Ethics and Legality?

[tarbe]

All of this sort of makes the point that some hunter shouldn't get up on their high horses telling other hunters what's right and what's wrong, what's ethical and what's not, what's hunting and what's shooting, and whose the better human being. Assuming it's always legal.

And please stop using the excuse of placating the antis to justify your arrogance. They won't be placated.

We should be on the same side.

I guess if we can't agree on what constitutes protected free speech, or whether or not someone can display a flag with historical significance, we probably won't get agreement on what constitutes ethical hunting, even among hunters.

I do think the discussion is still worth having though! Hopefully it makes us all think/self-examine.


Tim

 

[Bhfs300]

Well I have been reading this for a while. I hope I don't let my phone change a word like baiting to bathing so some one can nitpick it later.
I lived in WY and here are a couple things that happened when I lived there:
1
A father took his son on his first elk hunt in their helicopter. When they found a good 6x6 the father landed and dropped off his son. As the elk went the other way the father took the chopper and pushed the 6x6 back to his son.
After they were arrested and the chopper was taken in the event. They were fined and not allowed to hunt for a while. The wife bought the chopper back in the silent auction for the chopper.
2
A woman from California came to out state to hunt mule deer. The way the write up in the paper said it: after she shot a good mule deer and they were heading down the mountain to see how they did. Her and her guide saw a monster mule deer so they shot it. (I have the paper saved some place.). She shot the new record for a woman in the state of WY. ??? What happened to the first deer they shot???
3
A bow hunter was walking through the the mountains and got to a place where he was going to sit in a bunch of downed trees to see if anything might come by(not to think this was a blind or tree stand or maybe over a water hole) when he looked back the way he came in he saw a mountain lion coming up the same trail that he had just been on. When it got close he stood up and yelled at the cat. The cat crouched and came at him. He drew his bow and shot the cat. Not having a tag for the cat he headed back to his truck/car and got ahold of F&G they came out to get this out of stater for hunting without a license but when they found the cat about 20 feet from the tree stand with an arrow in its skull they let him off.
4
In my youth we couldn't believe the road hunters that would drive around hunting hopping to see something to shoot a see were in the trees hunting with our bows. Then one day I was on the side of a hill and saw a bull and 4 or 5 cows coming my way and got ready to take a shot. I heard shots coming from a Hummer that was on the road at the bottom of the hill. The only Hummer in our area was a doctor and it was his son and friend leaning out the windows shooting at me on the side of the hill since the elk were between me and the Hummer.
5
Their was a very large moose at the top of a mountain that was always along a state highway. The first day of archery season a person drew a moose tag and since all you needed to archery hunt was a stamp. He bought the stamp got a bow from a friend and drove up to this place at the top of the mountain. With tourists taking pictures of the moose and filming it he got out of his truck and went into the ditch crawled over the road fence that was there and in front of those tourists shot the moose. From the films and the complaints they said he could not ever put the moose in P&Y because of fiat chase.

There are more but I don't want to make a typing error doing this on my phone. God hope I didn't already.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Well I have been reading this for a while. I hope I don't let my phone change a word like baiting to bathing so some one can nitpick it later.
I lived in WY and here are a couple things that happened when I lived there:
1
A father took his son on his first elk hunt in their helicopter. When they found a good 6x6 the father landed and dropped off his son. As the elk went the other way the father took the chopper and pushed the 6x6 back to his son.
After they were arrested and the chopper was taken in the event. They were fined and not allowed to hunt for a while. The wife bought the chopper back in the silent auction for the chopper.
2
A woman from California came to out state to hunt mule deer. The way the write up in the paper said it: after she shot a good mule deer and they were heading down the mountain to see how they did. Her and her guide saw a monster mule deer so they shot it. (I have the paper saved some place.). She shot the new record for a woman in the state of WY. ??? What happened to the first deer they shot???
3
A bow hunter was walking through the the mountains and got to a place where he was going to sit in a bunch of downed trees to see if anything might come by(not to think this was a blind or tree stand or maybe over a water hole) when he looked back the way he came in he saw a mountain lion coming up the same trail that he had just been on. When it got close he stood up and yelled at the cat. The cat crouched and came at him. He drew his bow and shot the cat. Not having a tag for the cat he headed back to his truck/car and got ahold of F&G they came out to get this out of stater for hunting without a license but when they found the cat about 20 feet from the tree stand with an arrow in its skull they let him off.
4
In my youth we couldn't believe the road hunters that would drive around hunting hopping to see something to shoot a see were in the trees hunting with our bows. Then one day I was on the side of a hill and saw a bull and 4 or 5 cows coming my way and got ready to take a shot. I heard shorts coming from a Hummer that was on the road at the bottom of the hill. The only Hummer in our area was a doctor and it was his son and friend leaning out the windows shooting at me on the side of the hill since the elk were between me and the Hummer.
5
Their was a very large moose at the top of a mountain that was always along a state highway. The first day of archery season a person drew a moose tag and since all you needed to archery hunt was a stamp. He bought the stamp got a bow from a friend and drove up to this place at the top of the mountain. With tourists taking pictures of the moose and filming it he got out of his truck and went into the ditch crawled over the road fence that was there and in front of those tourists shot the moose. From the films and the complaints they said he could not ever put the moose in P&Y because of fiat chase.

There are more but I don't want to make a typing error doing this on my phone. God hope I didn't already.

1. A law was broken and they paid a price.
2. A law was broken here too. I'm sure the coyotes and birds got a nice meal.
3. Very similar thing happened to a friend of mine in Idaho. He could have walked away with no problem. He went to the nearest phone and called in IDFG. After a couple of days he went home, no fine. He later got the skin at an auction. No doubt in my mind that my friend did the right thing.
4. I hope you didn't beat the man too badly, but an ass kicking he earned.
5. Technically that may have been legal, but definitely something that makes hunters look bad.

Regarding bathing vs baiting, hopefully that was seen as just a brief excursion into lightheartedness.

 

[Big5]

When it comes to hunting I'm more of what I'd call a traditionalist. I therefore fit right in with the daylight (dawn to dark) hunting regulations in Zim's government concessions and my success, including cats, has been good.

On the other hand, I've taken my daughter over to Africa on a couple of hunts and her ideas of hunting aren't as traditional as mine. She had a strong desire to hunt leopard and wasn't as particular about the method as I am. The Zim leopard hunt I arranged for her was a private land hunt where she was allowed to hunt at night and under artificial light.

I went along during the day to check baits but I never accompanied her and the PH to the blind in the evening as hunting cats at night holds no appeal for me. She took her leopard while I stayed in camp enjoying a good book and a good single malt scotch, or two . . . maybe three.

She was extremely happy over her success and for that I was very happy for her. As a result of that hunt I feel she also came away with an increased appreciation for the different and likely increased challenge a dawn to dusk hunt would have provided. I think that's a good thing.

 

[ActionBob]

I would not club a baby seal...But I would hunt a fenced lion.

I don't know if this is even comparable. One is hunting and I will and have defended it as such... The other is a harvest, and I suppose I might take flack over that... But for the people who did it, it meant feeding their families... It was a job. I don't think any legit hunter would call it a hunt. That was possibly the beginning of a real foothold for the antis. I'm a bit week on my history of seal clubbing. But I did just see something written about the ban on marine mammal hunting and/or harvesting tied to less fish being available... The greenies like to point at every other possibility as a problem,,, but perhaps the fish are simply being eaten by an excess of predators?

All things in balance... Nature will balance them out long term. But it will harsh compared to if intelligent and informed men do it. And no I'm not talking about clubbing baby seals, however what is wrong with hunting a few trophy males? Or even utilizing some of the species as a managed resource? Wolves, bears, etc. If man does not maintain a balance in nature, nature or God will and then it will be harsh and to extremes in most cases.

And to clarify; I have nothing against referring to a hunted animal as "harvested" as in most cases it in effect has been... But many harvested animals and other things are not any more "hunted" than a bushel of wheat. But we humans largely survive on harvested things, so let's not get down on harvesting.

 

[Jfet]

In the past we established traditions within our families, tribes, or communities to insure that wild game was harvested for food and that the wildlife was harvested in a sustainable manner. These traditions became our local ethics. Then as population and governments grew these local traditions become our game laws. Our hunting ethics today, the desire to challenge ourselves beyond the local game laws, allows us as hunters to portray hunting in a positive light to non-hunters. Non-hunters make up the majority of the population and it is they who will decide the future of hunting. As long as non-hunters perceive hunters as ethical and law abiding hunting will continue. Anti-hunters are a small population and we cannot change their minds.

As we discuss legal and ethical issues of hunting do our rules allow the following:
1. The Hunt
2. Sustain wildlife
3. Perpetuate the Hunter

 

[Mekaniks]

Just for some humor

 

[Jfet]

The deer on the right is affectionately know on the 3BH Ranch as Big and Wide. Over the last 3 years (that's as long as I have had the trail cameras) I have many pictures of him at our feeders. 99% of those pictures are at night. I have seen him twice in daylight once while stalking but I could not get a clear shot and the second was at 500 yards and he was on the wrong side of the fence. I am fully convinced he possesses a sophisticated cloaking device.

 

[ActionBob]

I am fully convinced he possesses a sophisticated cloaking device

AKA night time.

 

[Waterguy631]

The area that I hunt there is no where that you can't be 500 yrds from water. and being that water is so plentiful it isn't the attractant that it is in other environments . So does this mean that we can't hunt the whole top half or our state .

 

[Royal27]

The area that I hunt there is no where that you can't be 500 yrds from water. and being that water is so plentiful it isn't the attractant that it is in other environments . So does this mean that we can't hunt the whole top half or our state .

And a perfect example of why one set of ethics won't fit all situations and circumstances.

 

[johnnyblues]

Ethics...For the most part I think most hunters are ethical. Or I like to believe we are. The anti's will never give in because we eat the animals we hunt or that we are ethical. For them the taking of wildlife repulses them. Let me tell you what repulses me. Many years ago I hunted black bear on Vancouver Island , as we were trolling the shore for bear I notice something on the shoreline but from the distance I couldn't make it out. I asked my guide who told me the local Indian tribe would throw out the fish nets and capture whatever fish were running at the time which at that time I think it was salmon. Hundreds of dead salmon were rotting on the shore in the sun light. They would take what the could eat and leave the rest. Maybe that's another story and not relevant here, but Indians who are supposed to be "connected" to the earth and wildlife for them to do this.....Ethics I guess has a lot of meaning to different people. I can only speak for myself I try to do the right thing when it comes to hunting. I want to be proud of whatever I place in my trophy room.

 

[ActionBob]

They would take what the could eat and leave the rest. Maybe that's another story and not relevant here, but Indians who are supposed to be "connected" to the earth and wildlife for them to do this.....Ethics I guess has a lot of meaning to different people.

Johnny this type of thing seems to happen the World over. Be it a kudu snared in Africa where the guy can only carry a quarter home over his back so he not only leaves the rest, but then leaves his other snares set to capture whatever and does not check them until he needs food again, or never and just sets new ones. Or the dumpsters full of monster Muskies and Northern Pike in MN and WI on the Native Reservation Lakes that are thrown out when they are netting the higher value Walleyes.. Or go check out a Native garbage dump in the supposedly pristine wilderness.

Huge difference in that Earthly connection between Hollywood and the Real World.

Do you remember that old circa 1970's commercial where the Native American is looking out over the land and has a tear in his eye? I saw that guy last time I was fishing in Canada.. The tear was from the toxic smoke coming from the garbage he had lit on fire!

 

[johnnyblues]

Johnny this type of thing seems to happen the World over. Be it a kudu snared in Africa where the guy can only carry a quarter home over his back so he not only leaves the rest, but then leaves his other snares set to capture whatever and does not check them until he needs food again, or never and just sets new ones. Or the dumpsters full of monster Muskies and Northern Pike in MN and WI on the Native Reservation Lakes that are thrown out when they are netting the higher value Walleyes.. Or go check out a Native garbage dump in the supposedly pristine wilderness.

Huge difference in that Earthly connection between Hollywood and the Real World.

Do you remember that old circa 1970's commercial where the Native American is looking out over the land and has a tear in his eye? I saw that guy last time I was fishing in Canada.. The tear was from the toxic smoke coming from the garbage he had lit on fire!

I guess nothing is like it used to be. Sad sad world at times.

 

[Royal27]

I guess nothing is like it used to be. Sad sad world at times.

Look at how much food WE waste.....

 

[ActionBob]

Look at how much food WE waste.....

Hey, I produce that stuff. Prices are dropping so please go waste some more!

 

[Royal27]

Hey, I produce that stuff. Prices are dropping so please go waste some more!

The milk will spoil in a couple more days. I promise!

 

[35bore]

I (and others) have said in the past. Ethics is as personal as fingerprints. You can hunt with a person for years, and then the next year they shock the shit out of you.

My cousin will be my example, he has numerous trophies on the wall (multiple species ). Even though he is younger than I, he started hunting earlier than I did. I looked up to him in that way. After hunting with him however, his "techniques " are somewhat different than mine, though legal, they're different. So I am not one to judge him, he is following the law and has had great success. I however don't agree, but, have had some success.

I voice my opinion but in the end he has his way of hunting legally and I have mine. Same as this forum or any of the others, you can voice your opinion, but don't demonize someone else because of their hunting techniques, if they are legal where they hunt,then what is the problem?

The most controversial I have seen on this forum so far has been Lions in SA. I personally don't see a problem , however there are some obnoxious opinions on this topic. I have a good friend who wouldn't post on this "friendly " forum about his lioness hunt in SA.

 

[Hank2211]

? . . you can voice your opinion, but don't demonize someone else because of their hunting techniques, if they are legal where they hunt,then what is the problem.

35bore, I couldn't agree more. I don't want to stop a good discussion, nor an airing of different perspectives. It's healthy, it's educational and it's fun. It's the demonizing and judging that has to go.

 

[Jfet]

I (and others) have said in the past. Ethics is as personal as fingerprints. You can hunt with a person for years, and then the next year they shock the shit out of you.

My cousin will be my example, he has numerous trophies on the wall (multiple species ). Even though he is younger than I, he started hunting earlier than I did. I looked up to him in that way. After hunting with him however, his "techniques " are somewhat different than mine, though legal, they're different. So I am not one to judge him, he is following the law and has had great success. I however don't agree, but, have had some success.

I voice my opinion but in the end he has his way of hunting legally and I have mine. Same as this forum or any of the others, you can voice your opinion, but don't demonize someone else because of their hunting techniques, if they are legal where they hunt,then what is the problem?

The most controversial I have seen on this forum so far has been Lions in SA. I personally don't see a problem , however there are some obnoxious opinions on this topic. I have a good friend who wouldn't post on this "friendly " forum about his lioness hunt in SA.

So what are the reasons for how SA hunts lions?

As you consider this answer let me point out that had ranchers in Texas not seen a value in whitetail deer they wouldn't have managed their habitat to support the deer. It was those early management practices that has brought back deer to not only Texas but to much of the U.S. Remember we hunt over bait in Texas. Things to ponder.