Chapuis and Sabatti double rifles?

[enysse]

The one thing I noticed about the factory made Sabatti's is that I would like a little more recoil pad. And I don't think Americans like multiple leaf sights on their rifles. But other than that...I think it's a very good gun!

 

[Dr.FrankB-Mimic]

Sirs,
the old english doubles required not less than 2 black carriers during a track hunt...
I live less than 200 km from Sabatti's factory, and know the people there. The double was engeneered to really hunt, and I mean to carry your own rifle the all day, beeing it a 470 or even a 500 nitro...
Of course, on the range, it feels light ...

 

[DUGABOY1]

No sir! This a new triple barreled rifle. No shotgun tubes at all. The barrels are staggered unlike a drilling where a pair are on top with another on bottom. I have also seen a type of drilling that has 2 rifle barrels on top with the shotgun on the bottom. Pretty rare I think, but more practical I'd guess.

AKMIKE, it makes no difference if the barrels are "staggered", three in a row, or every one of the three being a different chambering, if it has three barrels it is a drilling! The German word "DRILLING" simply means a three barreled firearm! Rifle drillings have been made as long as drillings have been made, and are still made today by most of the double rifle, and drilling makers. Merkel makes a fine double rifle drilling with two side by side rifle barrels and a shot barrel beneath between the rifle barrels. A double 9.3X74R with a 20 ga shot barrel under would be a very usefull firearm!

 

[DUGABOY1]

Last week I was at Jim Brockmans Gun shop in Idaho..He had a Sabatti and I was truly impressed with the gun. It was a tad light for a 470NE and he had added 8 oz. of lead fore and aft and it balanced well. workmanship and wood quality was a delight on this rifle, and the inside was better fitted than the chapius or Merkel..

I am still an English gun fan, but for the buck I don't see how one could beat the Sabatti at least based on this one gun. The 450-400 in a Sabatti is the most inexpensive double I know of and its one hell of a working gun and even comes with a lot of bling..

Ray, and guests, the Sabatti is not inexpensive it is CHEAP! Inexpensive means something is priced lower that it should be for the product you receive! This is certainly not the case with the Sabattis! The bling on them is earrings on a pig!

I see that these posts were made mostly in May of 2011 and this being June 13th with that in mind it is quite evident that by May none of you had been apprised of the horror stories posted all over the internet about the SABATTIs cheap assed regulation practices of using a moto-tool to grind away the rifleing on one side of the inside of the muzzles to cause the bullets to YAW in the direction they need to go instead of regulating these rifles in the traditional way! In a few words it works SOMETIMES, and most times it doesn’t.

I have been owning and shooting double rifles for 53 years owning just about every make ever made, and I have never seen another brand of double rifle that was so-called REGULATED in such a poor manner! Cabela’s has had to refund the money on about every one they have sold because the wouldn’t hit the same wall of a barn from the inside with both barrels! As some one above said “You get what you pay for!”

I wouldn’t trade either of my Merkels for a half dozen Sabattis, and as bad as I hate the Blaser doubles I wouldn’t trade one of those for the Sabattis either!

We had one down at the 4K Ranch in Jan of this year chambered for 450NE that was lucky to hit the paper at 25 yards with both barrels. Both barrels had had the rifleing ground out of one side or the other at the muzzle of both barrels to regulate it. This was one of the Cabela’s specials. The owner had to return the rifle to Cabela’s for a refund and bought a Verney-Carron double and is happy as a clam with it’s quality, and regulation. For those lucky enough to get a Sabatti that will shoot in the same county with both barrels you can consider yourself very lucky indeed!

 

[James.Grage]

DUGABOY1

Great post...

It is difficult in ones searching to find a good old English double, however they are out there...

As in all things you get what you pay for...

 

[enysse]

Well, I missed that article! Thanks DUGABOY for the input and post. That takes me out of ever wanting to buy one now. You would think the way they regulate the barrels would be the same as everyone else....I guess not!

 

[Mike70560]

Sirs,
the old english doubles required not less than 2 black carriers during a track hunt...
I live less than 200 km from Sabatti's factory, and know the people there. The double was engeneered to really hunt, and I mean to carry your own rifle the all day, beeing it a 470 or even a 500 nitro...
Of course, on the range, it feels light ...

The old 4 bores and similar weighed 18-20 pounds and required gun bearers. Even today the 600 or 577 Nitro is a little heavy to carry all day by the average hunter.

However all of the British gun makers have been building correct weight Nitro-Express rifles since the 1890s that are a joy to carry and shoot. So to say "the old english doubles required not less than 2 black carriers during a track hunt..." is simply not true. And to compare the Sabatti to an H&H, Boswell, Rigby or many others is simply ludicrous.

Mac,

Thanks for the post, you are spot on. Anybody buying a Sabatti is really taking a chance. Some have been happy but more are returning the guns to Cabelas for refunds.

 

[karibu]

I got a chapuis in 375 H& H and a Zanardini in 470 NE, Chapuis is more fine, but Zanardini is a hard rifle, ask for prices.

 

[Grey Morel]

Funny that none of the 1/2 dozen actual Sabatti owners who posted earlier in this thread have been back to share any of the supposedly inevitable "horror stories" with us?

Every relevant thread I could find on 'Google' was overwhelmingly positive from everyone who had handled or purchased one. This included not only another thread on this very forum, but also multiple threads from other forums (who tend to be critical of everything).

The two dissenters appear to be 'Dugaboy' and a poster on another forum named 'SabbatisSuck' who has only ahieved 5 posts (all in one Sabbati thread) and admitted to never even having fired one, or even known anyone who owned one... yet he professes that these 'junk' guns will surely not last even 20 rounds.

These rifles seem to have been available for a while and apparently are selling very well. If they were so fragile someone would have said something by now.

I'm sure they can't hold a candle to the $30,000 English doubles or even a 10K Merkel but, then again, nobody is claiming any such thing.

While I could liquidate my personal firearms collection and easily produce the funds to purchase a Merkel or Kreighoff, why would I ever do such a thing? The loss of tangible history, sporting utility, and recreational enjoyment would not be remotely worth it... But $3K is a reasonable goal which could be reached by a sportsman of modest means, such as myself, if a concerted effort were to be made; especially for a product which has received overwhelmingly good praise.

Some traditionalists will never be happy.

A few more magazine rifles top my list before I can begin to work toward acquiring my first double, but Eventually I will come around to it - after all, I'm only in my mid 20's. If I calculate correctly, I have purchased and traded around 20K worth of firearms in the few short years I have been of legal age to own. It may take me another decade but in the mean time, I look forward to see what other developments will be made in this field.

 

[Mike70560]

Grey,

There were only two posters (not half dozen) in this thread who stated they owned a Sabatti. I really wish they would post how the rifles regulate and shoot at 50-75-100 yards. Some have been satisfied, other are returning their rifles.

As Mac stated above the big issue is regulation and how it is achieved. You commented on a Google search that brought you to two other forums. There is a third forum that has extensively discussed the good and bad of the Sabattis as well as the efforts to make the shoot including the involvement of the importer. That forum is blocked from Google searches. If you are interested PM me and I will send the link.

I am not a traditional double shooter. I have a Kreighoff and take a lot of grief from the traditional guys. I also have a Boswell 450-400 built in 1905. The Kreighoff goes to Africa and has performed flawlessly, the Boswell has not been as of yet.

In short it is good to bring out the problems people are in fact having with these rifles as well as the good side of them.

 

[DUGABOY1]

Funny that none of the 1/2 dozen actual Sabatti owners who posted earlier in this thread have been back to share any of the supposedly inevitable "horror stories" with us?

Every relevant thread I could find on 'Google' was overwhelmingly positive from everyone who had handled or purchased one. This included not only another thread on this very forum, but also multiple threads from other forums (who tend to be critical of everything).

The two dissenters appear to be 'Dugaboy' and a poster on another forum named 'SabbatisSuck' who has only ahieved 5 posts (all in one Sabbati thread) and admitted to never even having fired one, or even known anyone who owned one... yet he professes that these 'junk' guns will surely not last even 20 rounds.

These rifles seem to have been available for a while and apparently are selling very well. If they were so fragile someone would have said something by now.I'm sure they can't hold a candle to the $30,000 English doubles or even a 10K Merkel but, then again, nobody is claiming any such thing.

While I could liquidate my personal firearms collection and easily produce the funds to purchase a Merkel or Kreighoff, why would I ever do such a thing? The loss of tangible history, sporting utility, and recreational enjoyment would not be remotely worth it... But $3K is a reasonable goal which could be reached by a sportsman of modest means, such as myself, if a concerted effort were to be made; especially for a product which has received overwhelmingly good praise.

Some traditionalists will never be happy.

A few more magazine rifles top my list before I can begin to work toward acquiring my first double, but Eventually I will come around to it - after all, I'm only in my mid 20's. If I calculate correctly, I have purchased and traded around 20K worth of firearms in the few short years I have been of legal age to own. It may take me another decade but in the mean time, I look forward to see what other developments will be made in this field.

Someone would have said something by now???????? Where have you been getting your info, at Wall Mart??? This has been hashed out all over the internet in double rifle forums!

I'm sure Grey that your post is backed with copious amounts of experience with double rifles, and what constitutes their quality, and how they are supposed to work. First off we are not discussing a double rifle that is not pretty here, we are discussing a double rifle that sells for $5500 us dollars, and was a special order by Cabela's that doesn’t work the way it is supposed to. The $3K rifles only come in calibers are meant for deer, and pig hunting. No matter how CHEAP or HIGH the cost, or the scratching on the metal, if the rifle doesn't shoot properly no matter what you pay for it high or low it is not worth the price. The cheaper models shoot no better than the Cabela's specials. You are correct they have been selling well, and coming back for refunds about as fast as they sold!

Sir I'm not talking through my hat, as you seem to be! I have personally inspected these rifles, and have been in on the range sessions where they simply will not shoot to any form of regulation. It is a fact that the regulation is attempted by grinding the muzzles to egg shape so as to regulate them by causing the bullets to yaw in a different direction when they do not shoot properly.

These rifles are simply fitted into a jig and/or lasers on a target and soldered. This is not regulation but simply someone who has absolutely no idea how real regulation is properly performed is using to cut cost. There is nothing wrong with cutting cost, but if the rifle is not regulated properly the cost, cheap or high is irrelevant. The fact is, this doesn't work, and though jigs and/or lasers are used by all double rifle makers, but only to get a STARTING POINT so regulation can begin! A double rifle left this way is useless in most cases, and if one out of ten shoots anywhere near regulation they are lucky. Winchester tried this with their Grand European over under double rifle made for them in Japan. It didn't work any better for Winchester than it has for Sabatti. The biggest mistake Winchester made was hard brazing the wedges between the barrels to they couldn't be easily re-regulated when they didn't shoot properly. These Winchester O/Us can be re-regulated, but few know how without destroying the very thing barrels! Like the Sabattis the Win rifles are pretty, but useless because they are not regulated properly.

Regulation cannot be done with this method only and in this case when it doesn't work, they took a moto tool to the inside of the muzzles to try to get them to shoot properly by making the bullets yaw on exiting the muzzles. This grinding is also not the proper way to finish what they screwed up with the jigs and laser. Anyone can solder two barrels together but making them shoot parallel is the goal, and the Sabattis have been poor to horrible in that pursuit. I suppose you are one of those who think a double rifle is regulated to cross at a given point! This is not the case, the regulation "DISTANCE" has only to do with the sights! The barrels must be regulated converging so they will shoot parallel, not so they will cross.

I will say that Cabela's has been great in refunding money on these rifles, and I'm told they will not be using those regulation methods in future, but will use the tried and true regulation methods that have worked for a couple hundred years. When you pay $5500 dollars for a double rifle that will not regulate,or even the $3K for the little ones, what do you have for your money?

I’m sure once they start regulating properly the cost will not be $5500 any longer! The $3000 bottom of their line will likely be closer to the $5500 of the specials, with an attendant differential between the two models.

My friend all you have is an OPINION of how double rifles work, based on misinformation, and on a rifle type and a particular rifle you have zero first-hand experience with! You are entitled to that misinformed opinion nonetheless!
................................. :cupcoffee:

 

[James.Grage]

Dugaboy1

great post...very though out and i also ave been to other forums looking for information on double rifles.

I also looked at the double rifles in cabelas and was not very impressed with them...they had 45-70 and 500 NE to take a look a and handle...but for 3 to 5 K i could not find any information to support my puchasing a new on the market stamp rifle...

I have found double rifles over seas to purcase however i did not want to go through the difficulties of bringing one into the country...

I have sent many e mails requesting information and time lines to have one built in England...The other day one did call and we talked and i as asked if i was still in the market...when i said yes and what rounds i would find acceptable... we were able to talk and obtain some informaion...i am still waiting for the return e mail with the info and pictures...

It looks like i will have one built in either 450 or 470 NE...

 

[Mike70560]

James,

You have commented a couple of times about purchasing a double. Are you familiar with Champlins? They are probably the most reputable high end dealer for used rifles/shotguns in the country. This is a direct link to their gun vault .

Champlin Firearms - Gun Vault - Quality Firearms

This would be one nice rifle to own.

Champlin Firearms - Gun Vault - Quality Firearms

 

[Steve]

Sabatti "break-in" period

I also recently purchased a Sabatti in 9.3x74R and have about 50 rounds through it. It is accurate as any double I have ever seen or shot (including my friends Merkel) ---HOWEVER---how long does it take for the proper break-in period? Although my rifle shoots great it takes a tremendous amount of force (even using your knee/leg as a lever) to open the action after firing! Is this normal? Have you heard anything about this "problem"?

 

[James.Grage]

Dugaboy!


The 4K ranch are you talking Texas or Montana?

 

[aldeureaux]

Hey guys, I just bought one in 9.3x74R. I always wanted a double and this is the first I could afford. Haven't had a chance to shoot it yet in that I had some unexpected health issues come up. How do you guys like yours? Still pleased with how they shoot? I plan to "develop" or find some light loads for deer and hogs, about heavy .35 Remington territory. Anyway, always wanted a double and the only ones I found close to being able to afford were the 9.3 Chapuis, but they were still almost twice the price of the Sabatti. The wood is beautiful on mine, the fit and finish are excellent, and like most Italian guns, the ergonomics are outstanding. Just wondering how everyone is doing with yours.

 

[Rastaman]

Per my other post I am shooting mine in now. I am noticing a few contact and rub points. Yes mine is still hard to open but not as hard as you describe.

 

[bernard kalchthaler]

Well, I missed that article! Thanks DUGABOY for the input and post. That takes me out of ever wanting to buy one now. You would think the way they regulate the barrels would be the same as everyone else....I guess not!

When Cabelas ordered so many rifles at one time quality did go down. The bores that were ground to regulate was done by the importer in Florida. That's the same company that imports the rifles that Remington sells, Baikal . They try to regulate all returned rifles by grinding the rifling. The rifles sold in the U.S.
. before the order from cabelas are just fine . I own 2 right now . I have a 9.3x74R and a 45/70 and both shoot just fine with the ammo that sabatti uses use . Go on line and look up Sabatti rifles and there is a 10 minute film on how they regulate there guns now. You will be impressed . I am a retired gunsmith and find that all the early and all the rifles after the Cabelas order shoot very well. I would recommend the basic 92 and the deluxe to anyone wanting to buy a nice double for any game they would like to hunt.
gunguyuinpa

 

[bernard kalchthaler]

Hi again, there is a product avail called gun juice that will making your gun open and close much easier. I guess it has a very lite abrasive in it and it works. Sorry but I don't remember where I got it .try google

 

[AZDAVE]

I have one of both 450NE Sabatti (Took a Zebra and Warthog last safari) Will us it on Cape Buff this year. Is very well regulated with factory ammo and I have worked up a solid load for 500gr A-Frames and CEB solids. My Chapuis is a 9.3x74 (Going to be Cape Eland as its primary target this year) also shoot well with factory and 300gr Aframes. Of the two the fit and finish on the Chapuis is better. I have shot Merkels in 500NE and my friends shoots good. I like my Sabatti better than the Merkel. But would really like a Verney Carron in 450NE, handled one at DSC this year and may have to put it on the want list in a few years (Will have to part with the other two for that though). Haven't Shot the Heym or one of butch's but they also both look like solid choices. If I was in you shoes would save more and get a Chapuis if you want to stay in the sub 10K range and look at the other three if you can swing 15+K.