Double vs Bolt .. Speed/Accuracy

[Forrest Halley]

The real first and second place winners in this debate...

 

[sureshot375]

Has anyone ever been in a situation where you could actually get four shots off at an animal? By shot 4 it’s either going to be out of sight or on top of you.

 

[Forrest Halley]

Has anyone ever been in a situation where you could actually get four shots off at an animal? By shot 4 it’s either going to be out of sight or on top of you.

@Bob Nelson 35Whelen don't you say a darned thing about my squirrel hunting!

I believe if you get a hit the possibility for four shots is easily done. Another possibility would be an animal crossing an open field.

I left the improved cylinder choke tube in my 20 gauge one deer season and I got off six shots at a deer with a three shot plug in a pump. I opened up at 60 yards and finished point blank. I also got off five shots in a close engagement of about 3-10 yards with a 12 gauge shotgun set up for long distance super full choke. I hit the first, fourth and fifth shots. Quarter sized patterns with a vent rib. I can shoot a shotgun pretty quickly. I think someone with a lever gun could easily get off four shots. Bolt actions are going to be more difficult.

 

[steve white]

Has anyone ever been in a situation where you could actually get four shots off at an animal? By shot 4 it’s either going to be out of sight or on top of you.

"Shoot till it's down or out of sight" is an elk hunting motto, probably the same in most DG situations.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I generally give them a chance to fall over. I'm fairly confident in my shooting ability.

Hunting the bird refuge I always hear pheasant hunters rattling off three shots so fast it almost sounds like one. I don't have to see it to know that bird flew off unscathed. There is something to be said about fast shooting ... one word ... dumb. Make the first shot count.

 

[375Fox]

Has anyone ever been in a situation where you could actually get four shots off at an animal? By shot 4 it’s either going to be out of sight or on top of you.

My first buffalo I fired 3 from same position. I’ve fired 4 at an eland. First shot was low and at 350 yards. I got the rest fired before he went over hill then finished him on other side. 3/4 connected.

 

[375Fox]

He couldn't run the gun off his shoulder? This is not difficult and is the best way to shoot a bolt gun fast. All this dismount business does is increase the motion and time between shots. The bolt shooter didn't lean into the rifle at all and had a a time reacquiring his sights.

The double shooting is smooth. He only broke his cheek weld once to reload saving a lot of time. The reload went well and was very clean.

I don’t think the shooter with the bolt really cared if he won or lost. However, I disagree with you on running a bolt gun from your shoulder. The biggest advantage to taking it off your shoulder is you’ll never short cycle or weak cycle the bolt. I learned a long time ago I could shoot better at clays with a shotgun if the gun wasn’t already on my shoulder and I pull it up for the shot. I do the same with my rifles for follow up shots. I’ve had numerous PHs comment on my fast follow up shots. It depends on the person. I have no interest in learning to shoot with rifle staying on my shoulder to reload but think I’m considerably faster than most.

 

[375Fox]

Has anyone ever been in a situation where you could actually get four shots off at an animal? By shot 4 it’s either going to be out of sight or on top of you.

Not my video. I but remember it from a similar discussion on 4 shots a few years ago. Fast forward to 2 minutes.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

@Bob Nelson 35Whelen don't you say a darned thing about my squirrel hunting!

I believe if you get a hit the possibility for four shots is easily done. Another possibility would be an animal crossing an open field.

I left the improved cylinder choke tube in my 20 gauge one deer season and I got off six shots at a deer with a three shot plug in a pump. I opened up at 60 yards and finished point blank. I also got off five shots in a close engagement of about 3-10 yards with a 12 gauge shotgun set up for long distance super full choke. I hit the first, fourth and fifth shots. Quarter sized patterns with a vent rib. I can shoot a shotgun pretty quickly. I think someone with a lever gun could easily get off four shots. Bolt actions are going to be more difficult.

@Forrest Halley
At least your deer hunting is better than your squirrel hunting. You only needed 6 shots on 1 deer that was coming at you. Shooting quickly doesn't make up for shooting accurately.
Your shooting is getting better mate.,only six shots. Compared to 9 shots at 1 squirrel. That's a 3 shot improvement. We won't mention that a deer is a lot BIGGER than a SQUIRREL tho.
Ha ha ha ha ha ha
Bob

 

[BeeMaa]

Not my video. I but remember it from a similar discussion on 4 shots a few years ago. Fast forward to 2 minutes.

4 shots in 7 seconds with a Blaser R8. Not sure of the caliber but it has to be at least a 9.3 or 375 for hunting buffalo.

 

[sureshot375]

Not my video. I but remember it from a similar discussion on 4 shots a few years ago. Fast forward to 2 minutes.

Open terrain and world class shooting!!! When I’m hunting it’s its lot thicker and the shooter isn’t nearly as skilled. Lol.

I still would think that 4 shots without time to reload would be an exception in the world of DG hunting.

I’m not sure that double guy from the first video would beat the shooter in this video.

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

Has anyone ever been in a situation where you could actually get four shots off at an animal? By shot 4 it’s either going to be out of sight or on top of you.

I got 4 shots off on my 1st Cape Buffalo with @Safari Co. Africa using a Pre64 M70. All 4 hits and knocking him down well within 100yds of the initial shot. Had 1 left and reloaded as we were walking the 40yds up to him

Shot 1 broadside bedded (double shoulder and lungs - under 10yds)

Shot 2 as he stood quartering towards (frontal chest) to which he ran a bit (obviously hurting) we closed the distance and caused him to run

Shot 3 - running, quartering away slightly (shoulder/lungs)

Shot 4 - same shot as 3 but had slowed considerably by the shot and knocked him over with impact

 

[Tintin]

At our Big Game Rifle Club match a few months back, one of the events was: start with empty rifle, load and fire 2, load and fire 2 more. Scored for accuracy and time (and energy).

A healthy mix of double and magazine rifles were used by over 30 participants. It was an interesting anecdote that the winner used a magazine rifle. Not a scientifically valid test - but highlights that individual skill is probably the key factor.

 

[Forrest Halley]

I don’t think the shooter with the bolt really cared if he won or lost. However, I disagree with you on running a bolt gun from your shoulder. The biggest advantage to taking it off your shoulder is you’ll never short cycle or weak cycle the bolt. I learned a long time ago I could shoot better at clays with a shotgun if the gun wasn’t already on my shoulder and I pull it up for the shot. I do the same with my rifles for follow up shots. I’ve had numerous PHs comment on my fast follow up shots. It depends on the person. I have no interest in learning to shoot with rifle staying on my shoulder to reload but think I’m considerably faster than most.

I wouldn't presume to know your capabilities. I understand that there are a lot of learned people that advocate for the dismounting of the rifle between shots. I just wasn't taught that way and it is slower. I've never had a short stroke issue. I have had trouble finding my ejected brass. It cannot possibly be faster than leaving the gun on the shoulder. You're adding in a motion that is not directly related to the ejection and reloading of the rifle. The gentleman in your video doesn't dismount the rifle and he's nearly flawless. If he had only skipped looking over the scope he would have been even faster.

@Forrest Halley
At least your deer hunting is better than your squirrel hunting. You only needed 6 shots on 1 deer that was coming at you. Shooting quickly doesn't make up for shooting accurately.
Your shooting is getting better mate.,only six shots. Compared to 9 shots at 1 squirrel. That's a 3 shot improvement. We won't mention that a deer is a lot BIGGER than a SQUIRREL tho.
Ha ha ha ha ha ha
Bob

I didn't miss the deer coming at me. I just didn't put a lot of pellets on it. Open choke over distance does not work very well.

Open terrain and world class shooting!!! When I’m hunting it’s its lot thicker and the shooter isn’t nearly as skilled. Lol.

I still would think that 4 shots without time to reload would be an exception in the world of DG hunting.

I’m not sure that double guy from the first video would beat the shooter in this video.

Double guy doesn't have a chance against that shooter. That's a straight pull rifle in the hands of an expert. The only improvement I can see is for that shooter to stay on the sights between shots. The gun stays on the shoulder and there isn't any hesitation between the shots and cycling the action. @BeeMaa is probably giddy.

 

[ChrisG]

They should rerun this with a lee-enfield speed shooter who knows what he's doing.

 

[Forrest Halley]

They should rerun this with a lee-enfield speed shooter who knows what he's doing.

Well then:
Fast SMLE shooter with a bobble...

Very good rapid manipulation of the SMLE Left handed so he had a good reason to dismount the rifle.

SMLE shooter...decent job of the rapid fire

This guy is very good and looks like he's a fair balance of speed and accuracy. He even changes magazines. I think the Ishapore would rule this game.

I think an R8 run like this is the fastest bolt action possible.

 

[Tex .416]

Showing the targets would be helpful.

No one can miss fast enough to win a gunfight.

 

[Altitude sickness]

The double rifle shots were more accurate also.

 

[ChrisG]

Well then:
Fast SMLE shooter with a bobble...

Very good rapid manipulation of the SMLE Left handed so he had a good reason to dismount the rifle.

SMLE shooter...decent job of the rapid fire

This guy is very good and looks like he's a fair balance of speed and accuracy. He even changes magazines. I think the Ishapore would rule this game.

I think an R8 run like this is the fastest bolt action possible.

I think in order to qualify for the mad minute, they have to be able to hit the target with each shot. Otherwise its just blind shooting as fast as possible.

 

[Forrest Halley]

Showing the targets would be helpful.

No one can miss fast enough to win a gunfight.

This is true, but we're not gunfighting we are exploring the speed of particular rifle designs under certain parameters which are not firmly enough defined.
What are we trying to achieve in this? A marksmanship contest at speed at fifty yards or a speed shoot at 20 yards where its hit or miss with the vitals?
The SMLE will destroy the double outright in a race to four rounds fired in both accuracy and speed. Because the rifles do not have a similar power level, it is not a level contest. The question is can that same speed of manipulation be carried over to a rifle of similar power level to the double rifle.
We have a tendency to wax sentimental about speed or accuracy when our favored contestant loses so it is important to have a standard set or else we will argue it forever. Even still some will argue the fairness of the standards.

I think in order to qualify for the mad minute, they have to be able to hit the target with each shot. Otherwise its just blind shooting as fast as possible.

The mad minute was also shot at 300 yards which is irrelevant to our purposes here due to the distance being unfavorable to the double rifle. Put a mark at twenty five yards that is 12 inches in diameter. Let the rifles go at it in a race to four shots. Next put a target at fifty yards with the same 12" mark and have them go again. Whichever rifle wins the most bouts is your champion.
I propose a few stipulations (to best limit excuses and uncertainty in the validity of the outcome):
•Rifles must be of equal power levels as agreed upon by the shooters.
•Rifles must use identical sighting systems. Irons vs. Irons, Scopes vs. Scopes, etc.
•Rifles should be started by a shot timer while shouldered and aimed at the target to assure the most uniform start and true measure of the action manipulation speed.
•Rifles will be started together on the 25 yard and , but separately on the 50 yard stage.
•The rifle that is behind on the 25 yard stage shall have the option to go first or last on the 50 yard stage.
•Any portion of the bullet breaking the perimeter of the mark shall be a hit.
•The winner of each stage shall be the rifle with the most hits on the mark in the fastest time.
•In the event of a tie, the smallest aggregate distance from center of bullet holes to center of mark wins.