Cannelure not right for a cartridge

[Capt_Oscar]

In an interesting twist (reloading master class): if you use bullets that aren't designed for your cartridge. IE: Using 50-110 bullets for a 500Nitro Express. The cannelure doesn't line up for crimping. Additionally, the seater die is designed for a roll crimp for the cannelure vice a tapered crimp against the bullet bearing surface.
So, I'm checking loaded rounds to make sure they fit in the chamber of my 500 Nitro Express single shot (TC Encore) but the Woodleigh 500gr FP loaded ammo is NOT dropping in flush because the case mouth flare to seat the bullets isn't being taken out enough.
IF you take the guts out of your (straight wall cartridge) sizing die and back the die out about 6 full turns you have the makings of a taper crimp. You just start turning the die in 1/4 turn at a time until I got just a hair of resistance. When doing a chamber verification, they will drop right in.

 

[deewayne2003]

Or you can use the CH Tool and Die "Can tool" to put a cannelure where ever you want.....

Cannelure Tool

Cannelure tool

chtoolanddie.com

Then use a Lee factory crimp die to finish it off right.

Lee Precision, Inc. - Custom Factory Crimp Dies

Custom Factory Crimp Dies

leeprecision.com

@Capt_Oscar ..... Why all the fuss about cannelure and crimping to begin with, aren't your .500ne both single shots?

 

[Capt_Oscar]

They are both single shots but the seating die doesn't take out the case mouth flare if you cannot roll crimp into the cannelure. As such the loaded round doesn't fall into the chamber. The case rim is actually a few tenths from going flush in the chamber.
As far as I know, the Lee Factory Crimp die is only a custom order and for many would be cost prohibitive. Taking the guts out of your sizing die is a inexpensive way to achieve the end result...
Never heard of the C&H Can Tool - I'll have to look into it further as there are some bullet manufacturers that don't cannelure any of their bullets.

 

[Rafiki]

They are both single shots but the seating die doesn't take out the case mouth flare if you cannot roll crimp into the cannelure. As such the loaded round doesn't fall into the chamber. The case rim is actually a few tenths from going flush in the chamber.
As far as I know, the Lee Factory Crimp die is only a custom order and for many would be cost prohibitive. Taking the guts out of your sizing die is a inexpensive way to achieve the end result...
Never heard of the C&H Can Tool - I'll have to look into it further as there are some bullet manufacturers that don't cannelure any of their bullets.

I had Lee make a Factory Crimp Die made for my 500 Sharps 2 1/2' (50-90 Sharps), At first they said they couldn't do it (don't know why) but I convinced then to give it a try. As I remember the cost was about $40, certainly under $50. Not expensive and worth the hassle.

 

[cajunchefray]

I had Lee make a Factory Crimp Die made for my 500 Sharps 2 1/2' (50-90 Sharps), At first they said they couldn't do it (don't know why) but I convinced then to give it a try. As I remember the cost was about $40, certainly under $50. Not expensive and worth the hassle.

Lee has made a custom Factory Crimp Die .500 Jeffery for me, using a 1" thread die body. I sent them 3 dummy loads with 570 grain Woodleigh SP. I don't remember the exact costs, but well under $100. Cheap when compared to the cost of brass, 3 die set and bullets. Worked perfectly.

Easier than making a new cannelure ring.
Lee's lead time today is longer.
I got mine in under 4 weeks, pre- Commie Chinese Virus.

 

[small bore]

In their instructions Lee states that a bullet needs no crimp groove as their Factory Crimp Die will form a crimp groove while crimping if hard pressure is applied.

I wonder how well this has worked for those who have tried it.

 

[Huvius]

… Taking the guts out of your sizing die is a inexpensive way to achieve the end result...

That’s the first thing I’d try.
Just take the deprime stem out of the full length die and smooth out the mouth flare.

 

[Rafiki]

That’s the first thing I’d try.
Just take the deprime stem out of the full length die and smooth out the mouth flare.

Yup, works like a champ. I've been doing that for years to taper crimp paper patch for my 45-90 and any bullet without a cannelure such as Hawk bullets.

 

[Grumpy gumpy]

In their instructions Lee states that a bullet needs no crimp groove as their Factory Crimp Die will form a crimp groove while crimping if hard pressure is applied.

I wonder how well this has worked for those who have tried it.

It does form a sort of cannelure in the bullet, really more like dents in it, holds the bullet tightly. The only downside is that it works the brass more than normal, not a problem on common brass , but rare and expensive brass needs more frequent annealling
Gumpy

 

[Troubleshooter]

As far as I know, the Lee Factory Crimp die is only a custom order and for many would be cost prohibitive. Taking the guts out of your sizing die is a inexpensive way to achieve the end result...

Lee's website shows the Large Series Factory Crimp Die available at $125. "Cost prohibitive" is a subjective term, but I doubt that many on this site are on Welfare.

 

[Capt_Oscar]

Lee's website shows the Large Series Factory Crimp Die available at $125. "Cost prohibitive" is a subjective term, but I doubt that many on this site are on Welfare.

I get it... But why spend $125 on a special die when you already have the sizing die at your bench and all you need to do is remove the decapping stem??

 

[Rule 303]

In their instructions Lee states that a bullet needs no crimp groove as their Factory Crimp Die will form a crimp groove while crimping if hard pressure is applied.

I wonder how well this has worked for those who have tried it.

I do this with all my reloads as I have the bullets sitting further out. It works perfectly and a custom Lee Factory crimp is not that expensive as I had one made for my 358RUM. Found out afterwards I could have used my Lee FC for the Whelen. Just stick the 356RUM in from the top, this works.
To me the Lee FC dies are the only way to go if you want to crimp.

 

[Rule 303]

I get it... But why spend $125 on a special die when you already have the sizing die at your bench and all you need to do is remove the decapping stem??

Because 1) there is less stuffing around, 2) no chance of collapsing the case neck, 3) you don't have to buggerize around to make sure the decamping pin is seated correctly 4) you end up with a better crimp, 5) you don't need a crimping grove.

 

[rookhawk]

In an interesting twist (reloading master class): if you use bullets that aren't designed for your cartridge. IE: Using 50-110 bullets for a 500Nitro Express. The cannelure doesn't line up for crimping. Additionally, the seater die is designed for a roll crimp for the cannelure vice a tapered crimp against the bullet bearing surface.
So, I'm checking loaded rounds to make sure they fit in the chamber of my 500 Nitro Express single shot (TC Encore) but the Woodleigh 500gr FP loaded ammo is NOT dropping in flush because the case mouth flare to seat the bullets isn't being taken out enough.
IF you take the guts out of your (straight wall cartridge) sizing die and back the die out about 6 full turns you have the makings of a taper crimp. You just start turning the die in 1/4 turn at a time until I got just a hair of resistance. When doing a chamber verification, they will drop right in.

Or you can use a lee factory crimp die to factory crimp where the canneleur isn't.

 

[mgstucson]

1. You will not make as secure of a crimp using the sizing die. It does not matter from a "set-out" standpoint due to recoil if you are using a single shot, but if an ammo carrier or a single round is dropped, banged around in the truck, or the round "roughed up" in some other way, the bullet can "set-in", get pushed into the case, and spike pressures, ruin accuracy, and/or cause an extraction problem due to high pressure. Of course if your rifle is not a single shot, you run all the risks above PLUS the risk of "set-out" under recoil.

2. Depending on the hardness of the jacket, thickness of the jacket, and the hardness of the lead underneath, even a custom made factory crimp die might not do the trick either without a cannelure. I swage my own bullets, so I know all those variables, and I still would never trust a factory crimp die alone, and I would not even fool around with the sizing die trick, with all due respect.

3. The only reliable solution is to make a good cannelure in the right place, AND use the factory crimp die. Buy the C-H cannelure tool, or the Corbins hand cannelure tool ( I personally think Corbins is better.) Then buy the Lee Factory Crimp Die. Do a good job, and never have to worry about the ammo ruining a great safari.

All these tools will do they job. Smallest to biggest. All these tools can be adjusted to put the cannelure where you want it. I personally own the last 3. Prices quotes are new prices, they do come up on fleabay occasionally.

C-H Cannelure tool - $135

Corbins hand cannelure Tool $260 (more leverage and more precision than C-H model)

The Ultimate Cannelure Tool (VERY appropriately named) My personal favorite but unfortunately no longer made. This is a picture of one I own. $200 when I bought it. (Ultimate leverage and precision for hand tool. You could probably cut the bullet in half with this thing if you tried hard enough, but it has precision stops to make sure you don't do it on accident.)

And just for grins and giggles, my Corbins Power Cannelure Tool with several custom wheels for making multiple cannelures at a time. Don't ask about price. It IS prohibitively expensive for most sportsmen. Great tool for multiple cannelures, grease grooves, or driving bands on bullets in large volume. It will do 223 on up to 510, bigger with some custom adjustment.