Defining Fair Chase Behind A High Fence

[IdaRam]

...now whats zambia ever done to you?.....

ZAMBIA? Where's that? Never heard of it.
Of course Zambia is on that list as well. Probably right at the top if I can afford it.
Although I hear there's this aussie bloke that runs around with a crazy lady PH...

 

[IdaRam]

Agree again. what annoys me equally though is when hunters don't want to have polite conversations (like this one) just because someone may say they wouldn't hunt in the same manner as they would. We do tend to get a little overly sensitive at times, IMO.

Agree 100% @Royal27 Civil discussion, disagreement, exchange of opinions is a very healthy thing. When it spirals down from there, which happens all to often, is when I think it is harmful and potentially fodder for the anti's.
A couple examples: bear baiting and mountain lion hunting with hounds here in the U.S. Historically hunters haven't stood together very well to defend those two methods of hunting. Even to the point of outwardly condemning them. That's what frustrates me.

 

[Ridge Top Ranch]

Fair chase, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. Does the animal have a chance to get away from the hunter? Is the property so stocked with trophy animals that every time you turn around another trophy is standing there?

Each of us must decide on our own. In my own personal experience I can look back at my african hunting experience and in my heart tell you whether I felt each animal was fair chase or not. Some I would do again, others not so much.

 

[edward]

I don't think there is much in this civil conversation to make any anti smile....

any difference of opinion between hunters makes antis smile.

 

[edward]

So you don't care that @edward shot his squirrel in a high fenced area, long range, and from a vehicle???
oops,i didnt think anyone was looking.



Now back to the serious conversation



Agree species hunted is another great variable to discuss.



What about elephant? Would ele on totally enclosed 24k acres and most likely going after one specific bull be fair chase? Perhaps. Would I do it personally? Doubt it.... At least not for first bull. Later, looking at it as a cull? Different story.... So all about perspective for me. I'm just making the point about species here and not trying to turn this into "the ethics of ele hunting" conversation.




Agree again. what annoys me equally though is when hunters don't want to have polite conversations (like this one) just because someone may say they wouldn't hunt in the same manner as they would. We do tend to get a little overly sensitive at times, IMO.

 

[Savage Hunter]

Like so many of the TV shows about deer hunting, particularly it seems in the south. Everybody gets all camoed up and "stalks" their way into the BLIND! After some time has passed, the grain fed deer start wandering within range of the rifle or bow, and blam! Got em deer. Then the excited heavy breathing, high fives all around, thanking the good lord, and proclaiming, "man what a great HUNT!" It is a harvest which is fine, but its not hunting.

I live in Mississippi, and I hunt whitetails...... in the woods mostly, but this is why I never watch Whitetail hunting shows. Most are ridiculous. Most are staged. Most are like shooting cattle.
And most have guys that say stupid stuff like "that's what I'm talking about" or "this is the mackdaddy of fill in the blank" or "that buck just couldn't hold that hit" (really? let me shoot you with a 300mag and see if you can hold it) and a whole lot of other stupid things.

I hate hunters that disrespect animals and think they're more of a man because they shot a deer.
My wife shoot a few deer every year and she certainly isn't manly.

 

[BWH]

As many of you have said or eluded to..... it's ultimately a gray definition & subjective to the eye of the beholder. I think my only parting shot to add to that would be, "ones own conscience". If it was fair chase to you, then there you go. I can't convince you otherwise & vice versus. I have no problem hunting behind a fence (i.e. 1000's of acres), if I feel that is "fair" environment to hunt. That may be much more challenging than sitting at a free range water hole at 20 yards to ambush whatever shows up.

 

[Jfet]

“George! Goodness Gracious! What a buck! How many points does it have? … 42! That is amazing!


“Yes, yes another highball would be great. So, George, where did you get that deer? On a ranch just west of Austin you say?”


“You bet that is a pretty lodge! Looks like good food, too. Oh really, you were in the blind for 30 minutes the next morning when that big buck showed up. Well congratulations.”


“Well, let me tell you about my hunt George. Several of us went up to the Bridger-Teton National Forest in Wyoming to hunt elk and mule deer. Yea! It is beautiful country up there! It is amazing how it can be cool and crisp up there and so beat you down hot here at home. Yes! We stayed in tents. Took all our gear up to the trail head by truck and then packed it in another 3 or 4 miles. There were times the trail was straight up. We just took breaks when we got tired. Well, this Texan took breaks every other step.”


“Here let me show you some pictures! Yea the fall colors are amazing. That was our view from camp. You could see into next week! Here this is a picture of the stars we could see at night. The picture does not do it justice. Yea, out there you could understand constellations.”


“No, didn’t get an elk. Saw a bunch but just couldn’t get in shooting range. Yep, it was a great hunt!”


“Hey George, you think you might want to come with us next year. Yea, it will be an amazing experience.”


“Super, pour another one and let’s start planning.”

 

[Royal27]

“George! Goodness Gracious! What a buck! How many points does it have? … 42! That is amazing!


“Yes, yes another highball would be great. So, George, where did you get that deer? On a ranch just west of Austin you say?”


“You bet that is a pretty lodge! Looks like good food, too. Oh really, you were in the blind for 30 minutes the next morning when that big buck showed up. Well congratulations.”


“Well, let me tell you about my hunt George. Several of us went up to the Bridger-Teton National Forest in Wyoming to hunt elk and mule deer. Yea! It is beautiful country up there! It is amazing how it can be cool and crisp up there and so beat you down hot here at home. Yes! We stayed in tents. Took all our gear up to the trail head by truck and then packed it in another 3 or 4 miles. There were times the trail was straight up. We just took breaks when we got tired. Well, this Texan took breaks every other step.”


“Here let me show you some pictures! Yea the fall colors are amazing. That was our view from camp. You could see into next week! Here this is a picture of the stars we could see at night. The picture does not do it justice. Yea, out there you could understand constellations.”


“No, didn’t get an elk. Saw a bunch but just couldn’t get in shooting range. Yep, it was a great hunt!”


“Hey George, you think you might want to come with us next year. Yea, it will be an amazing experience.”


“Super, pour another one and let’s start planning.”

Classic....

I'm just impressed George wanted to go on the Wyoming hunt. I didn't hink he had it in him!

 

[Jfet]

I'm just impressed George wanted to go on the Wyoming hunt. I didn't hink he had it in him!

George doesn't know it yet either but with some help and encouragement he will become amazed at what he will do.

 

[siml]

I think the point for different species require different size areas holds a lot of truth.

 

[gizmo]

This is, has, and always will be a controversial issue. All I can say is I'm a hunter and I have done both. I've had "free range" hunts that were way too easy and fenced that were extremely difficult and visa versa. As an outfitter I offer both for options for my clients as well.
I can tell you this, a lot depends on so much more than size alone. Animal densities, terrain, cover density, and the way the animals are dealt with play much more of an important factor than acreage.
I have seen some of the south Texas deer farms where people go in to hunt hand raised deer. It doesn't matter if it's 10 gillion acres if the animal was bottle fed as a fawn and hand raised it will be very gentle and lack of any sport to hunt it. Your guides will know exactly where he hangs out and in a time less than it took you to drive over there your deer will be down.
On the other hand. My high fenced part of the ranch surveys a touch over a section. It's all rough country with dense brush and canyon. I had 5 Catalina goats I needed to get caught last month. I tried baiting them which didn't work so I highered 6 professional cowboys on horse back who work on the neighboring 40000 acre cattle ranch to go catch them. It's branding season down here so they had three days they could squeeze me in. In three days they saw them once and got within 300 yards before they bolted. They weren't seen again after that. We ended up getting 4 more people on utv's to try and help find them plus the guys on horse back and still never even saw them after that. Luckily, eventually, they did come into a panel trap last week and I was able to catch them.
My point is if done properly it is every bit as much fair chase as free range. I can find wild deer much faster than I can find certain animals in my high fence. On the other hand certain animals prefer open terrain and are readily visible, getting a shot on the other hand is an entirely different story.
I really and truely hate this argument as in the past it has just led to a bunch of fighting. Thus far this one has been civil which is good. My take is if your not comfortable doing it great, don't. At the end of the day we are all bound by our own set of values but don't be to hasty to judge others.

 

[BWH]

@gizmo You are 100% right. It is a issue that usually just ends in a pissing match. Like best caliber, best ammo, etc.

As hunters we are fighting/defending ourselves against a real shitstorm in the media & the left. Not just here in the USA, but globally. We really don't need to division within.

 

[Michael Dean]

I think that at the end of the day, every hunter has to sit back and reflect on what type of experience they want within the constraints of their budget and time allocation. What is challenging and rewarding for one individual may not represent what another hunter demands for his own personal rewarding experience. For many, pulling the trigger and determining the point count is not central to having a successful hunt. For these hunters, a successful hunt is arranging a terrific campsite and spending quality time with fellow hunters. while others evaluate success with a tape measure. Regardless of how diverse our positions are concerning the type and style of hunt we prefer, it's paramount that respect and support is demonstrated; if the hunting community fails to present a unified front we are leaving the door open to the anti-hunting element to undermine the sport as we know it.

 

[gizmo]

I think that at the end of the day, every hunter has to sit back and reflect on what type of experience they want within the constraints of their budget and time allocation. What is challenging and rewarding for one individual may not represent what another hunter demands for his own personal rewarding experience. For many, pulling the trigger and determining the point count is not central to having a successful hunt. For these hunters, a successful hunt is arranging a terrific campsite and spending quality time with fellow hunters. while others evaluate success with a tape measure. Regardless of how diverse our positions are concerning the type and style of hunt we prefer, it's paramount that respect and support is demonstrated; if the hunting community fails to present a unified front we are leaving the door open to the anti-hunting element to undermine the sport as we know it.

Amen!

 

[siml]

@gizmo +1

@Michael Dean , excellent.

 

[PARA45]

When I hunted in SA, all the areas we hunted were high fence, and unfortunately I do not recall the actually size. However, there were days in which we drove/walked for several hours without seeing a single game animal. The kudu I shot, took me over 4 days to get it, because they were either too small or they high tail when the wind shifted. During one of the hunts, we went to one location to a new location to hunt, and we sat over looking a feeder (I didn't know that). The property owner of that location was not done dropping the feed in the containers, when the kudu were walking out of the bush, without a care that the vehicle was less than 100 yds away. I told my PH that I was not going to shoot any kudu over the feeder, that it didn't seem fair, and that the kudus knew and were used to being fed at a certain time. I also explained that to the owner, and my reason of why I did not shoot any kudu over the feeder, and he understood and respected my decision. I think it is up to us to decide if a hunt is ethical or not. I thought shooting at a kudu over bait was unethical. My 2 cents worth.

 

[Hank2211]

Dear Abby,

What bothers me about the OP is not the discussion of what constitutes fair chase. We all have opinions on that, many which are expressed in this thread, as well as in others. No, what bothers me is the conflation of fair chase and canned hunting with colour variants or "freak show bucks" as the OP calls them.

Surely, these are two different issues? Many game ranchers in South Africa as well as elsewhere will breed for certain characteristics, either in a large area, or in a smaller breeding area, with the offspring released into an area large enough that most of us would call hunting there fair chase. Many do it with buffalo and sable, and some even for animals as inexpensive as springbok. And of course, the same thing goes on in Texas and elsewhere all the time with deer.

What does the manner of breeding have to do with fair chase? If I am hunting sable on 50,000 acres, I'd call that fair chase (other things being equal). If I spot two sable, one of which was bred for horn size and one not, could I tell them apart? Is there some distinguishing feature I should look for? If I shoot the non-bred one, is that fair chase but if I shoot the other, it's not? What if the bred one had smaller horns so was let out into the hunting area? Is it still not fair chase to shoot the one, but all there others would be? If a farmer is breeding for golden wildebeest, are the released "bred" offspring which are normal coloured fair chase if shot, while the golden offspring released in the same area are not fair chase? They are all bred animals. If a huge whitetail is released into a large area is that not fair chase? What if it jumps the fence? Is it fair chase on the other side? What if I can't be sure which side of the fence he's on? Is it fair chase to shoot him outside but not inside? Is it always not fair chase, regardless of where's he's shot because he was bred to be big? What if the only "breeding" which is done is to supplement feeding with minerals and well tended food lots? Does that mean that any free ranging animals which partake of the offered food, and maybe grow an extra inch or two as a result of the better nutrition, are forever out of fair chase bounds? Even if they're not as big as those which might not have sampled the minerals? How could you ever tell them apart? Should we put some sort of radioactive marker in the food so that the animals which eat it can be identified (using special binos!)by those of us who are fair chase purists?

As you can see, I am very confused.

Let me add one thing - other than the "springbok slam" I have never shot a colour variant, nor do I want to, at least not if they want me to pay more for it. A blue wildebeest is a blue wildebeest to me, even it he's golden. For the same price, I'll shoot any of them.

I can see that true canned hunts undermine the "genuine connection between hunting and conservation" as the OP says. But I for one don't see how hunting color variants in the wild, in circumstances where shooting a non-color variant would be fair chase, undermines that connection.

Signed,

Looking for Clarity

 

[siml]

@Hank2211 to use sable for example.

These animals are usually kept and bred in small camps. Given supplement feed every day, have interaction with humans daily. They get so used to human interaction, so after couple of years they decent trophy size, then released in either 1000 or 30 000 acre camp to be hunted. The animal has no fear of humans, they so use to interacting with humans. Is it LEGAL to hunt one of these.....yes, but would I want to hunt one of these ...NO!! Sable are one of the most majestic animals in Africa, sad to see they have lost the respect that they deserve.

 

[gizmo]

@Hank2211 to use sable for example.

These animals are usually kept and bred in small camps. Given supplement feed every day, have interaction with humans daily. They get so used to human interaction, so after couple of years they decent trophy size, then released in either 1000 or 30 000 acre camp to be hunted. The animal has no fear of humans, they so use to interacting with humans. Is it LEGAL to hunt one of these.....yes, but would I want to hunt one of these ...NO!! Sable are one of the most majestic animals in Africa, sad to see they have lost the respect that they deserve.

Simon I agree with you. That being said I won't look down on someone for hunting one. Personally, my beliefs tell me that hunting animals under high fence is fine and I don't have a problem with it but.... for me the animals need to have sufficient land, cover, and escape routes to avoid hunters. The animals then should have the least amount of human contact as possible. As far as feeds etc, I feel as the owner/caretaker it is ones responsibility to provide everything necessary to ensure healthy animals. I have no problem with supplemental feed but I personally do have a problem with hand feeding and rearing animals to be hunted. The animals on my ranch under fence are provided with high quality feed from a free choice feeder to supplement their diets as well as food plots which serve the same purpose. Animals are never hand fed and every effort is made to keep them as wild as possible. They are part of herds as the would be in their native lands and their fawn survival is solely dependant on nature. I do remove predators to help with higher fawn survival rates for obvious reasons but they are never hand reared. I don't mean to sound boastful but I take much pride in my operation and the way it is run.
I don't look down on people for the way they choose to hunt as it's their right provided they are doing so legally but we all have different values and beliefs. I'm like you, I do want to hunt sable but would prefer to do it in their native habitat in truely wild places. That being said I would hunt one in SA or even here in Texas if the hunt was conducted in a manner that I felt fit my values. My lion and buff were both taken In RSA and that hunt was the greatest of my life. I don't know that anything will ever top it. I could see having the opportunity to complete my big 5 being equal but I can't imagine being better. Not to mention there is always something special about ones first trip to Africa and first DG hunt. I still chuckle sometimes thinking about that my first animal taken on African soil was a lion and the first hunting day was after buff. Talk about doing things backwards.
Anyway, I guess I'm rambling now. Different strokes for different folks. We all have our level of comfort. I do not judge others provided what they are doing is legal for one and humane for two (I know that opens a whole other can of worms). My biggest hope for our collective passion is that we as hunters find a way to meet at common ground with mutual respect in order to further our passion and educate the public. Unfortunately there are many in upcoming generations that will never hear the whistling of wings as a flock of ducks come in with the light or the sound of lions roaring just outside where you sleep. As years go on more and more people are removed from our lifestyle and become uneducated about nature and conservation. If we don't start doing our job by educating the non hunting public and working together those things we love will cease to exist in the near future.