Drilling Rifle Identification Help

[Jpowers8340]

Hello all!
I am new to this forum but have watched for a pretty long time. I have been to Africa once and I am hooked. I will be going back soon. Ive started down a rabbit hole I am afraid, I may never recover, haha. Honestly it has changed my life and for the better in my opinion. With all that being said, I recently purchased a Drilling gun at auction. I don’t really know anything about it and neither did they. I was hoping that someone here might now more about it such as make and model or be able to guide me to the right group that might. I will share the information I have on it and some pictures. Hopefully this is the right place for me to post this. If not I apologize and can delete my post and move it where it needs to go. Thanks again for the help if anyone can.

Here is the description from the auction:

Manufactured in 1935, per stamp on the water table. Features 26-7/8" blued Krupp Steel barrels with solid matte rib. Beaded front blade sight, rear flip-up notch sight and claw-style scope mount with an empty dovetail area between mount points. Each side of the barrel is stamped with an eight point star logo and standard proof marks. Dual gold wire bands on both barrels near the breech. Full coverage scroll and game scene engraving on the receiver and side plates. Sidelock action. Left side features three flushing rabbits. Right side features a male and female elk. Greener style side safety, cocking indicators, tang mounted rear sight actuator and barrel selector, and a tang mounted flip up peep sight. Hand checkered splinter forearm with Deeley release and stock. Right side cheek piece on the stock. Dual triggers, front being a set for rifle. Horn trigger guard and grip cap, engraved cartridge trap, and a brown Pachmayr recoil pad. LOP: 14". DAC: 1-5/8". DAH: 2-1/2". CONDITION: Barrels retain 85% of fading blue with evidence of light spotting and dings under the blue. Some handling marks and moderate loss of the gold in the inlaid bands. Set trigger is out of adjustment. The receiver has a dark gray/brown patina overall with well defined engraving. Stock and forend show small dings and dents with small gaps around the front corner of the side plates. Frosty bores. Checkering has likely been refreshed. Slightly loose on face. CALIBER: 16 Gauge & 9.3x72r. S/N: 5161

 

[Mekaniks]

Well welcome to AH That is quite the rifle!!

I am sure there will some folks by here soon that know WAY more about it than I do...

 

[PerH]

Drillings – German Hunting Guns

Also a good article section about the makers there also .

 

[PerH]

Under barrel lumps are the stampings of when made and cartridge . Names of maker or importer is on top of the barrels , if nothing else noted .

 

[Red Leg]

As @PerH noted, the three number date code should be under the barrels or on the receiver. I do not see it on the receiver, so perhaps underneath and where the auction house came up with 1935. The markings on the barrel simply indicate that a quality Krupp steel was used for the barrels. The Crown over U proof mark was used between 1891 to 1939 (actually began to be used in 1895).

Assuming there is no retailer or gunmaker information on the rib, then this would be considered a very high quality "Guild" gun. Prior to WWII individuals and retailers would regularly commission hunting firearms from independent gunmakers. Most of the time, there would be no obvious marking of the actual maker anywhere on the firearm. Sometimes , a larger maker like Lindner would have a small stamp with which the barrels would be marked underneath.

The good news is this is a very high-end true sidelock with excellent quality high relief engraving. I have personally not seen pin placement on the action exactly like this, so I am not sure its name in the trade. Again, as @PerH posted, Dietrich Apel's site is the best source for additional research. https://www.germanhuntingguns.com/about-the-guns/gun-types/ It is also in a useful caliber for whitetail or wild boar - roughly equivalent to a 30-30. The gun has claw bases for which a skilled gunmaker can build rings in order to scope the rifle. Assuming it came out of a North American auction house, it was likely "liberated" by a GI during the closing days of WWII and brought back. Scopes were normally kept in a separate leather case and were typically overlooked while rummaging around closets and gun cases.

The bad news is that it will require a lot of highly specialized TLC. Some imbecile, no doubt on this side of the pond, took a screwdriver to the action at some point, so hence the buggered screws. The broken set trigger could have been the cause or a result. Another imbecile sliced off the horn or steel buttplate and added that spawn of satan whiteline recoil pad. Also, putting such a gun back on face properly is more challenging than a double barrel and requires specialized skills. Any broken action parts or springs will have to be built from scratch. My first call would be to JJ Perodeau https://jjperodeau.com/ who is in your state outside of Tulsa.

Hope you get it up a running. It is fine example of pre-war work and deserves restoration.

 

[mooze]

Austrian pressure stamp on frame, so looks like a Ferlach made.

Can't see a makers name anywhere.

 

[Red Leg]

Austrian pressure stamp on frame, so looks like a Ferlach made.

Can't see a makers name anywhere.

I do not see an Austrian double headed eagle. Nor do I see an Austrian Nitro proof. A clear overhead photo would be useful.

This is a pre-WWII german shotgun with proof marks. The eagles are identical to the OP's gun. The crown over U is the final German proof.

 

[Troubleshooter]

Congratulations, it does look to be an exceptional drilling. If you post a photo of the underside of the barrels (as in Red Leg's Post #7) the markings may provide further information.

And I second the recommendation to speak with JJ Perodeau about repairs. He works magic.

 

[rookhawk]

Guild gun. Mid grade. Worked over a few times in its life.

Biggest issue that is probably incurable is that it looks like the left chamber has a crack in it, rendering the gun unsafe and worthless if true. That’s what my eyes see:

 

[Red Leg]

Good catch. I missed that.

 

[Red Leg]

I likely have a different perspective of "grade" or "value" than many on the forum. From a value perspective, a drilling of this nature of the OP is indeed of mid-range value compared to a Krieghoff sidelock of the same period. However, if we simply grade the gun, It was a quite high quality creation.

The finest German shotgun from a quality perspective that I own is a thirties era guild boxlock pigeon or heavy field gun. Its fit, finish, engraving, and balance are extraordinary. The only markings are proof marks and date of manufacture. The most valuable German boxlock that I own is thirties era Gebruder Merkel OU pigeon or heavy field gun. It too is exquisite and is a sidelock. It too has very fine engraving and it is worth 4X the guild gun - likely more. But esthetically, the guild gun is to my eye a superior firearm. I have also won a lot more races with it than the Merkel.

So, I actually "value" the SxS boxlock by no one more than the OU sidelock by Merkel and describe them both as high grade guns. The Merkel would obviously retail for more at auction.

Shame about the chamber of the drilling if that is correct.

Guild gun

Gebruder Merkel

 

[Red Leg]

Jeez - "The most valuable German boxlock that I own ........" should read shotgun or SxS - not boxlock.

 

[Jpowers8340]

Guild gun. Mid grade. Worked over a few times in its life.

Biggest issue that is probably incurable is that it looks like the left chamber has a crack in it, rendering the gun unsafe and worthless if true. That’s what my eyes see:

View attachment 625962

Luckily that is not a crack, it was simple some mark that I was able to wipe out as you can see from the photo. I appreciate you seeing that though cause I had not looked that close. But good news is that it's not cracked on either now that I spent the time to look closer.

 

[Jpowers8340]

As @PerH noted, the three number date code should be under the barrels or on the receiver. I do not see it on the receiver, so perhaps underneath and where the auction house came up with 1935. The markings on the barrel simply indicate that a quality Krupp steel was used for the barrels. The Crown over U proof mark was used between 1891 to 1939 (actually began to be used in 1895).

Assuming there is no retailer or gunmaker information on the rib, then this would be considered a very high quality "Guild" gun. Prior to WWII individuals and retailers would regularly commission hunting firearms from independent gunmakers. Most of the time, there would be no obvious marking of the actual maker anywhere on the firearm. Sometimes , a larger maker like Lindner would have a small stamp with which the barrels would be marked underneath.

The good news is this is a very high-end true sidelock with excellent quality high relief engraving. I have personally not seen pin placement on the action exactly like this, so I am not sure its name in the trade. Again, as @PerH posted, Dietrich Apel's site is the best source for additional research. https://www.germanhuntingguns.com/about-the-guns/gun-types/ It is also in a useful caliber for whitetail or wild boar - roughly equivalent to a 30-30. The gun has claw bases for which a skilled gunmaker can build rings in order to scope the rifle. Assuming it came out of a North American auction house, it was likely "liberated" by a GI during the closing days of WWII and brought back. Scopes were normally kept in a separate leather case and were typically overlooked while rummaging around closets and gun cases.

The bad news is that it will require a lot of highly specialized TLC. Some imbecile, no doubt on this side of the pond, took a screwdriver to the action at some point, so hence the buggered screws. The broken set trigger could have been the cause or a result. Another imbecile sliced off the horn or steel buttplate and added that spawn of satan whiteline recoil pad. Also, putting such a gun back on face properly is more challenging than a double barrel and requires specialized skills. Any broken action parts or springs will have to be built from scratch. My first call would be to JJ Perodeau https://jjperodeau.com/ who is in your state outside of Tulsa.

Hope you get it up a running. It is fine example of pre-war work and deserves restoration.

So I really appreciate the time you have spent explaining this. I knew there were some good people on here and I clearly under estimated the amount of knowledge you all have shared. I am very new in this old gun stuff so I am absorbing as much as I can. I have been a gun dealer for 15 years but mainly specialized in machine guns and other NFA firearms not the older fine guns like this. However, now I have fallen in love with these older guns and the history that they have. Everything seems to have a story and learning about them has become a new hobby. With that said I took a little bit of everyone's advice and removed the barrel and took some photos underneath. I didn't clean it up first which I can if no one can tell anything further but If these help just let me know. I am also curious if anyone on here has maybe a rough idea what it's worth in its current shape before I say what I spent, lol. I am curious what kind of deal I got on it. Like I said I enjoy learning so if I spent too much I am not upset it was worth the history lesson I am getting. Again thank you for the information and the help. I love this group and read quite a bit. It's much more laid back than some of the other pro second amendment type forums.
-Josh

 

[rookhawk]

Luckily that is not a crack, it was simple some mark that I was able to wipe out as you can see from the photo. I appreciate you seeing that though cause I had not looked that close. But good news is that its not cracked on either now that I spent the time to look closer.

That is wonderful news!

The gun is more grungy than it is worn. I’d recommend using 0000 fine bronze wool and kroil to get the gunk off all the metal. I’d follow that up with a run down with a pink rubber eraser to clean the crud out of the engraving.

 

[Fallschirmjaeger]

Definitely a German gun, though I'm not sure I would call it a guild gun. Probably just a nice gun built by a maker in Germany. They didn't always put their names on them unless they were a large manufacturer (and even then they sometimes put someone else's name on them, as in the case of Geco for example). I believe 118/35 means this was the 118th gun produced by the maker in 1935. I could be wrong about that however. It originally had 65mm chambers, but someone extended them to 70mm at some point based on the rather crude engraved "70" below the 16. The proofs are all pretty standard German prewar proofs. Do you see it marked for Nitro anywhere? Many times it would just above the barrel flat on bottom of the barrel where it meets the flat - in that shadowy area. It should have a crown N and Nitro.

 

[rookhawk]

118/35 doesn’t mean what we think it means.

I’ve asked experts why it means what it means, no one has given me a satisfactory formula for why.

The 118/35 indicates the caliber or bore of the rifle barrel. I know 172/28 means 8mm. I *think* 118/35 means 9.3mm. If any German proof genius could chime in to explain how that nomenclature is calculated to infer the bore dimensions, I’d be grateful.

And yes, other numbers with a decimal on german guns do mean the gun through the proof house in a given year…but not that one.

 

[Fallschirmjaeger]

118/35 doesn’t mean what we think it means.

I’ve asked experts why it means what it means, no one has given me a satisfactory formula for why.

The 118/35 indicates the caliber or bore of the rifle barrel. I know 172/28 means 8mm. I *think* 118/35 means 9.3mm. If any German proof genius could chime in to explain how that nomenclature is calculated to infer the bore dimensions, I’d be grateful.

And yes, other numbers with a decimal on german guns do mean the gun through the proof house in a given year…but not that one.

Ahh yes sir, I forgot about that. You are probably correct.