Experience & Value Versus Cost

[siml]

@PHOENIX PHIL , you right about people should read the original post correctly. Referring to the buffalo hunt, I read what the OP wanted. I passed on the best area I think for buffalo in Mozambique to him, gave him the outfitters prices and email. Did my bit to help, we don't always need a piece of the pie.

We as sponsors appreciate Jerome/Wayne and what AH does for us. We want the site to work!!

I think what bugs us a little, but most of the time we just keep our mouths shut. When OP posts he looking for a certain hunt, then MR X says use Mr Y, he can organize anything. Mr Y might be able to organize anything, but will it be the quality the OP is looking for? None of us can specialize in all hunting, we all have strong and weak areas(talking species).

 

[Royal27]

Following on item 3, when you see a new thread that you think you could add to, read the original post thoroughly so that your reply will make sense. Before you hit the Post Reply button, re-read your reply once or twice and ask yourself if this is contributing to the OP's post. A thread that I believe James is referring to was recently posted was in regard to a buff hunt. The gent who posted specifically said he wanted a free range, unfenced buff hunt and in a country other than RSA. It didn't take long before there were those who replied pushing a RSA buff hunt. Why? Would I have liked to book the gent to a hunt at Serapa? Sure I would, and I believe I could've met his budget. But he specifically said he wanted it to be a free range hunt. I believe on Serapa's 46K acres it would not matter, but I'm not going to try an talk the man into something he doesn't want. I know the next time I head to a Toyota dealer to buy another Tundra if the salesman tries to talk me into a Tacoma because he either doesn't have what I want or didn't listen to know what I'm there for, I'm walking out and quickly.

At a quick count there were six posts suggesting the OP go to SA after he specifically said he wanted another country. The same OP posted a similar thread on another forum and received a bunch s suggestions for other countries as he had asked for, with one suggestion for Kruger, which was at least started with "I know you said no SA." Just reinforcing what Phil is suggesting and what I said earlier. We owe it to people to help them get what they want and not just what we've had. Now if someone wants something totally unrealistic in an area we owe it to them to re-direct, but not just because of a personal preference or experience. Just my opinion.

https://www.africahunting.com/threads/recommendations-for-buffalo-hunt.34891/page-2

5. AH I believe is supposed to be money making business for Jerome. It certainly isn't here for him to lose money. Part of what covers the cost to run this forum and by extension make money is the advertising that comes with sponsorship of the website. Sponsorship costs money, money which comes from a marketing budget. Sponsors need to realize a return on that investment. If there is no positive ROI, why would the sponsor renew? Why wouldn't they spend their marketing dollars somewhere else? I say this as there continues every so often to be criticism and/or what I'd call negative comments in hunt offers. I just don't understand that. If you don't like the offer, it's simple, don't buy it. But there's no reason to talk badly of the offer. If you do so, while it may not be your intent, you are in fact pushing that sponsor away from AH. Is that really something you want to do? There's a new Porsche dealer about 10 minutes from my house. I can't ever imagine I'll ever darken their doorway, much less buy one of their cars. But I'm quite happy to have them in my town, they employ people and I'm sure the city will realize some amount of revenue from their presence.

+1

No need to state negative personal opinions (often not fact based even) in sponsor offers. Legitimate questions about what is included is fine, but why post that you think a hunt can be found cheaper elsewhere???? I'd bet a large sum of money that I could go through every offer for the last year and find a cheaper hunt for the same animal somewhere. I'd likely get what I paid for, but it could certainly be done. Hunting is not a commodity and there are differences.

. What do you want AfricaHunting.com to be? I love this forum, have made many good friends from all across the USA as well as around the world. What makes me proud to be a part of this great group is the way we treat each other as a whole. This is by far the friendliest forum of any kind that I've ever been a part of. But honestly, it could be even better. In other forums, this place takes some criticism. This is for various reasons, many which I totally disagree with and wouldn't change AH to appease them. BUT.....the one thing we lack here is the overall experience that other forums have. When you post here, does your post invite that sort of experience to come in and stay, or is it inclined to push seasoned hunters away?

+200

I'm honestly not sure how to fix this and get the more experienced guys with 10,20, or 30 safaris to post here, but I sure wish they would. After three personal safaris I'm just starting to truly understand how little I know!

 

[sierraone]

Just a thought Royal....Maybe those guys that have been 20 times are too busy working so they can go again!!! And don't have time to post! But I fully agree with you that if a man has already decided he doesn't want to go to a certain country, and that is the only country I have hunted in, it's hard to see how I would have any advice for him...just a thought!

Just to add...I promise I know less than you!!!

 

[Royal27]

Just a thought Royal....Maybe those guys that have been 20 times are too busy working so they can go again!!! And don't have time to post! But I fully agree with you that if a man has already decided he doesn't want to go to a certain country, and that is the only country I have hunted in, it's hard to see how I would have any advice for him...just a thought!

Just to add...I promise I know less than you!!!

They post, but unfortunately not here. And to be clear, there are some I'm glad don't post here, but others I wish did.

 

[Wheels]

Excellent post @PHOENIX PHIL

#5 is one that really chaps me. Here is an individual trying run a small business, and a poster comes in and says you can get it cheaper somewhere else (even if it is apples to oranges) or they say it is not really that good of a deal.

I am all for having spirited discussion with disagreements as long as it is respectful. But it is classless insulting a guy who is trying to feed his family.

 

[375 Ruger Fan]

I saw a small sign in a high end jewelry store (owned by a relative) that read:
"Never economize on a luxury item."

Hunting, particularly African safari hunting, is a luxury item.

 

[BRICKBURN]

............ We owe it to people to help them get what they want and not just what we've had. .....

Simple question: Who are you really trying to help?

A Shill comes to mind.

No need to state negative personal opinions .. in offers. Legitimate questions about what is included is fine, but why post that you think a hunt can be found cheaper elsewhere???? ..............

IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT THE MONEY!

I'm honestly not sure how to fix this and get the more experienced guys with 10,20, or 30 safaris to post here, but I sure wish they would. ......

There are 10X the people reading than posting on ANY day. They are all welcome to post here. Some are comfortable, others not.

...........
I am all for having spirited discussion with disagreements as long as it is respectful. But it is classless insulting a guy who is trying to feed his family.

Respectful, is the key!

 

[firehuntfish]

BUT.....the one thing we lack here is the overall experience that other forums have. When you post here, does your post invite that sort of experience to come in and stay, or is it inclined to push seasoned hunters away?

PP, as always, I enjoyed your entire post and agree with the vast majority of your thoughts on the matter. It was insightful and well-stated. One question I do have is in regard to the quoted excerpt above: What exactly qualifies a hunter as experienced or seasoned? That's a fairly ambiguous characterization and can mean a lot of different things. Does an individual have to have hunted Africa 20-30 times to be considered experienced or seasoned?

In your post you made a very interesting point that this site was called "Africa hunting" not "South Africa" hunting, and I agree. However, its my opinion that there is a tendency for some contributors here to slight or diminish any African hunting options that are not for them. That is unfortunate.... There is room here for ALL types of hunting options in every African hunting destination, and they ALL have a client demographic. If we are being honest in our assessments here, it is disappointing when I hear a poster comment that hunting a game ranch in South Africa, Namibia, or Botswana is not a "real or authentic" African experience. If an individual cannot appreciate both the advantages and differences between these options, they should refrain from comment in my opinion.

The bread & butter form most of the sponsoring outfitters here on this site are plainsgame safaris in the aforementioned countries. To diminish the experiences they can offer is a disservice to folks looking for the safari that best fits their budget and expectations. I have had the good fortune to have personally experienced both free range and game ranch safaris. Both have their advantages and disadvantages in various ways including cost, logistics, etc... I would also add that a truly wild destination would not be the most practical option for many types of clientele including couples, families, large groups, and first-time safari guests for may reasons. Should we, as a community, be discouraging them from an African Safari if they can't plan a 21-day hunt in Tanzania?

I thoroughly enjoy reading the hunting reports from those members who get to hunt some of these incredible and remote destinations. I'm sure they can offer some valuable insight and advice relative to those particular experiences, and I would hope they can do so without diminishing the value and enjoyment of other options.

 

[VonJager]

So the price comparison was made between Wild Africa, and ranch hunts in RSA or even Namibia, and I would caution everyone.

Even in "all inclusive" offers in Wild Africa, taxes and charters are not usually included.

I am just a client but comparing Tanzania to South Africa without including charters, taxes is a disservice.

I am planning a "Wild Africa" trip for 2018, and there is usually more than the total daily fee and trophy fee added together

 

[sierraone]

PP, as always, I enjoyed your entire post and agree with the vast majority of your thoughts on the matter. It was insightful and well-stated. One question I do have is in regard to the quoted excerpt above: What exactly qualifies a hunter as experienced or seasoned? That's a fairly ambiguous characterization and can mean a lot of different things. Does an individual have to have hunted Africa 20-30 times to be considered experienced or seasoned?

In your post you made a very interesting point that this site was called "Africa hunting" not "South Africa" hunting, and I agree. However, its my opinion that there is a tendency for some contributors here to slight or diminish any African hunting options that are not for them. That is unfortunate.... There is room here for ALL types of hunting options in every African hunting destination, and they ALL have a client demographic. If we are being honest in our assessments here, it is disappointing when I hear a poster comment that hunting a game ranch in South Africa, Namibia, or Botswana is not a "real or authentic" African experience. If an individual cannot appreciate both the advantages and differences between these options, they should refrain from comment in my opinion.

The bread & butter form most of the sponsoring outfitters here on this site are plainsgame safaris in the aforementioned countries. To diminish the experiences they can offer is a disservice to folks looking for the safari that best fits their budget and expectations. I have had the good fortune to have personally experienced both free range and game ranch safaris. Both have their advantages and disadvantages in various ways including cost, logistics, etc... I would also add that a truly wild destination would not be the most practical option for many types of clientele including couples, families, large groups, and first-time safari guests for may reasons. Should we, as a community, be discouraging them from an African Safari if they can't plan a 21-day hunt in Tanzania?

I thoroughly enjoy reading the hunting reports from those members who get to hunt some of these incredible and remote destinations. I'm sure they can offer some valuable insight and advice relative to those particular experiences, and I would hope they can do so without diminishing the value and enjoyment of other options.

Agree completely FHF. If anything near a 21 day safari in Tanzania were required to hunt in Africa, most American hunters would never see Africa!

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

PP, as always, I enjoyed your entire post and agree with the vast majority of your thoughts on the matter. It was insightful and well-stated. One question I do have is in regard to the quoted excerpt above: What exactly qualifies a hunter as experienced or seasoned? That's a fairly ambiguous characterization and can mean a lot of different things. Does an individual have to have hunted Africa 20-30 times to be considered experienced or seasoned?

In your post you made a very interesting point that this site was called "Africa hunting" not "South Africa" hunting, and I agree. However, its my opinion that there is a tendency for some contributors here to slight or diminish any African hunting options that are not for them. That is unfortunate.... There is room here for ALL types of hunting options in every African hunting destination, and they ALL have a client demographic. If we are being honest in our assessments here, it is disappointing when I hear a poster comment that hunting a game ranch in South Africa, Namibia, or Botswana is not a "real or authentic" African experience. If an individual cannot appreciate both the advantages and differences between these options, they should refrain from comment in my opinion.

The bread & butter form most of the sponsoring outfitters here on this site are plainsgame safaris in the aforementioned countries. To diminish the experiences they can offer is a disservice to folks looking for the safari that best fits their budget and expectations. I have had the good fortune to have personally experienced both free range and game ranch safaris. Both have their advantages and disadvantages in various ways including cost, logistics, etc... I would also add that a truly wild destination would not be the most practical option for many types of clientele including couples, families, large groups, and first-time safari guests for may reasons. Should we, as a community, be discouraging them from an African Safari if they can't plan a 21-day hunt in Tanzania?

I thoroughly enjoy reading the hunting reports from those members who get to hunt some of these incredible and remote destinations. I'm sure they can offer some valuable insight and advice relative to those particular experiences, and I would hope they can do so without diminishing the value and enjoyment of other options.

I couldn't agree more with your post FHF.

To answer your question regarding what makes a hunter experienced, it is a bit difficult to draw the line between experienced and not experienced. And really it's not a black/white sort of thing. There's no experience at all at one end and lots of experience at the other, with many steps in between those two poles.

For me with 4 trips total and all to RSA, I would consider myself somewhat experienced but really not what I'd call heavily so. Having been also on the business side of this for a few years now, I think I have some insight that others who haven't don't. But in comparison to those who have been many more times and to other countries......well lets just say my bucket is not nearly as full.

The types of folks I really appreciate and whose opinion I really put value in, even if I don't always agree with, would include gents like @Mike70560. I have met Mike in person on a few occasions, he is a true southern gentleman and has made numerous trips to Africa. His opinion carries with it weight from the experience he has gained. Furthermore Mike is not afraid at all to take on tough subjects but he does so in such a way that I can best describe as professional.

I wish he and others I know like him, some of whom are also members here, would spend more time here posting. Why exactly they don't I can't say with certainty. But I can say generally speaking, not necessarily for Mike, AH is seen primarily as a RSA PG hunters website. Nothing wrong with RSA PG hunting, but there's more to hunting in Africa as you say.

 

[sierraone]

So the price comparison was made between Wild Africa, and ranch hunts in RSA or even Namibia, and I would caution everyone.

Even in "all inclusive" offers in Wild Africa, taxes and charters are not usually included.

I am just a client but comparing Tanzania to South Africa without including charters, taxes is a disservice.

I am planning a "Wild Africa" trip for 2018, and there is usually more than the total daily fee and trophy fee added together

I will be making my first trip to S.A. this summer. So my agreement with you is not from experience but from near constant reading on the subject. Most of the countries that would classify as wild Africa have extensive fees and taxes in addition to the day and trophy costs. One I read recently charges you $2.00 per bullet you bring in. Maybe I had just missed that before, maybe not. And air charters can easily be more expensive than R/T air from Atlanta to Joberg. So for those of you going to a wild Africa destination and don't have very deep pockets, pay attention to details. Apples and Oranges for sure!

 

[BRICKBURN]

...............
I am just a client but comparing Tanzania to South Africa without including charters, taxes is a disservice.
.............

I actually added the taxes and fees (where not already included) and even converted the prices into USD in my comparisons of the specific ALL IN offers I used.

The charter of a plane in any country is going to create significant additional costs. My items for comparison do not require a charter.
Ground transfer charges are typically comparable. I have paid $1200 for a van ride in RSA. A $600 road transfer in Benin is actually cheaper.

I did not add in any additional VISAS, Airline tickets, Rifle Permits, over nights during travel, travel days, vaccinations, etc.

I agree that the client needs to make every effort to educate themselves on all the costs associated with any purchase they make.
Decide on the kind of experience you actually want to have on your hunt and go have fun.

 

[BRICKBURN]

..........
I wish he and others I know like him, some of whom are also members here, would spend more time here posting. Why exactly they don't I can't say with certainty. .........

There are literally several hundred of AH Members that have been on many more hunting excursions than we can imagine.
Some of the responses to my direct requests for more participation: Language issues, proficiency in writing, time, Anti's, etc.
One surprise I ran in to was concern about litigation.

I have no doubt there are many more reasons that were never shared.
Suffice to say, I'll keep inviting everyone to share their incredible experiences and vicariously their expertise.

Stan Elephant Trail - Can you imagine if he were to share the process of chasing that illusive 100 pounder! The number of hunts he's done, just chasing Elephant across Africa.
How many guys jump on AH and say they have been to Africa three previous times. Please write your story.

 

[firehuntfish]

I wish he and others I know like him, some of whom are also members here, would spend more time here posting. Why exactly they don't I can't say with certainty. But I can say generally speaking, not necessarily for Mike, AH is seen primarily as a RSA PG hunters website. Nothing wrong with RSA PG hunting, but there's more to hunting in Africa as you say.

Definitely more to Africa than a plainsgame hunt.... HOWEVER, I think that a plainsgame hunt is the beginning point for the vast majority of prospective safari clients here for many reasons. The majority of the African hunting market is geared toward that demographic, and I would assume that is why the content is so prevalent here on this forum. If extended safaris, Big 5, and dangerous game safaris where leading the market in demand, I'm sure we would see the content shift from both sponsors and contributing members.

It's a wonderful thing to have all destinations and safari experiences available in one place. It should not be a contest as to who or what content dominates the forums. My main point being that it is disappointing, at least for me, that some feel it is necessary to diminish the more practical and economic options over the more expensive and exotic ones. Apples and oranges to some extent, but there is no reason that we can't enjoy delicious apples and sweet, juicy oranges. I just don't think it is welcoming or productive to the overall forum community to have a dominating point of view looking down on other points of views. If that is what seasoned experience is going to bring, I can do without it.

Good stuff as always PP!

 

[BRICKBURN]

.............
https://www.africahunting.com/threads/recommendations-for-buffalo-hunt.34891/page-2 .............

John (The OP) said:

"I’m looking for recommendations on an outfitter / PH for a 2018 cape buffalo hunt. ..........

I’ve done RSA, so I’d like to hunt a different country, probably Zim or Moz
Must be unfenced and free range
Traditional spot spoor and stalk."

I reviewed the responses in that thread. I categorized those posts below.

1. Zimbabwe
2. Comment on the OP's post
3. Noted the OP's previous research
4. Thread suggestion for further research.
5. Information
6. South Africa
7. Support information
8. South Africa
9. South Africa and Mozambique
10. Zimbabwe
11. South Africa
12. Mozambique
13. Mozambique
14. Mozambique
15. South Africa, conditional
16. South Africa
17. Multiple ops in countries of interest.

One was an obvious redirection that apparently missed the OP's request. However, most were just a passive suggestion at an option.

As a Moderator, I assume that the OP will ignore the suggestions that don't meet his requirements.

FYI, for those who don't quite get it. There are rules you have all agreed to here on AH.
https://www.africahunting.com/help/terms

Posting rules:

• Don't post in threads just to "bump" them to the top of the list of threads.
• Don't hijack threads/topics. This includes (but not limited to) purposely changing the subject, posting in someone's sales thread to offer your opinion when you have no intention of buying.

"Spam" is a pretty big catch all for posting things that overly promotional in nature. ............. but it can also be less blatant things like posting something just ...... asking questions about something you already know the answer to

Attempts to artificially manipulate are seen as spam .......

"Shilling" - don't "help a friend out" by..

 

[siml]

@BRICKBURN thanks for posting some of the rules again.

 

[Wheels]

Stan Elephant Trail - Can you imagine if he were to share the process of chasing that illusive 100 pounder! The number of hunts he's done, just chasing Elephant across Africa.

+1

Stan would be an example of what Phil is talking about. We are fortunate that he has shared some of his experiences with us even though he doesn't post much these days.

How many current day hunters have the opportunity to spend 60-90 days a year in the Nyea Nyea tilting at windmills, to "reach the impossible dream". Walking day after day following 23" tracks to find a 75# bull, turn him down and start over the next day.

This is a hunt that I will probably never experience, even once. But how cool is it to have a resource that at a small level knows what it was like for Rushby, Bell, Neumann, Bauer, Southerland, Nyschens, Johnson, Foran, etc. Wouldn't it be great if we had members like Stan posting more. Even if it is one of his side trips for a 1,000lb marlin or tuna.

@firehuntfish , I don't think anyone is trying to dismiss an RSA pg hunt. I certainly am not. I find them enjoyable. I think what @James Jeffrey - HuntingAgent.com and others including myself were trying to get at is just the opposite. There are some that criticize a free range hunt because it costs 10-50% more. Individuals act like it is stupid to hunt a free range animal and make posts to the hunt that is offered and criticize it. If a "deals and offers" hunt is criticized because it is not as cheap as an RSA hunt, will potential hunters turn their nose up at the offering? Will potential hunters not support sponsors that have a higher cost of doing business?

Even comparing RSA pg hunts dollar for dollar is not always apples to apples. There are plenty of other factors. We can all look at trophies in the hunting reports. Often you can see significant differences in the size or maturity of the animals. Many times your cheaper hunts have smaller trophies. You have to consider the size of the farm. Does X acres support an offtake of Y kudu a year or does that farm have to supplement animals from the auction? Facilities? etc.

The neat thing is that there are all kinds of hunts for all individuals. It would be great if we could support them all.

 

[siml]

Often you can see significant differences in the size or maturity of the animals. Many times your cheaper hunts have smaller trophies.

@Wheels , now thats a whole new ball game...............

 

[JamesJ]

@Traditional Mozambique Safaris is @Wheels off topic? The thread started off about experience and value over cost. I think hunting mature animals is part of the experience and definitely adds value. Shooting immature animal may be cost effective for outfitters as animals can be considered "prime" sooner and hunts are completed faster. That's why guys on deer farms shoot deer at 3 yrs and not 4, hunting a mature deer that is 5-6 can be very difficult even on a ranch, but a young deer.......