Defining Fair Chase Behind A High Fence

[Hank2211]

@Hank2211 to use sable for example.

These animals are usually kept and bred in small camps. Given supplement feed every day, have interaction with humans daily. They get so used to human interaction, so after couple of years they decent trophy size, then released in either 1000 or 30 000 acre camp to be hunted. The animal has no fear of humans, they so use to interacting with humans. Is it LEGAL to hunt one of these.....yes, but would I want to hunt one of these ...NO!! Sable are one of the most majestic animals in Africa, sad to see they have lost the respect that they deserve.

I shot my first sable in Matetsi (where there are, or were, at least, no fences) some years ago. 44 5/8 inches. He has pride of place among my trophies.

It wasn't a hard hunt though. He saw me, but the wind was in my favour. He stomped and snorted at about 80 yards. Sort of like bringing a knife to a gun fight. He lost. Sable tend to be somewhat aggressive, so may be a bit easier to hunt, other things being equal, than some other animals. Does being habituated to humans make it worse? Perhaps. You would know more than I, I think, although I have also hunted them in high fence areas, and I can't say I've seen a noticeable difference in how they behave.

Either way, I don't believe that the fact that one might have been the product of a breeding program meant that the hunt wasn't fair chase, nor did it undermine the connection between hunting and conservation. In fact, the breeding of these animals will likely go some way to ensure their survival as a species.

I note that bontebok and black wildebeest were brought back from the brink of extinction by game ranchers. Seems a pretty clear link between breeding and conservation (although I admit the breeding was for numbers rather than horn size, if that makes a difference to anyone).

 

[gizmo]

I shot my first sable in Matetsi (where there are, or were, at least, no fences) some years ago. 44 5/8 inches. He has pride of place among my trophies.

It wasn't a hard hunt though. He saw me, but the wind was in my favour. He stomped and snorted at about 80 yards. Sort of like bringing a knife to a gun fight. He lost. Sable tend to be somewhat aggressive, so may be a bit easier to hunt, other things being equal, than some other animals. Does being habituated to humans make it worse? Perhaps. You would know more than I, I think, although I have also hunted them in high fence areas, and I can't say I've seen a noticeable difference in how they behave.

Either way, I don't believe that the fact that one might have been the product of a breeding program meant that the hunt wasn't fair chase, nor did it undermine the connection between hunting and conservation. In fact, the breeding of these animals will likely go some way to ensure their survival as a species.

I note that bontebok and black wildebeest were brought back from the brink of extinction by game ranchers. Seems a pretty clear link between breeding and conservation (although I admit the breeding was for numbers rather than horn size, if that makes a difference to anyone).

Not just black wildebeest and bontebuck. Axis, debowski sika, scimitar horned oryx, blackbuck, aoudad (Barbary sheep), Pierre David deer, barisinga, nilgi, addax, and Thompson Gazelle have all been the direct beneficiaries of conservation through hunting just to name a few and I can certainly keep going. A few of these wouldn't exist anywhere in the world outside of a zoo had it not been for game farms here in Texas. These species now thrive here in Texas as a result and in some cases have been successfully realeased back in their native lands as a result of it. The proof is in the pudding and one certainly can't argue with results.

 

[gizmo]

Texas has the largest herd of scimitar oryx and aoudad in the world and it certainly didn't get that way because of zoos or anti groups. Hunters did that.

 

[Hank2211]

Texas has the largest herd of scimitar oryx and aoudad in the world and it certainly didn't get that way because of zoos or anti groups. Hunters did that.

Breeding did that too.

 

[siml]

@Hank2211 I agree with you game breeding has brought back bontebok, BW and increased numbers in game. I am all for conservation. I have nothing against high fence hunting, I still hunt a lot of areas that are fenced. I just want to make a comparison (this is not knocking bow hunting) nearly every second day I see a photo posted on social media, pictures of sable hunted with a bow, all the pics from SA, last two pics, you could clearly see the tag holes in the ears. So far only seen 1 pic of sable hunted with a bow outside SA. There has to be a difference between bred and free range.

 

[Hank2211]

@Hank2211 I agree with you game breeding has brought back bontebok, BW and increased numbers in game. I am all for conservation. I have nothing against high fence hunting, I still hunt a lot of areas that are fenced. I just want to make a comparison (this is not knocking bow hunting) nearly every second day I see a photo posted on social media, pictures of sable hunted with a bow, all the pics from SA, last two pics, you could clearly see the tag holes in the ears. So far only seen 1 pic of sable hunted with a bow outside SA. There has to be a difference between bred and free range.

Simon, there may well be a difference, especially in 'Put and take' hunts. My point was that the original poster said that breeding animals undermined the link between hunting and conservation. I disagree completely with that statement, and I would suggest it is entirely without merit.

Having said that, my best hunts have been my toughest, and all of those have been in areas without any fences. But I'm fine with fences if the areas are large enough, and I certainly won't put anyone down for such hunts, by, for example, saying they are not fair chase. They might be fair chase, and they might not. But the fence is not usually the deciding factor. Perhaps I should put it another way - a fence is a necessary but not sufficient condition if the hunt is to be called not fair chase.

 

[siml]

@Hank2211 , I think we both on the same side of the fence, no pun intended.

 

[gizmo]

I don't know that necessary is even true. There have been plenty of drugged/trapped leopards in areas with no fences and that certainly isn't fair chase.

 

[Hank2211]

@Hank2211 , I think we both on the same side of the fence, no pun intended.

Is that side on the inside or the outside of the fence? Sometimes I can't tell where I am!

 

[siml]

@Hank2211 , not sure....but guess you were bred and released.

 

[Jfet]

“George, thanks for texting me that link to the thread about defining fair chase on Africahunting.com. Those old boys seem to be good guys. They do make you think.


Hey, in your last email you mentioned going to the town hall meeting hosted by our state representative dealing with the hunting legislation. I think you will do a good job speaking. Your talking points of Safe, Legal, Ethical, and Conservation are good.


You are correct those guys in the other part of the state are different but we need them to vote with us.


You can tell me how it goes when I get back. Got to shut down the computer. We are getting on the plane now. I am pumped for this trip!”

 

[Royal27]

I don't know that necessary is even true. There have been plenty of drugged/trapped leopards in areas with no fences and that certainly isn't fair chase.

this is the best example I've heard yet regarding "it isn't just the acreage."

 

[KCSafari]

If a farm is large enough to provide its own ecosystem I think it's fair chase. I would argue that personally I feel like 1200 acres should be the minimum for a farm containing a few different species. I have walked myself to death on 1200 acres before. Fair chase areas also has very few water holes(and diversity in wildlife) so the animals are usually concentrated in specific areas where a 2000 acre farm that is fenced in has about 16 waterholes so the animals move freely. Regarding the placement of an animal that has been bred in a camp. If you leave him for a year in a big farm full of wild animals he will become wild also. Just ask the wild brahman bulls running around on our farm that no hunter has been able to shoot.

 

[wesheltonj]

@Hank2211. . . nearly every second day I see a photo posted on social media, pictures of sable hunted with a bow, all the pics from SA, last two pics, you could clearly see the tag holes in the ears. So far only seen 1 pic of sable hunted with a bow outside SA. There has to be a difference between bred and free range.

When I was hunting a high fence place in RSA, I saw sable (and others) with and without ear tags. The owner made it clear that tagged animals were there to prevent cross breeding and not to hunt. The animals that you hunted were all born there. No supplemental feed was given, only man made water holes.

 

[siml]

@wesheltonj , did he also explain to you about "santa claus" ?

 

[wesheltonj]

@wesheltonj , did he also explain to you about "santa claus" ?

Santa Claus, why just last Christmas he left me a SAKO Classic in 300 WM. What are you talking about no Santa!

We drove all over that 24k acres and walked for hours over it. The only feeders that I saw, were in the horse and donkey paddocks and I did not see any game mixed in with those animals. I spotted a grand total of 6 animals with tags. Right after I left he had a cull hunt where in excess of 200 animal were removed because of native food supply. This past DSC he showed me the drone he purchased that he will use to dart tagged animals to cycle them out and do game counts, said it was cheaper then helicopter rentals.