Captive Lions For Sale At Safari Club International

[edward]

Ron Thomson also made a study of the CBL vs. canned hunting issue and his findings - which contradict the conclusions of @Fred Gunner - can be found at the True Green Alliance website.

In addition, for those without the attention span to read a bunch of stuff, in episodes 24 and 25 of the Africa's Sportsman Show, which can be found on YouTube, the hosts set out to find out what a CBL hunt is really like, taking two lions along the way (with double rifles - some pretty good shooting there!). They reach their own conclusions after their hunts, and again, those conclusions back up the experiences of most of us who have been on such hunts.

There are two ways of looking at this.

The first is that this sort of hunting isn't for you. Either you don't want to hunt captive bred animals (in which case you ought to be consistent), or you just don't want to hunt lions (some won't hunt what they won't eat). Both are positions which I can support even if they are not for me. In this case, you should not oppose those who do want to engage in this legal practice.

The second way to look at this is to say that there is something inherently illegitimate about hunting captive bred lions, on the basis that it is really "canned" hunting. In this case, I suggest that not only is there no real evidence to support your argument, but that if you do in fact hold this belief, you need to apply it across the board to all high fenced game hunting in South Africa, Namibia and elsewhere. If that is the case, you may need to look in a mirror and see if you aren't just a little bit like the animal rights people who value individual animals over species. I say that because without the South African model of game ranching, it's likely that South Africa would have more in common with Kenya rather than less when it comes to wildlife numbers. And when I say that there is no real evidence, I don't mean that there haven't been cases where people have engaged in lion hunts in a manner which is reprehensible as well as illegal. Obviously, some have. I've seen the video. But we don't stop people from legally hunting because poachers do the same thing in an illegal manner.

lot of pg killed illegally also,not just lions.

 

[375Fox]

This article is very interesting and relates to this topic, the statistics are from 2016, it’s a concerning trend
https://www.peterflack.co.za/hunting-statistics-2016/

 

[IdaRam]

This article is very interesting and relates to this topic, the statistics are from 2016, it’s a concerning trend
https://www.peterflack.co.za/hunting-statistics-2016/

Thank you for posting this article. It is a very interesting read. So interesting I went back and re-read it. And then came back a while later and read it again. It contains a number of nuances that take a bit of absorbing and thinking beyond the topic of Captive Bred Lions.
On my first pass through the article I read “canned killing” in a number of spots and leapt to the conclusion he was referring to CBL. Hmm, not really. Next pass through I noticed CBL wasn’t referred to much and it seems he was referring more broadly to the general practice of put and take hunting, small acre enclosure (canned hunting), breeding for color variants, breeding for and supplementing genetics for out-size horns, outfitters selling “canned hunts” as actual hunts, etc.
Peter makes his opinion known about the CBL issue with the following statements, but Captive Bred Lions are only referred to a couple times. Everything else is about, well... everything else

... “I cannot join that man’s hypocrisy by simply condemning the breeding of lion to be hunted …” Although there is little or no hunting involved in the killing of most of these animals, the vast majority of which are domesticated beasts.

What with both Dallas Safari Club and SCI both coming out this year with statements condemning the canned lion and captive bred lion killing sickness, you can only hope that this activity will go the same way as the intensive breeding of unnatural colour variants – wither on the vine and disappear.

When read carefully and taken at face value, Peter’s article seems to take great issue with many SA hunting/ranching practices as a whole, CBL being just a small subset. I’m glad I read it several times. I think I agree with him more than I disagree?

 

[375Fox]

I’m glad you took time to thoroughly read the article. It really makes you think, I hope others read it. When I book new hunts now, I ask myself is there conservation value in the money I’m spending before I decide to book. I want to be able to justify hunting to non-hunters/local hunters that ask me why I want to go. There seems to be a growing grey area in South Africa between farming and wildlife. I’ve had several great hunts in South Africa but there are questions I ask before I go that I wouldn’t ask in other countries.

 

[Scott CWO]

Lion have also been released by the Duckworth family of Mokore Safaris and other operators in Coutada 9 in Mozambique. I know. I saw them.

 

[IdaRam]

Lion have also been released by the Duckworth family of Mokore Safaris and other operators in Coutada 9 in Mozambique. I know. I saw them.

And I very much hope to see them next year

 

[mark-hunter]

Some things do not seam, correct. Numbers, for example.
From said article:
I have come in for a lot of criticism over the years, predominantly from vested interests, for linking the drastic decline in overseas hunters visiting South Africa – from 16 394 in 2008 to 6 539 in 2016 (a drop of 60% in nine years)

6.539 visiting hunters in 2016?

On this link you have following info:
https://www.africanews.com/2019/06/19/the-big-business-of-south-africa-s-game-farms//
The game farming industry in South Africa has grown exponentially over the past 20 years from 3,500 farms in 1991 to over 10,000 game farms today.

So, 6.539 over seas hunters per annum (declining by 2016), are spending enough to fund up to 10.000 game farm operations, including new startup game farm investments?
First article is dated 2016
Second article is recent as of June 2019.

Numbers of visiting hunters simply do not add up, on first Article. So, I will keep myself reserved.

As for CBL, I am not against it. It provides possibility for blue collar hunter to hunt lion. Not everybody can afford to hunt wild lion of Tanzania, or any other - non-CBL-countries.
Most probably I will not hunt lion in South Africa, but not because I am against the practice, but at this stage of my personal hunting activities and planning, I simply do not plan hunting lions.
At this moment cape buffalo is of my interest.

 

[IdaRam]

I agree with you Mark, I am skeptical of those numbers. I also agree with you on CBL, under the right circumstances. I hunted Captive Bred Lion about 5 years ago and I had a very positive experience. Hunting wild lion was not and may never be in my budget. My preference will always be to hunt wild lion, just not an option for me.
Where I hunted was a reasonably large area, about 8,000 acres if I recall correctly, with a good number of plains game animals present in addition to both male and female lion present. While hunting lion I saw the following PG animals. Impala, warthog, duiker, steenbok, blesbuck, gemsbok and a few hartebeest. The lioness I shot had just failed in an attempt to take down a gemsbok from a group of four. In addition to the plains game present there were also some donkey on the property. We found multiple lion killed animals including 3 impala, one was likely from the day before, a gemsbok and a donkey. There were multiple water points scattered throughout the property. There is most definitely a clear distinction between “Canned” lion hunting and Captive Bred Lion hunting under fair chase circumstances.
Having actually witnessed a Captive Bred Lioness hunting gemsbok and seeing fresh kills I am skeptical of anyone who claims Captive Bred Lions are unable to successfully hunt for themselves.
Anyhow, glad for the experience.

 

[Frederik]

Mark, don't forget about the local hunter numbering far more than foreign hunters and they are the major source of funding the 10 000 game farms. Local hunters might not spend on a hunt what foreign hunters do but having 200 000 hunters to less than 10 000 foreign hunters makes up for the bill.

90% of local hunters hunt for meat/biltong and 10% will venture in calling themselves trophy and meat hunters. With the boom in game farms it is getting more affordable for local hunters to hunt buffalo, sable, roan and nyala where 20 years ago it was only the very rich. I'm sure you guys are also seeing the good deals that come by on doing Sable and Roan together what 1 Sable use to be.

Do your homework when booking in SA there are a lot of places that really give you a hard ethical hunt it is not always about how big the property is or how big the concession is but is it the animals normal home range? A kudu can hide and be lost never to be shot in a 500 acres farm in the hills of the waterberg mountains while that same kudu could be seen at a real distance on a farm in the open Free state that is 5000 acres.

Part of the fun for me to hunt is to go to an area where the animals naturally occur 2018 I hunted my Gemsbuck south of Kimberley and my Nyala and Common Reedbuck in KZN close to Hluhluwe with my good friend Boela Bekker.
I know not all foreign hunters always have the time to spend to hunt the aninals in their natural environment but then don't complain if your hunt was not as exciting as you expected, to outsmart your prey in their not normal natural environment.

 

[mark-hunter]

Mark, don't forget about the local hunter numbering far more than foreign hunters and they are the major source of funding the 10 000 game farms.

It is probably true. But I also think that local hunters hunt under different rules, and for less money. Is PH required to guide local hunters in RSA, for example? If not, then one additional expense less. If local hunter lives near by, no need to pay for lodging, etc. Trophy fees, permits, etc...

Do your homework when booking in SA there are a lot of places that really give you a hard ethical hunt it is not always about how big the property is or how big the concession is but is it the animals normal home range? A kudu can hide and be lost never to be shot in a 500 acres farm in the hills of the waterberg mountains while that same kudu could be seen at a real distance on a farm in the open Free state that is 5000 acres.

I absolutely agree with this! I hunted in Namiba, for example blesbok in high fence, it was one of the hardest to get.

 

[Scott CWO]

And I very much hope to see them next year

Do tell!!

 

[Frederik]

Mark, no we don't need a PH but we like to break away and hardly ever hunt just for the day or stay somewhere else also if you take for example that 1 hunter would spend $1000 easily per year on hunting and mulitply it by 200 000 hunters it is much more then what foreigns spend on hunts. The other currencies are welcome but the hunting will not die if we don't have any foreign hunters.

Except for Outfitter fees and hunting with a PH we do exactly the same pay for accomodation and the animals we hunt.

Lot of people will loose their job and hunting will be more for meat animals than trophy but the show will go on.

 

[IdaRam]

Do tell!!

Hunt booked for August 2021. I was originally booked for October of this year, but had to push back due to some unforeseen circumstances on my end. I’ll be hunting Buff and Plains Game with Doug.

 

[jeff]

I look at trophy fees for locals even for trophy animals and they are usually considerably less than half of foreign clients. If foreign clients weren't very important the outfitters wouldn't flock to the shows and pay the high booth space, lodging, airfare, rental cars and meals. All shows I attend are well represented with SA outfitters.

 

[jeff]

If there are 10,000 foreign hunters spending on average of $7000, that's a pile of cash!!! and probably the average expenditure is considerably higher, if the average is 10,000 that's already half of what the local 200,000 hunters spend.

 

[Doug Hamilton]

It would not surprise me at all that outfitters were selling captive bred lion hunts at SCI or DSC or anywhere else for that matter. Regardless of what some may think about these hunts, they are legal in South Africa, and there is a demand for them. They may not be advertised at the shows anymore, but if you ask, and are interested, and seem like a hunter, I have no doubt that many outfitters will accommodate. That's the business they're in.

We should make it clear, though, that there is a difference between a canned lion hunt and a captive bred lion hunt. I realize some don't want to make that distinction, but if you refuse to make it, then there are a great many places in Texas and elsewhere which would be engaged in "canned" hunting of many types of animals. Full disclosure - I have hunted captive bred lion on a 9,000 acre property and it was a more challenging hunt than many I have been on. The lion had every opportunity to elude us if he had chosen too. But given the nature of lions, they will eventually tire of eluding you and decide to confront you.

The challenge we face as hunters is that when things such as these semi-clandestine sales happen, we tend to lose the PR war. The antis are free to spout lies and half truths, which they regularly do. Note the use of "larger fenced enclosure" as distinct from "small pens" in the HSUS release - almost no non-hunter would expect that the "larger fenced enclosure" could be thousands of hectares with wild game for the lions to feed on. The antis know that the media is no place for nuance, so the Big Lie stands.

I wish there was an easy answer to all of this, but other than stating and restating the facts, and getting facts out there in various ways (such as Phillip Glass in the film "Trophy") I'm not sure what else we can do. At least until hunters' organizations, and those which cater to them - outfitters, manufactures, retailers, etc. band together to fight as one, cohesive, well-financed group, we are left with what we have. And the current trend is not positive.

Thanks for clearing up the difference between captive bred and canned lion hunts. I still think canned hunts should be illegal, but I can see a place for captive bred hunts

 

[Frederik]

Jeff, no doubt that the international hunters are spending but I will find the money the locals spend per year and if you read my post I say locals easily spend $1000 so its only going up in numbers.

 

[Frederik]

The big number for the whole hunting industry in SA is 10 billion ZAR, foreign hunters bring in 1.8 Billion ZAR out of that total amount. This includes from A to Z accomodation, animals, taxidermy and export of trophies.

Info came form the CEO of CHASA (Confederation of Hunters Association of South Africa)

Although local hunters bring in the bulk of the money trophy hunting sparks the industry so both sides are needed.

 

[WebleyGreene455]

I want to see if I properly understand the terminology being used here.

A "canned hunt" is when the animals have been raised in captivity, have little to no fear of humans, and may or may not even be drugged or tranq'd to keep them docile while someone up and shoots them.

"Captive bred" means that the animals are obtained from a controlled or semi-controlled breeding population but are released into a sufficiently sized hunting area and allowed to exist as they would in the wild until your party comes along and hunts them more or less the same way as going out into the wilderness.

Is that about right?

 

[mark-hunter]

@WebleyGreene455

In rough terms, I agree.
For "canned hunt" I would add, a relatively small enclosure. But generally, I agree.

The question that comes to mind is following:
How the client can know for certain, what kind of lion he is hunting? How to avoid being tricked?