like they weren't even there! Kudu and eland jump over a 6' fence with disdain. The smaller critters go under, over and thru all fences so how important is it really? It is the reality in RSA, much of Zim, Namibia and perhaps other coutries. If you want a totally wild (if such even exists anymore), head for parts of Tanzania, Zambia, some of Botswana, perhaps Mozambique and much of West and Central Africa. If you want to hunt RSA - figure on seeing some form of fencing. Its a fact of life.

 

[MJ75]

MJ,

I cannot see how theory is really all that much different from practice in this instance but let us leave it there as this was not really my original point... It is an unfortunate reality that many foreigners have the wrong perception of hunting in the RSA and this perception cannot be changed in this thread. At the same token I will also admit that this perception might to some extent have been created by some of my fellow countrymen who lured clients over and had them hunt in an environment and under circumstances that was not only unfamiliar to them but maybe also unacceptable to them. This is regretful.

You are using the example of muntjac that are not deterred by fences. Well, as I have stated in earlier posts, there are many African species that aren't deterred by fences either - Kudu, Impala, Eland to name but a few... In the real world, areas where these species will naturally travel to and settle are determined by habitat not by fences. And now I am not even talking about invasive species. I am talking about species that are endemic to the various parts of our country.

Invasive species generally tend to go wherever the heck they want (also in search of their preferred habitat). And whether they manage to do so by crawling through a hole in a fence or whether they jump that same fence because they can is not the issue. The point remains that some species can be contained by fences and some not.

But without getting too technical about this, let us get back to your question and let me answer as follows:

If an area with stock fences can be considered as unfenced from a hunting perspective I can reply without a doubt YES and I can even recommend some to you. I, have access to "unfenced" areas in Kwa Zulu Natal, the Eastern Cape, Free State and Limpopo and I am sure that there are many other Outfitters that have access to similar areas in the same and different provinces. As for your question why you don't see these areas advertised - have a look at the "Hunting Deals" page on this forum. I actually offered a free range hunt on there just the other day.

As I don't want to use your thread to promote myself I would be happy to provide you with more detail on these areas privately but rest assured they do exist.

Best,

I think we're way off topic now. Remember the original, opening post was just to ask if there are unfenced areas in RSA as I'd seen people claim this but was under the impression everything was fenced in. People have read far too much into that post, which is my fault as I used the phrase 'fair chase' and opened a can of worms.

As for perception, here many see RSA as the best value hunting destination in Africa. Possibly even the world. But yeah, the fencing situation does not do RSA any favours when it comes to this perception. When I first hunted RSA I started in a large private area around 30.000 acres. The animals are truly wild and would run for the hills if they saw us. Hell, my first stalk was for a blue wildebeest. We drove to an area, walked for fifteen minutes then climbed and scrambled up a really steep hill coming out onto a plateaux. In front of me was around 60 blue wildebeest and a hundred blesbok behind them. We crawled forward behind some rocks for cover. The PH and tracker selected an animal for me to shoot as I set up the shot. I remember clear as day, thinking this is too easy. Bearing in mind I'm used to hunting deer in remote parts of Scotland, this was very different. And I was diappointed at the relative ease of taking an animal so easily. But life is rarely simple, before I pulled the trigger a pair of guinea fowl moved out of the vegetation to my right hand side, they saw us, spooked and made one hell of a noise as guinea fowl do! The wildebeest charged off, and despite us following them that evening and the following morning, it would not be until my third stalk for this species that I'd take one. The SCI class animal in my avatar. I should add that from entering the fence on this property, because of the terrain it took almost an hour to drive to the house. On the way I saw with my own eyes a mountain reedbuck and a springbok go through the fencing.

I was also told how the PH would love warthog on his property but because they'd spread so quickly his neighbours would be mad as they absolutely do not want them on their properties. So at that time they were considering introducing zebra and eland, but with the latter, they'd need to make changes to the fencing to ensure they didn't escape as they can leap 6' high despite their huge size. So in short, I do understand the points some are so eager to make. Due to unforseen circumstances I also hunted a tiny concession for an impala. This was a mistake, you could see the fences regularly on this second property. But it was my first trip so I've put it down to experience. So, in my opinion it is this kind of small property responsible for the perceptions of foreigners you mention. It's true I am now wary of where and what I hunt. I won't ever choose an outfit without doing a lot more homework to ensure I won't have the same experience as the second property I mentioned. If I'm brutally honest, I think I'll eventually stop hunting RSA and look towards other countries which are 'unfenced'.

I used the muntjac as you implied hunting in the UK is fenced. There may be a few fenced forestry blocks, and even a couple of outfits similar to the canned hunt operations you have in Texas, but these are very much in the minority. I used the muntie example to show that mostly the animals are truly wild and truly fair chase. I mentioned the reds in our forest to illustrate my understanding that without fences, animals still may remain on one property as they have no need to move.

Thank you for your kind offer. And for taking the time to reply in detail. It is appreciated. But please remember the whole thread was only started to identify if unfenced (for the purposes of hunting fair chase) areas do exist in RSA,.

 

[MJ75]

False advertising, maybe???? You are debating with the guys that live there, If you won't take their word for it, should this thread even continue? Read the posts', if game escapes from a high fence area, then it is free range, otherwise there is a fence. Whether it is 10ft high 5ft. high or the edge of Johannesburg, it's fenced/contained. The obvious point here is that some of these properties are large "very large" the game on the property does not know the difference.... The only ones making a fuss over it are the humans.

I'm not sure it is I who should "read the posts". You have two outfitters on this thread "that live there" and are contradicting one another. So I don't know if the thread needs to continue after my previous post, but I'm not sure you need to continue posting on it if you're misunderstanding it.

The real problem here is because we're discussing this on an internet forum. If we were all in a bar, and if Jaco hadn't drunk it dry, we'd all hear the tone in peoples voice, their facial expressions and you'd cover a lot more ground far quicker. Some one or two line posts are rarely helpful because there is no real explanation to the point being made. Another major problem when it comes to discussing fair chase and canned hunting is that there is no universally accepted definition of either and too many variables. Add to that any hidden agenda of stake holders in these kinds of operations and these kinds of threads are one big recipe for disaster!

So do I consider hunting stags in our forest which will probably live all of their lives in our property fair chase? yes. Do I consider Muntjac hunting in the UK fair chase? Yes. Do I consider my wildebeest hunt in RSA fair chase on a fenced 30,000 acre property, yes. Do I consider my impala hunt in an 'extended back yard', hell no! Do I wish I could hunt in RSA without fences, yes! Do I understand that that would be completely unrealistic? Yes! But if people are talking about unfenced hunts in RSA it won't stop me wanting to try and fins where they are. Due to peoples perceptions of RSA hunting, then maybe some of the outfitters on here should look to tap the european market by using these areas as their main selling point. Trust me some of the sporting agents in the UK do a really bad job of this!

 

[ChrisT]

I don't believe Jaco and I are contradicting each other at all. We may have used different ways / arguments to try and bring the same point across but we are on the same page as far as I am concerned.

And with respect; it seems there is only one contributor over here who does not get that point.

Good Hunting

 

[MJ75]

I don't believe Jaco and I are contradicting each other at all. We may have used different ways / arguments to try and bring the same point across but we are on the same page as far as I am concerned.

And with respect; it seems there is only one contributor over here who does not get that point.

Good Hunting

Perhaps you missed post 21 and the context it was written in? Trust me, using the caps lock key add nothing to an argument! lol

I understand the points made about fair chase perfectly. Perhaps you misunderstood or missed post 31?

As I've posted previously the same old argument has been done to death elsewhere There is nothing new on this thread in regards to what may or may not constitute 'fair chase'. I'm not convinced you completely understand the reason for me posting the thread in the first place. I'll repost it on another forum and be far more specific so we may avoid going over the same old ground again. And if we do, Namibia it is! Incidentally there are four of us. Two have hunted RSA before, the other two have not and don't particularly care if there are fences or not. That's their business, but I reckon when they inevitably plan their second trip they will be far more specific in what they want. But I'm off topic again. Thanks all for your input, but it's time for me to leave this thread alone. Cheers.

 

[Red Leg]

If I may make a suggestion to MJ, who I suspect is wondering why he asked the question, is to take a look at Namibia. You can find hunting operations which are the traditional "game farms" contained by high fences, cattle ranch country which has only cattle fencing (low fence) which is not a barrier to game movement, and tribal areas such as the Caprivi and Bushmanland which have no fencing at all. As others have posted, "free range" country will be largely limited to "native" species. For instance, a lot of waterbuck come out of Namibia, but you have to go to the Eastern Caprivi to find any which are technically "free range".

I suspect the real issue is one of expectation bumping up against 21st century reality. Hunting a game farm in SA can be a wonderful adventure, but it does have more in common with an exoctic game ranch in Texas than the Africa of Ruark or Hemingway. It is, in part, why my last two and next hunts include dangerous game in "remote areas"'. It is more expensive, and one only sees a tenth of the PG one would see on a game ranch. However, every morning you are absolutely sure that you aren't in Texas any more.

 

[Red Leg]

And MJ I missed your final post. As you say, Namibia.

 

[sestoppelman]

I think we're way off topic now. Remember the original, opening post was just to ask if there are unfenced areas in RSA as I'd seen people claim this but was under the impression everything was fenced in. People have read far too much into that post, which is my fault as I used the phrase 'fair chase' and opened a can of worms.

As for perception, here many see RSA as the best value hunting destination in Africa. Possibly even the world. But yeah, the fencing situation does not do RSA any favours when it comes to this perception. When I first hunted RSA I started in a large private area around 30.000 acres. The animals are truly wild and would run for the hills if they saw us. Hell, my first stalk was for a blue wildebeest. We drove to an area, walked for fifteen minutes then climbed and scrambled up a really steep hill coming out onto a plateaux. In front of me was around 60 blue wildebeest and a hundred blesbok behind them. We crawled forward behind some rocks for cover. The PH and tracker selected an animal for me to shoot as I set up the shot. I remember clear as day, thinking this is too easy. Bearing in mind I'm used to hunting deer in remote parts of Scotland, this was very different. And I was diappointed at the relative ease of taking an animal so easily. But life is rarely simple, before I pulled the trigger a pair of guinea fowl moved out of the vegetation to my right hand side, they saw us, spooked and made one hell of a noise as guinea fowl do! The wildebeest charged off, and despite us following them that evening and the following morning, it would not be until my third stalk for this species that I'd take one. The SCI class animal in my avatar. I should add that from entering the fence on this property, because of the terrain it took almost an hour to drive to the house. On the way I saw with my own eyes a mountain reedbuck and a springbok go through the fencing.

I was also told how the PH would love warthog on his property but because they'd spread so quickly his neighbours would be mad as they absolutely do not want them on their properties. So at that time they were considering introducing zebra and eland, but with the latter, they'd need to make changes to the fencing to ensure they didn't escape as they can leap 6' high despite their huge size. So in short, I do understand the points some are so eager to make. Due to unforseen circumstances I also hunted a tiny concession for an impala. This was a mistake, you could see the fences regularly on this second property. But it was my first trip so I've put it down to experience. So, in my opinion it is this kind of small property responsible for the perceptions of foreigners you mention. It's true I am now wary of where and what I hunt. I won't ever choose an outfit without doing a lot more homework to ensure I won't have the same experience as the second property I mentioned. If I'm brutally honest, I think I'll eventually stop hunting RSA and look towards other countries which are 'unfenced'.

I used the muntjac as you implied hunting in the UK is fenced. There may be a few fenced forestry blocks, and even a couple of outfits similar to the canned hunt operations you have in Texas, but these are very much in the minority. I used the muntie example to show that mostly the animals are truly wild and truly fair chase. I mentioned the reds in our forest to illustrate my understanding that without fences, animals still may remain on one property as they have no need to move.

Thank you for your kind offer. And for taking the time to reply in detail. It is appreciated. But please remember the whole thread was only started to identify if unfenced (for the purposes of hunting fair chase) areas do exist in RSA,.

Despite protestations to the contrary, his last paragraph still seems to say that fair chase and fences cannot be done together.

 

[MJ75]

And MJ I missed your final post. As you say, Namibia.

I think it may well be. Thanks for your posts.

Despite protestations to the contrary, his last paragraph still seems to say that fair chase and fences cannot be done together.

Unfenced meaning there are stock fences but don't affect game movements. You need to read CT's posts to get the jist of that one. I hope that clears thing up. Now, I really am off this thread for good!

 

[sestoppelman]

I read the whole thread. Thanks!

 

[MJ75]

And you reached the conclusion you did. That kind of proves my point in post 30.

 

[35bore]

And you reached the conclusion you did. That kind of proves my point in post 30.

My friend you are either drunk or you are intentionally trying to piss folks off and keep this thread alive. Everyone on this post understands and accepts the way things are in SA, why can't you. If you don't like the "fence fact" there are many other countries in Africa (previously mentioned) that would provide you with your version of fair chase. Enjoy the hunt, regardless of where it is located.

 

[MJ75]

My friend you are either drunk or you are intentionally trying to piss folks off and keep this thread alive. Everyone on this post understands and accepts the way things are in SA, why can't you. If you don't like the "fence fact" there are many other countries in Africa (previously mentioned) that would provide you with your version of fair chase. Enjoy the hunt, regardless of where it is located.

35bore, Jerome is welcome to lock this thread. I do accept the way things are in RSA. That should be very apparent from my previous posts. So why you think I can't accept this I find a bit odd. But it's not important. As I said earlier fair chase can involve fences. I don't really see the point in your post? That's not written to piss you off as you suggest. Again, post 30, the internet forum is a real crappy way of having a discussion.