Can we please stop talking about "flat shooting" cartridges

[sgt_zim]

Not many will want to hear it, if you loaded him up some Berger bullet. It would be a game changer in the performance of deer. The mono bullet will zip through a deer. The Berger may not even exit dumping all the energy in to the deer.

Mono bullets are good for heavy animals that can make the bullet expand. For lighter game cup and core bullets will perform better from my experience.

About that energy dumping thing...

Every single bullet for every single cartridge made has a limit at which the bullet will lack sufficient energy to create 2 holes in the critter.

A 577 NE, fired from 50 yards at a cape buffalo, will almost always create an exit wound, no matter the shot angle. From 200 or 300 yards, it probably would not create an exit wound, especially on a quartering-to shot, and probably not broadside, either. Unquestionably, with the bullet fired from 50 yards the tissue damage will be more extensive than the one fired from 200 or 300 yards.

There are so many variables (MV, shot distance, shot angle, size/thickness of the target, shot placement, etc.) involved in determining penetration depth that it can't be predicted to any degree of accuracy, and ultimately, there is only one of those variables 100% under your control at all times: the bullet itself.

At high impact velocities, bullets with thin jackets and non-bonded cores tend to fragment, and sometimes quite badly. Hence, the genesis of the Nosler Partition bullet after John Nosler almost had a moose hunt go horribly badly in 1946. If you don't know the story, he came up on a mud-caked bull moose at about 50 yards, and ended up shooting it 7 or 8 times with his 300 H&H mag. After he finally put it down and started dressing it, he discovered most of those bullets had shattered on impact, and had only created nasty flesh wounds. If he'd been shooting from 200 yards instead of 50, he likely wouldn't have had that issue.

The 7mm Rem Mag was almost a failure as a hunting platform. At the time, the most common bullet for it was Remington's Core Lokt bullet. The number of bullet failures was extraordinary, so bad that a lot of people ended up thinking it was just a crap cartridge all the way around. Even as recently as the 1960s and 1970s, terminal performance was a very poorly understood subject (not that it's leaps and bounds better today, but it is better). The real issue was simply that those Core Lokts just weren't holding up at close shooting distances where impact velocities were still closer to 3000 fps than they were to 2500 fps.

Penetration is more a function of momentum than KE. To that end, a 150 gr bullet that fragments into 10 equal sized pieces (doesn't happen that uniformly, of course) means you have 10 different 15 gr projectiles trying to penetrate. They will not penetrate to the same depth as a bullet that retained 90% or more of its mass.

I'm glad you're having success with the Bergers, but for my money, Remington Core Lokt, Hornady Interlock/Interbond, and Speer Grand Slam are more reliable cup-and-core penetrators when fired at non-magnum velocities.

 

[Bonk]

I could not care less about the trajectory of the bullet. Flat shooting or rainbow arc. It makes no difference to me. A decent sized properly constructed bullet delivered accurately with enough energy to humanely dispatch the game is the only criteria I care about. Muzzle velocity, muzzle energy and trajectory mean nothing.

A rainbow trajectory is only detrimental in the theoretical sense. I will concede that less of an arc means the bullet is traveling faster over less distance and has less time for cross winds to affect accuracy. However, the difference in time is measured in milliseconds. You'd have to be shooting at extreme distances to quantify the effect.

 

[BeeMaa]

About that energy dumping thing...

Every single bullet for every single cartridge made has a limit at which the bullet will lack sufficient energy to create 2 holes in the critter.

A 577 NE, fired from 50 yards at a cape buffalo, will almost always create an exit wound, no matter the shot angle. From 200 or 300 yards, it probably would not create an exit wound, especially on a quartering-to shot, and probably not broadside, either. Unquestionably, with the bullet fired from 50 yards the tissue damage will be more extensive than the one fired from 200 or 300 yards.

There are so many variables (MV, shot distance, shot angle, size/thickness of the target, shot placement, etc.) involved in determining penetration depth that it can't be predicted to any degree of accuracy, and ultimately, there is only one of those variables 100% under your control at all times: the bullet itself.

At high impact velocities, bullets with thin jackets and non-bonded cores tend to fragment, and sometimes quite badly. Hence, the genesis of the Nosler Partition bullet after John Nosler almost had a moose hunt go horribly badly in 1946. If you don't know the story, he came up on a mud-caked bull moose at about 50 yards, and ended up shooting it 7 or 8 times with his 300 H&H mag. After he finally put it down and started dressing it, he discovered most of those bullets had shattered on impact, and had only created nasty flesh wounds. If he'd been shooting from 200 yards instead of 50, he likely wouldn't have had that issue.

The 7mm Rem Mag was almost a failure as a hunting platform. At the time, the most common bullet for it was Remington's Core Lokt bullet. The number of bullet failures was extraordinary, so bad that a lot of people ended up thinking it was just a crap cartridge all the way around. Even as recently as the 1960s and 1970s, terminal performance was a very poorly understood subject (not that it's leaps and bounds better today, but it is better). The real issue was simply that those Core Lokts just weren't holding up at close shooting distances where impact velocities were still closer to 3000 fps than they were to 2500 fps.

Penetration is more a function of momentum than KE. To that end, a 150 gr bullet that fragments into 10 equal sized pieces (doesn't happen that uniformly, of course) means you have 10 different 15 gr projectiles trying to penetrate. They will not penetrate to the same depth as a bullet that retained 90% or more of its mass.

I'm glad you're having success with the Bergers, but for my money, Remington Core Lokt, Hornady Interlock/Interbond, and Speer Grand Slam are more reliable cup-and-core penetrators when fired at non-magnum velocities.

After seeing the performance first hand of copper/lead bonded bullets and monolithic copper expanding solids, I will no longer subject game animals to the use of cup and core bullets. I have no problem with others doing so, but our hunting family is out of the cup and core (Nosler Partition, Remington Core-Lokt...etc) bullets for everything except punching paper.

 

[Inline6]

About that energy dumping thing...

Every single bullet for every single cartridge made has a limit at which the bullet will lack sufficient energy to create 2 holes in the critter.

A 577 NE, fired from 50 yards at a cape buffalo, will almost always create an exit wound, no matter the shot angle. From 200 or 300 yards, it probably would not create an exit wound, especially on a quartering-to shot, and probably not broadside, either. Unquestionably, with the bullet fired from 50 yards the tissue damage will be more extensive than the one fired from 200 or 300 yards.

There are so many variables (MV, shot distance, shot angle, size/thickness of the target, shot placement, etc.) involved in determining penetration depth that it can't be predicted to any degree of accuracy, and ultimately, there is only one of those variables 100% under your control at all times: the bullet itself.

At high impact velocities, bullets with thin jackets and non-bonded cores tend to fragment, and sometimes quite badly. Hence, the genesis of the Nosler Partition bullet after John Nosler almost had a moose hunt go horribly badly in 1946. If you don't know the story, he came up on a mud-caked bull moose at about 50 yards, and ended up shooting it 7 or 8 times with his 300 H&H mag. After he finally put it down and started dressing it, he discovered most of those bullets had shattered on impact, and had only created nasty flesh wounds. If he'd been shooting from 200 yards instead of 50, he likely wouldn't have had that issue.

The 7mm Rem Mag was almost a failure as a hunting platform. At the time, the most common bullet for it was Remington's Core Lokt bullet. The number of bullet failures was extraordinary, so bad that a lot of people ended up thinking it was just a crap cartridge all the way around. Even as recently as the 1960s and 1970s, terminal performance was a very poorly understood subject (not that it's leaps and bounds better today, but it is better). The real issue was simply that those Core Lokts just weren't holding up at close shooting distances where impact velocities were still closer to 3000 fps than they were to 2500 fps.

Penetration is more a function of momentum than KE. To that end, a 150 gr bullet that fragments into 10 equal sized pieces (doesn't happen that uniformly, of course) means you have 10 different 15 gr projectiles trying to penetrate. They will not penetrate to the same depth as a bullet that retained 90% or more of its mass.

I'm glad you're having success with the Bergers, but for my money, Remington Core Lokt, Hornady Interlock/Interbond, and Speer Grand Slam are more reliable cup-and-core penetrators when fired at non-magnum velocities.

I'm not sure we are on the same page.

My response was directed at a bullet penetrating (a mono) and the deer having to be tracked.

So I have shot whitetail with a 300wm (was 16 and well wanted the biggest) using a 168gr Sierra MK moving at 3100fps. From 10 yards to 200, the bullet always fragmented. The hearts and lungs were jello, all DRT. Just a complete system shutdown. All 3 of my sons have taken whitetail and elk(neck shot on elk to be fair) with my 6XC using 105 Bergers at 3050fps. They all have the same reaction, DRT. If your bullet zips through your animal the energy is transferred to the ground. I want the animal dead as fast as possible. Using Berger bullets it as always worked for me. Sample size of 29 deer and 3 elk, SMKs Sample size 13 deer, Amax bullets Sample size 7 deer. All these bullets are match bullets, you will read a lot online of people who say don't use them.

Went to Africa and shot animals with mono and bonded bullets. Of the 16 animals taken only 2 were DRT a black wildebeest and a warthog. Both taken with a 300wm 180 mono at 3006fps. The only animal that a bullet was recovered, from the 300wn was a blue wildebeest. The back of the bullets was poking out of the hide on the offside. Smallest was Springbok largest was the blue. The 375h&h with 300gr AFrames went through a Sable, Zebra, and Blesbok. The only animal a 300gr AFrame was recovered from was an Eland.

I'm not saying to use Bergers on heavy skin heavy bone game. I'm saying if the bullet matches the game meaning light skin animal for a light skin bullet jacket. Had Bergers been used on the plans game listed above, would they have been any more dead? No, would they have been dead faster? Yes, I do believe so.

I used a mono on my black bear, it was a pass through. 6.5CM 2850ish. He ran about 120 yards, had I used a Berger I don't think that would have happened. The reason I did not was I had never hunted black bear before. I had read stories about how their fur soaks up blood and you can loose a blood tail fast. Without the experience I was not willing to take a chance.

You are correct we do have a choice in the bullets we use. I'm passing on the experiences I have had with different bullets. My way is not for everyone nor is it the only way. It is information nothing more nothing less. I don't make money on telling people what bullets to use, I don't sell anything. Like other on here that have given me real world experiences, I'm hoping to do the same.

 

[CoElkHunter]

To me, flat shooting is a non-issue. Apart from a very specialized hunt--say, mountain sheep, where getting closer is often physically impossible--hunting equals staying within 250-300 yards max. Heck, seeing an animal far away doesn't even activate that tingle one gets when chasing an animal up close. May have something to do with our ancestral impulses--after all, we didn't evolve to kill mammoths 700 yards away with high-BC bullets.

Out to 300 yards practically all rifle cartridges available today are flat-shooting enough and will kill the appropriate game reliably. I just try to know my rifle and ballistics, put my zero where I think it should be and don't give it another thought. And if an animal presents itself farther away, I try to outsmart it and get closer--that I do find exciting, and success infinitely more rewarding than the bragging rights from a long shot.

Am I missing out?

Yes, your missing out. Look at post #64. That could be your destiny! LOL

 

[CoElkHunter]

After seeing the performance first hand of copper/lead bonded bullets and monolithic copper expanding solids, I will no longer subject game animals to the use of cup and core bullets. I have no problem with others doing so, but our hunting family is out of the cup and core (Nosler Partition, Remington Core-Lokt...etc) bullets for everything except punching paper.

I actually left the Core Lokts at home for my RSA hunt this past June. I had bought two boxes of factory Barnes TTSXs for the .300WM. I wanted to use the 168gr., but I couldn’t find any. I’ve never used Barnes or any other monolithic bullets for hunting before. I have to say, they were DEVASTATING on ALL the animals I shot, even with less than perfect shots. I’m not sure I’ll ever go back to Core Lokts for elk or larger sized game, unless I can’t find 225gr TTSXs for my .338WM. They’ve been MIA forever!

 

[BeeMaa]

I've really enjoyed the twists and turns of this thread. Changing from flat shooting cartridges to bullet construction...very informative. Hasn't swayed my opinion on either...but still, very informative.

 

[C.W. Richter]

I could not care less about the trajectory of the bullet. Flat shooting or rainbow arc. It makes no difference to me. A decent sized properly constructed bullet delivered accurately with enough energy to humanely dispatch the game is the only criteria I care about. Muzzle velocity, muzzle energy and trajectory mean nothing.

A rainbow trajectory is only detrimental in the theoretical sense. I will concede that less of an arc means the bullet is traveling faster over less distance and has less time for cross winds to affect accuracy. However, the difference in time is measured in milliseconds. You'd have to be shooting at extreme distances to quantify the effect.

the longer a bullet travels, the more it is sent off-course, by wind. outside of KY. lol

 

[Hogpatrol]

I've really enjoyed the twists and turns of this thread. Changing from flat shooting cartridges to bullet construction...very informative. Hasn't swayed my opinion on either...but still, very informative.

We haven't touched on Bergers yet either.

 

[C.W. Richter]

hot .264. it can do the job beyond! it's up to you. not words, but actions... 2200fps and 1650 ft-lbs at 1,000 yds. Trajectory Results - Flat-shooting Interesting Rifle Certainly not for everyone, but it blows anything 308 or 06 cartridge away! (and i love the 06!) The rest is just talking stories...
RANGE (YDS)
TOTAL COME UP (IN)
TOTAL WINDDRIFT (IN)
WIND DRIFT (IN)
VELOCITY (FPS)
ENERGY (FT-LB)
GYRO
0
+1.51
0
0
3500
4243
1.86
100
-2.4899999999999998
0.29
0.32
3354
3897
1.97
200
-3.3699999999999997
1.2
1.32
3212
3573
2.07
300
-0.88
2.77
3.05
3072
3269
2.18
400
+5.29
5.03
5.54
2935
2984
2.3
500
+15.47
8.05
8.87
2801
2718
2.43
600
+30.08
11.86
13.09
2670
2469
2.57
700
+49.58
16.53
18.27
2542
2237
2.71
800
+74.44
22.13
24.49
2416
2021
2.87
900
+105.25
28.73
31.84
2293
1820
3.05
1000
+142.7
36.42
40.42
2173
1635
3.24

 

[BeeMaa]

View attachment 484807 We haven't touched on Bergers yet either. View attachment 484808

LOL. Horses for courses I suppose.

I have no real world experience with the Berger line of bullets...but I've heard some stories.

 

[C.W. Richter]

*why the 6.5-300 was a contender in 3,000 yd competition. I've taken game out to 720 (sheep,) because I knew the gun and we were leaving. And, so can you. NOT with a needmore! lol I'd do same with a hot 7, 300 WM, 338 (hotter than WM lol. In reality a 338 WM is not hot. do your homework. AK at 150 yds isn't what we're talking about)! Not many bullets feature the bc/sd than heavy 264s and 338s. My favorite calibers. The fact that most people with their black pastic POS factory guns and pretty boxed ammo couldn't make that shot is of no consideration to my family. Immerse yourself and you will emerge victorious! and, forgetting moi, Art Alphin didn't find most of the factory options "interesting." Any Shot You Want.

 

[C.W. Richter]

Bergers are the most accurate bullets out far. I had some issues with game at close <200 yd range in the past, but they thickened the jacket and problemo solved. No problems with the Vs at 500+ yds. They are the only option in many cases out far...God Bless Berger! (re: the <200 yd game; we recovered them within 500 yds, following the red spray paint all over! the bullets blew into small fragments, as if you shot it with a shotgun at 25 yds.) smh Thanks to Berger, I know my elderly neighbor's property better than him! lol we asked permission.

 

[crs]

When this thread began it was about not using the term "flat shooting".

OK, lets not, but it may take a while to train all those who post.

 

[ducmarc]

I used to lurk around long-range hunter forum know they will give u a headache.what amazes me is how popular muzzle loader and bow season is.u would think those guys would never get a deer hell u got to 4 or 5 yards away. We're worried about the right bullet at 300 yards.they Don't even use gas checks.but clean the forest around my place.damn forgot what I was going to say.to much busch lite.oh and why are shooting sticks all the rage.if I would have shown up a few years ago with them hunting with those old timers I hunted with they would have asked the wife if I had parkensons.

 

[marksman]

To me, flat shooting is a non-issue. Apart from a very specialized hunt--say, mountain sheep, where getting closer is often physically impossible--hunting equals staying within 250-300 yards max. Heck, seeing an animal far away doesn't even activate that tingle one gets when chasing an animal up close. May have something to do with our ancestral impulses--after all, we didn't evolve to kill mammoths 700 yards away with high-BC bullets.

Out to 300 yards practically all rifle cartridges available today are flat-shooting enough and will kill the appropriate game reliably. I just try to know my rifle and ballistics, put my zero where I think it should be and don't give it another thought. And if an animal presents itself farther away, I try to outsmart it and get closer--that I do find exciting, and success infinitely more rewarding than the bragging rights from a long shot.

Am I missing out?

"success infinitely more rewarding than the bragging rights from a long shot"

Tom you make it look like there are bragging rights if you can pull off a long shot
that just means that someone has put the effort into having the gear and learning how to shoot a long shot and good on anyone who can bang flop at distance or puts in effort to be better
what you are missing IMHO is that anyone who brags about a certain shot is a fool who got lucky and surprised themselves with that shot, long distance or short
but also IMHO you have to be able to do the job and there are plenty who talk but cannot do the walk, even out to 300y, not enough practice, wrong bullet choice ect... or given up and think that if you can hit an 8' gong at 300y you can humanly kill an animal,
sorry but l disagree
success to me is a full freezer not the distance of the shot, have you seen the price of meat lately LOL

 

[Inline6]

View attachment 484807 We haven't touched on Bergers yet either. View attachment 484808

Actually...

 

[Tom Leoni]

"success infinitely more rewarding than the bragging rights from a long shot"

Tom you make it look like there are bragging rights if you can pull off a long shot
that just means that someone has put the effort into having the gear and learning how to shoot a long shot and good on anyone who can bang flop at distance or puts in effort to be better
what you are missing IMHO is that anyone who brags about a certain shot is a fool who got lucky and surprised themselves with that shot, long distance or short
but also IMHO you have to be able to do the job and there are plenty who talk but cannot do the walk, even out to 300y, not enough practice, wrong bullet choice ect... or given up and think that if you can hit an 8' gong at 300y you can humanly kill an animal,
sorry but l disagree
success to me is a full freezer not the distance of the shot, have you seen the price of meat lately LOL

LOL - I see your point (although it took me a couple read-throughs--blame it on the early AM).

Being able to shoot long distance and long-distance hunting are two different propositions. Being skilled at the former does not necessarily result in enjoying the latter. Bragging about reliably hitting the 10 ring at 700 yards is one thing; bragging about taking an animal at that distance--barring the special circumstances I cited in my post--usually elicits a "what, couldn't you get any closer?" from me.

I don't get close to my animals out of fear of whiffing a shot--I do so because, to me, hunting is the art of getting as close as possible to my quarry, ideally within a couple hundred yards max. Doubly so when I'm in Africa and I avail myself of the professional help of a PH and one or two trackers who know the terrain, the available cover, and the animals' behavior. "Filling the freezer"--and I do so wish we could take back the meat of African animals!--is a great side-benefit of hunting; the pleasure of outwitting an animal in its own environment is the real satisfaction. Heck, for my next safari I'll more than likely just take an open-sighted rifle.

To each his own, though. I truly don't begrudge long-distance hunters, and if that is your bag, bully for you (generic you). Although I have absolutely zero desire to pull the trigger on a faraway animal--it would give me as little satisfaction as if someone else were felling the animal for me.

 

[Newboomer]

LOL - I see your point (although it took me a couple read-throughs--blame it on the early AM).

Being able to shoot long distance and long-distance hunting are two different propositions. Being skilled at the former does not necessarily result in enjoying the latter. Bragging about reliably hitting the 10 ring at 700 yards is one thing; bragging about taking an animal at that distance--barring the special circumstances I cited in my post--usually elicits a "what, couldn't you get any closer?" from me.

I don't get close to my animals out of fear of whiffing a shot--I do so because, to me, hunting is the art of getting as close as possible to my quarry, ideally within a couple hundred yards max. Doubly so when I'm in Africa and I avail myself of the professional help of a PH and one or two trackers who know the terrain, the available cover, and the animals' behavior. "Filling the freezer"--and I do so wish we could take back the meat of African animals!--is a great side-benefit of hunting; the pleasure of outwitting an animal in its own environment is the real satisfaction. Heck, for my next safari I'll more than likely just take an open-sighted rifle.

To each his own, though. I truly don't begrudge long-distance hunters, and if that is your bag, bully for you (generic you). Although I have absolutely zero desire to pull the trigger on a faraway animal--it would give me as little satisfaction as if someone else were felling the animal for me.

There is no such thing as "flat shooting". Flat means horizontal or level. Every bullet has an arc of trajectory from the instant it leaves the muzzle until it reaches target. Each bullet has it's own unique trajectory depending on caliber, weight, powder charge, barrel length, etc. Some have less arc than others.

 

[F. Vaccaro]

I like a hole on both sides of game. If a bullet won’t completely penetrate a broadside deer what can you expect if one is turned more than you thought? To me, there is no such thing as too much penetration if the bullet still expands.
Here we could be hunting deer or elk & bump a sorehead grizzly.