Captive Lions For Sale At Safari Club International

[MarkB]

Thanks for the education Royal27, I have read many portions of CITES but now have read the text of convention. Thanks for setting me straight.

Our manage by emotion BC Gov has outlawed hunting of Grizzly bears within the province. It has not stopped the trade, sale and movement of Grizzly bears, some people can still hunt grizzly bears within BC. Anyone can still hunt grizzly bears in many parts of Canada. CITES permits are still required to import and export out/in Canada internationally. For Canada internally BC has a new " internal registry" that BC residents must complete for newly acquired/imported Grizzly Bears this alongside the paid royalty's. A slippery mess that hopefully flips back to normal after the next election. As it did before.

As others have posted, no need for a repeat thread, I will enjoy my upcoming hunt while we still can.

MB

 

[Hank2211]

We had this same argument a couple of years ago. Some of the posters are the same, some not. But the arguments for the most part could have been copied and pasted from a couple of years ago!

And a couple of years before that. . .

Obviously a very emotive and emotional issue - for both hunters and anti-hunters. Every few years it’s good to be reminded that hunters can be ruled by emotion just as much as anti-hunters. Shows how far we still need to go.

 

[Frederik]

I was contenplating on posting another reply on the Canned VS CBL, BS but in the end no one feels the same over it but if at all possible won't it be nice when:

1. If it's a legal hunt but you don't like it - Keep quiet and move on.
2. We all hunt and fish I pressume, we all daydream and spend a lot of time and money to fund these dreams most worked pretty hard to get there. Nobody would like to get pissed on their parade after a hunting report.
3. We all love nature much more than the antis as we actually spend time and money not picketing and type a few slants like the antis.
4. I find myself at times difficult to keep quiet at somethings I see and read on the forum not to reply negatively.
5. We are all here for the same reason and that is the love of nature and hunting we all have our own way of hunting. Thats great as we are different and not boring like the vegans who have to manufacture new food and tastes as they know deeply inside of them they are torturing themselves.
6. We know that we have to manage our wildlife resources to keep our dream.

So let us respect each other as hunters in our cultures and beliefs, Antis dont have anything positive to shout about but we do lets keep it that way.

 

[Tally-Ho HUNTING SAFARIS]

I don't need to shot and animal in a pen before I know it's wrong...me thinks thou dost protest too much

You really want others to accept that your going to shoot a captive bred Lion period...why do you care what I think or anyone else.

I am a paid member Of SCI. I support them for taking a stand against captive bred Lion killing.

This discussion is about the report that SCI has accepted money from South African farms that are selling captive bred Lions, after they have publicly stated that they would not do that.

That is what this thread is about...

And yes as a member I will contact them after they have issued a full report and let them know that I as a member expect them to do thorough research and vetting of all vendors in the future!

just a note on sci and the shows
SCI are only there to make money from outfitters who want to exhibit and give donations and fork out a lot of $ to market at these events. so SCI may have an empty show next year if they do what you are asking

i support what PHASA has stated in this thread

here is a video posted by antis, which is obviously edited and with questions being asked to co erce exhibitors to give up the information that they want to hear to use as fuel to get idiots to donate money,
we are letting this video take time out of our days to argue with one another!!!
we should be standing together
we all hunt differently, live differently, but we should never force our views upon one another, which is what the antis do

 

[BRICKBURN]

Not in the USA

This has nothing to do with CITES and the USA.
It has to do with an INTERNAL policy decision of the USFWS.

 

[BRICKBURN]

Heck, there are many outfitters on this forum that advertise the canned hunts in RSA. They wouldn't be in business if demand was not there.

No they do not advertise CANNED hunts on AH. It's ILLEGAL!

 

[BRICKBURN]

....... And dont forget that British Columbia ignores CITES and wont let the Grizzly be hunted, or did Canada read the CITES report and change that? So weird that both countries wont even allow hunting of those species when CITES says it's all good.
.........

No lumping the entire country into that pond with the backward thinking, pandering greenies.
Canada still allows the export of legally hunted Grizzly Bears.

2017 Election Results
Liberals 43
NDP 41
Greenies 3

You just can't hunt them in that backward province who's minority government created this mess by pandering and ignoring science.

 

[BRICKBURN]

Should we start another Hornady thread too?

In fond memory of another post by @JacoS

 

[Tanks]

No they do not advertise CANNED hunts on AH. It's ILLEGAL!

Please enlighten me on lion hunts in RSA then. Isn't releasing a lion bred on a farm to a hunting area an example of a canned hunt? They sure as heck are not free range. Or are we splitting hairs?

An example of lion hunts being advertised. Now, personally I don't have anything against it. BTW, SCI would consider the hunt in the example below a canned hunt.

https://www.africahunting.com/threa...frica-20-years-as-full-time-outfitters.53524/

 

[MarkB]

No they do not advertise CANNED hunts on AH. It's ILLEGAL!

He ignored my question. You can answer with more elegance than I.

MB

 

[Hank2211]

I'm not entirely sure what the SCI rules say, but my understanding (no more than that) is that it is against the rules for an exhibitor to advertise captive bred lion hunts. I think it would be entirely wrong for SCI to go further and ban conversations between outfitters and clients about legal hunts, or try to prevent outfitters from honestly answering questions put to them by prospective clients about legal hunts.

SCI isn't the government, so I assume it could legally attempt to control otherwise legal speech at its convention, but the day it does that is the day I send my membership back.

 

[BRICKBURN]

Please enlighten me on lion hunts in RSA then. Isn't releasing a lion bred on a farm to a hunting area an example of a canned hunt? .....

Anti's came up with the derogatory descriptor CANNED.
Just for kicks on the verbiage people abuse to denounce others :

Do you introduce yourself at cocktail parties as an ELEPHANT MURDERER?
Nothing personal, I just hear this all the time by the Anti's at protests and wondered if you were going to adopt their favoured method of describing hunters for yourself.

ASKED AND ANSWERED in this thread and countless others.

Firstly canned hunting is an illegal practise. This is where animals are hunted in very small enclosures or are drugged before the hunt . These are not legal in any country !!!

It is sad that we still have hunters that seems to confuse this practise with captive bred or Ranch Lions ....and not just lions for that matter as you can get canned hunting on a lot of other species as well. And Yes it has happened before. We need to take note of our approach and words when we defend or promote our Industry.

I have looked at the video a few times. A few operators where obviously tricked into volunteering information. In none of the converstaions could I find any direct marketing of Captive Bred Lions. They all answered questions asked.

It is also interesting that nobody mentions all the other species mentioned like elephant and rhino .
Wild Lions were also mentioned.

SCI and DSC have a policy currently that no Ranch or Captive Bred Lions maybe marketted on the Show floor. This has not changed. The question is did these operators actively market it or merely answer questions on this. I did not see or hear any pricing on Captive Bred anywhere in this clip ..... just wild and one mention of Captive Bred Lion in a book that was hunted in the past.
...........

SCI news releases on the subject of CAPTIVE BRED LION HUNTING

"02/02/2018
Considering that the practice of the captive breeding of lions for the purpose of hunting has doubtful value to the conservation of lions in the wild, and considering that such hunting is not consistent with SCI’s criteria for estate hunting, the SCI Board has adopted the following policy:

• SCI opposes the hunting of African lions bred in captivity.
• This policy takes effect on February 4, 2018 and applies to hunts taking place after adoption of this policy and to any Record Book entry related to such hunts.
• SCI will not accept advertising from any operator for any such hunts, nor will SCI allow operators to sell hunts for lions bred in captivity at the SCI Annual Hunters’ Convention."

https://www.safariclub.org/news/sci-adopts-policy-captive-bred-lions

"04/29/2019
In light of a recent article published in the Daily Mail, Safari Club International is reiterating its position on captive bred lions issued over a year ago:

“Considering that the practice of the captive breeding of lions for the purpose of hunting has doubtful value to the conservation of lions in the wild, and considering that such hunting is not consistent with SCI’s criteria for estate hunting, the SCI Board has adopted the following policy:

· SCI opposes the hunting of African lions bred in captivity.

· This policy takes effect on February 4, 2018 and applies to hunts taking place after adoption of this policy and to any Record Book entry related to such hunts.

· SCI will not accept advertising from any operator for any such hunts, nor will SCI allow operators to sell hunts for lions bred in captivity at the SCI Annual Hunters’ Convention.”

SCI was one of the first hunting organizations to take an official position opposing the hunting of captive bred lions.

“Safari Club International has made its position quite clear on the issue of captive bred lions,” said SCI President Paul Babaz. “As a true conservation-minded organization, we led the way on this issue over a year ago. We are happy to see other like-minded groups and individuals join forces with us in opposition to this practice.” "​

https://www.safariclub.org/blog/sci-reinforces-statement-captive-bred-lions

 

[Fred Gunner]

Isn't releasing a lion bred on a farm to a hunting area an example of a canned hunt?

Everyone seems to have their own definition of a “Canned Hunt.”

Here’s mine.
1)The lion is bred and raised in captivity. Fed by humans all its life.

2)Kept in a sufficiently sized and secure enclosure where it can be managed and has no chance of escape or ability to harm other people or animals.

3)When it reaches “trophy status” it is marketed to people who can pick out the exact lion they what to kill and are guaranteed that is the lion they will shoot.

4)Weeks or maybe just days prior to the client arriving at the farm / ranch the Lion picked out by the client is released into a larger enclosure from which there is no chance of escape. And there are no other lions in this enclosure.

This takes place in a country that just recently classified these lions as “live stock” and are regulated as “farm animals.”
When the proposal was offered that these lions could be released into the wild the organization promoting Captive Bred Lions stated that these lions couldn’t survive in the wild…

 

[Hank2211]

Please enlighten me on lion hunts in RSA then. Isn't releasing a lion bred on a farm to a hunting area an example of a canned hunt? They sure as heck are not free range. Or are we splitting hairs?

An example of lion hunts being advertised. Now, personally I don't have anything against it. BTW, SCI would consider the hunt in the example below a canned hunt.

https://www.africahunting.com/threa...frica-20-years-as-full-time-outfitters.53524/

@Tanks, let me have a try.

But first, we should be clear that lions are not alone in being bred in captivity. When South Africa went to the current model of private ownership of wildlife (a boon to wildlife numbers by the way), people could own the game on their (properly fenced) properties. They then began to breed many types of game to create colour variations, bigger bodies, bigger horns, etc. Many of these animals - and that includes much of the "glamour game" such as sable, roan and cape buffalo - are regularly bred in captivity and then those animals are released into larger areas to be hunted (once their breeding days are over) or their progeny are released to be hunted. This model is also followed in Texas with respect to many animals, including deer, by the way.

Now, on to your specific question. Sadly, there isn't one answer that we will all agree on. Much like the US Supreme Court and porn, we know it when we see it. Tying the animal to a tree is a canned hunt. Drugging the animal so it cannot escape the hunter is a canned hunt. Habituating the animal to humans so they come to hunters like pets waiting to be fed is a canned hunt. So far so easy.

I think we can also agree that releasing an animal - any animal - into an enclosure so small that you could effectively sit on a fence and shoot the animal, that is a canned hunt. The difficulty comes when we try to determine what size enclosure is so small that a hunt is "canned." I don't agree that releasing a lion into an area larger than the typical territory of a lion, with adequate cover and the presence of adequate food, where the lion has the ability to elude the hunter, constitutes a canned hunt. You may be looking for a captive bred animal, but that is no different than looking for a 48" sable, or a 44" buffalo, which have been released onto a large property after their breeding days are done. Certainly areas in the hundreds or even 10s of square miles would be fine, in my view.

If I had to put that into a succinct sentence, I would define a canned hunt as any hunt where the outcome is 100% pre-determined in so far as it relates to a specific animal ("here is a picture of the animal you will kill") and a period of time too short to have the result occur by chance or hard work. In other worse, "I will guarantee you that you will shoot that particular animal in a relatively short period of time." Even this, though , is inadequate.

Never forget that if anti-hunters are successful in conflating canned lion hunting with captive bred lion hunting and banning both practices, it's a pretty easy walk to lots of other animals which are bred in captivity, many I assume you might be fine hunting (if only because you never asked the question).

 

[SafariA]

Thanks for your reply . Please tell me which ORG that promotes CBL you are referring too and when did they say these animals cannot survive if being released in the wild .

Happy Hunting !

 

[Hank2211]

Thanks for your reply . Please tell me which ORG that promotes CBL you are referring too and when did they say these animals cannot survive if being released in the wild .

Happy Hunting !

I have never heard that captive bred lions could not survive in the wild, and I would also be curious to know who made this statement. As I have mentioned before, I have hunted captive bred lion and I have seen one of those lions take down game and feed on it. I have no doubt that lions do better in prides in terms of feeding themselves, but single lions (particularly males kicked out of prides) can also do well on their own.

Is anyone aware if an experiment has been run? I would be interested to know if any researcher has studied a group of lions released onto a fenced property with adequate cover, game and water.

 

[BRICKBURN]

..
Is anyone aware if an experiment has been run? ........

SAPA, if memory serves, assisted in a release int the wild somewhere.

I know there was a "release" in Mozambique. Memory does not serve on the source of those lions.
They were being kept in an enclosure after transport to be released into the wild to reintroduce the species to the area.

 

[Royal27]

In fond memory of another post by @JacoS

Might as well do it right then.

 

[spike.t]

The SCI is worthless. They give into antis all the time. The SCI is concerned with making money off of hunting conventions and selling record book entries.

I encourage all of you hunters and wildlife conservationists to stop supporting the SCI until they actually take a stand and do something to preserve hunter’s rights.

The NRA and Conservation Force do more for hunters than the SCI. When the SCI’s membership dwindles then maybe they will actually do something.

BTW, captive bred lion hunting is not canned hunting. Captive bred lion hunting is actually doing a lot to preserve the species.

Seems a bit short sighted saying stop supporting Sci.....not an expert but they have their headquarters in Washington DC so are close to your government departments.... They help fund court cases against where the antis are trying to stop hunting or delisting of species... and win or back appeals.... This I presume costs a lot of money ......So not sure why you are saying they aren't doing anything..... No organization is perfect but better to have one that is fighting than nothing at all.....and I believe your beloved NRA has a few issues from what I have seen on threads here......so how about instead of you mouthing off and saying don't be a member.... Or give money.... How about putting your feelings to them......simple....

 

[Mark Biggerstaff]

Hi all, I have been reading all the above posts concerning lion hunting. I may not be as well educated or have as many safaris as most of you. I am a working middle class Texan and will never be able to afford a truly wild free range lion hunt. I have only made two safaris to South Africa and have a third coming up this June. My PH has found me the opportunity to hunt a lioness in the Kalahari at a price I can afford even tho I can not import back to USA. I have been told to expect alot of foot miles for this hunt. There are more than just a couple females there. I look at this hunt no different than any of the plains game hunts I have done. Everything is behind fences no matter how big the property is. It is no different than hunting any of the thousands of ranches in Texas for Exotic and Whitetail deer. Hunting ranches range from 200 to 20,000 or more acres here. Animals are bought and sold, raised and released all the time. We never complain about it. Just accept it because thats the way it is.
We as hunters need to support each other in our hunts and not give fuel to the antis by bashing each other for doing a particular hunt if we dont agree with it. I for one will post pic of my hunt if I am successful here on AH. But as for posting on other social media a may not. Some people that know I am planning a lioness hunt are already giving me grief about doing it. If you can not support each other in my opinion it is best to keep your mouth shut as to not add fuel to the antis.

If any of the AH moderators need to edit due to my grammar feel free to.