Can we please stop talking about "flat shooting" cartridges

[flatwater bill]

The Sgt has some good points, but the misconceptions regarding ballistics and Newton's laws go far beyond the "flat shooting" fallacy. My neighbor told me about my 7-08 : "for about 300 yards it stays right there with my 7 mag, but then it drops off..." I replied, perhaps at that point, it realizes it has no business up there, says "WTF am I doing here?", and falls to the ground. He nodded in agreement. My point is, these ideas will never go away. Thanks for a fun thread...............FWB

 

[sgt_zim]

Your list shows all flat shooting calibers.
Add 9.3x62 and .30-30 to the list and see the difference. There are 150m calibers and 250m calibers. The slight differences in the same ballpark are not worth fighting over.
I'm not happy shooting a Gemsbok at 250m with my 6.5 (energy) or my 9.3 (drop) so want a "flat shooting" hard hitting caliber that carries enough energy to hammer these hardy beasts.
7mmRM or .300WM would be best but even a 30-06 or 7x64 would do.

I only included common cartridges that a new shooter might purchase. While 30-30 might be on the table for that kind of shooter, it most ricky-tick doesn't fall in the category of "modern bottle-neck cartridges." And while I love my 9.3x62, I wouldn't really consider it a good choice for a first time buyer. Somebody who'd buy a 9.3 probably already has at least 1 or 2 of the listed calibers in his safe.

My whole point in using MPBR (2 actually) was to demonstrate that all modern, medium game hunting cartridges are relatively flat out to 300 yards, and to provide some guidance to any new hunters who might stumble across my musings; why all of those calibers are excellent choices and are, for the kind of distances most people actually hunt, virtually identical in performance.

It really comes down to aesthetic, not performance, as they're all close enough in trajectory and energy at any given distance out to 300 yards as to not really make any difference at all. The animal you're shooting certainly won't be able to tell the difference between 1800 ft lbs and 2100 ft lbs.

 

[Woodcarver]

I might add here, I have always used 6" as MPBR for anything. As distance increases, so does the potential for error; shooter, distance estimation, wind, time from trigger pull to impact, animals doing what animals do, like move. Using 6" rather than 8" just improves the probability of a hit in the vitals when you move from the range to the field.
If we throw targets like prairie dogs into the mix, distances can definitely start to stretch. But then it really becomes something more like bench rest shooting, rather than hunting as most of us probably define hunting. I know guys that have pretty impressive prairie dog benches. One has a complete reloading bench setup in the back of his pickup to adjust loads on site, based on elevation and temp. Definitely a different type of hunting.
While I have shot a ton of them with the small, hot stuff, my preferred way of whacking prairie dogs involves very non-traditional methods. The last 4 were shot with a 458Socom shooting the 325gr FTX. The trip before that was with a 375H&H with 300gr Oryx loads. The 9.3x74R DR with 286gr NPs does a wonderful job on a prairie dog at 140-170yds. Still working on finding the magic load for the 45-70 DR; it hasn't met a prairie dog it could hit yet. The prairie dog really emphasizes the need to "aim small, miss small". Doing it with larger calibers adds to the fun.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

You wouldn't actually zero at 255 yards for the 6.5CM. You'd sight in at 3.5" high at 100 yards.

an 8" basis for MPBR is kinda stretching it for white tail, but would certainly be well within the ballpark for larger deer like red deer, elk, and moose, and would probably work for mountain mulies

@sgt_zim
My 25 is sighted 2.5 inches high at 100 yards. At 200 it's 2.7 inches high, zeros at 300 and is 8 inches low at 400 with 100 gn TTSX'S. The 115gn nosler balistic tip is along the same path but zeros at 275 and is 13 inches low at 400.
Bob

 

[F. Vaccaro]

We should also mention here that pointy sexy looking bullets offer no advantage at normal hunting ranges and that plain old round noses actually perform better on impact.

This folks!
limit your big game shots to under 300yds & a good RN bullet performs wonderfully!

 

[Inline6]

Everything is good in theory, it can drop 1" at 500 yards. The problem is a good number of "hunters" can't shoot 3" at 100 yards much less 300. So no matter what the bullet actually drops, if you or your gear can't make it happen numbers no longer matter.

Personally have made hits at over a mile on 1/2 moa size targets. People that know me ask how far can you shoot (insert animal here). My response, what are the conditions? Just because I have hit targets at long range doesn't mean I'm willing to shoot an animal at that range. Wind is a bitch and she will humble the best of shooters.

My opinion is if you and the rifle are not capable of holding 1 moa or less this conversation holds no water. Sure the window you are quoting works on paper. Now double that window for a 2moa shooter/rifle. Hell some of the things I have seen at public ranges I would not want some people shooting past 50 yards.

Yes it sounds like a good many here are capable, the new guy (old guys too) getting into this that have never taken a shot at 300 yards might not fully grasp everything that goes into making that shot. They just read on the box of ammo or some chart online that his comb can do it. Not realizing himself/herself may not have the ability to even make the shot.

For myself, I'm not worried how flat something shoots. I want to know how much energy it's showing up with. All my rifles, with exception to the .4 and up and ARs with RDS. Everything is sighted in with a 100 yard zero. My range finder and Kestral are with me. I'll dial elevation and hold wind as to not guess at anything. In Africa my guide was not sure about that. Once he seen how proficient it was, he no longer said anything about it.

YMMV

 

[Lance Hopper]

I haven't read more than the first few posts. But, along the same lines, can we stop discussing the merits of the modern 458 win. Mag. Vs. 458 lott, vs. 460 G&A, vs 450 NE, vs. 465 H&H, vs. 470 NE, vs. 475 no. 2. I hope that my point of, most of these discussions are moot, but intersting, is understood.

 

[geoff rath]

When I lived in Arizona, I made fun of high-power scopes on high-powered rifles. Was told many hunting stories where someone got an opportunity at an elk at close range. They couldn’t see up close well enough through their high-powered scope to make a shot however. Animals either get away (ideally) or got shot poorly and suffered. On my only Arizona elk hunt I used a Winchester 1886 extra light 45/70 with irons. Elk died immediately. I thought that was the only way to hunt.

The first time I was invited to a Hunt in Wyoming, the local who took me under his wing insisted I use his rifle instead. If I hadn’t, I wouldn’t have gotten that first Whitetail. Different world.

You are right, most bullets are built with a certain velocity in mind. You have to dig and research the ideal impact velocities of each bullet. 6.5 143gr eld-x was designed with creedmoor in mind. Now loaded in the faster PRC too. But the bullets ideal range of impact velocities remains the same. So this changes your optimal ranges.

Some companies now print intended ranges on the box. These two are a bit extreme but I was looking at another brand a couple weeks ago and it listed ranges like 100-600 and 150-700 yards. I think it was Nosler‘s new long range hunting ammo.


View attachment 484193

An interesting side-note to this fascinating thread, is Woodleigh (hopefully back in full production early next year, according to THEIR advice). Their bullets are manufactured, and recommended to
IMPACT velocities...

 

[MS 9x56]

I have a lot of friends who won’t shoot targets if the wind is blowing hard. I always ask them How are you supposed to learn hold off if you never practice in the wind!!!

 

[Goose Cracker]

I agree with the OP on the concept that all these 6m to 30 cals have essentially the same trajectory under normal hunting conditions. With a 20 bore, 22LR, 30-06 and a 375 you can hunt almost anything on the planet.

I'll be the outlier here and say I'm not a fan of MPBR. I sight in everything 1.5" high at 100 or less. I prefer 1" high at 100. My 375 and 416 are dead on at 100 (which also means they are dead on at 50y).

I have target turrets or a ballistic reticle on almost everything I own. And I shoot on targets out to 500 meters prone, off the bench, and off shooting sticks. Practice, no matter what method you use, is essential.

 

[Vinootz]

Using MPBR and comparing apples to apples (Nosler Partitions only), let's put this concept to bed for good. In common small bores, there is no practical difference in trajectories out to 300 yards, so PLEASE stop talking about it. It isn't even remotely interesting.

For people new to the sport, to me, the hands down winners of best cartridge selection are 7mm-08 and 6.5CM, simply due to a lack of recoil. Neither of them gives up any ground to any of the other popular hunting cartridges.

For the 270 fan bois out there, sorry, it ain't all that and a bag of donuts. It's good, but no better than any of the others.

cartridge	MV (fps)	Zero distance (MPBR for 8" target, in yards)	bullet	bullet weight (grains)	100 yard trajectory	100 yard energy	200 yard trajectory	200 yard energy	300 yard trajectory	300 yard energy
270 Winchester	3050	282	Partition	130	3.2"	2295	3.6"	1954	-1.3	1654
270 Winchester	2850	268	Partition	150	3.4"	2344	3.3"	2023	-2.5	1737
7mm-08	2800	261	Partition	140	3.4"	2087	3.1"	1779	-3.3	1507
6.5CM/6.5x55	2700	255	Partition	140	3.5"	1972	2.9"	1709	-3.9	1474
308 Win	2850	262	Partition	150	3.4"	2276	3.2"	1903	-3.2	1579
30-06	3000	275	Partition	150	3.3"	2530	3.4"	2124	-1.9	1771
7mm RM/280 AI	3000	289	Partition	150	3.5"	2596	3.9"	2241	-0.8	1925

So many nit pick ballistic performance, especially on forums. As your chart indicates, the differences in many non magnum small bores (above the 1/4bores) are negligible out to 300. I’ve been saying the same for years now. The average shooter never concerned themselves with such. The marketers and gun scribes fed this current trend, especially as long range shooting has gotten more popular. It sells more products. Pure nonsense to me. However, look on the bright side. It’s feeding a growing number of firearms owners, and it is encouraging a more thorough knowledge of such. Barring the stupid and unnecessary conversations, overall I suppose it can’t hurt. Personally, I think many should spend as much time practicing (especially offhand) as they do bickering about the negligible performance differences of cartridges. I appreciate your post, especially the title.

 

[marksman]

nobody uses calculated bullet drop and adjusts their scope for a dead on hold?

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

The marketers and gun scribes fed this current trend, especially as long range shooting has gotten more popular. It sells more products. Pure nonsense to me. However, look on the bright side. It’s feeding a growing number of firearms owners, and it is encouraging a more thorough knowledge of such.

Exactly! The gun media has to have new things to write about! Gun writers and their magazines get "perks" such as hunting trips to test and subsequently report on new products. Add to that "Everyone wants to be a sniper" without having to serve in the military, crawl through the mud for a thousand yards to set up a shot with an escape route, and after many successes, live with themselves.

Don't get me wrong, I am all for the hype that gets new shooters into our sports and renews interest in us old shooters. Let's face it, in America most kids no longer grow up with access to shooting and hunting. About 50 years ago I could wearing a red hunting vest, walk across town with a shotgun or rifle over my shoulder to get to the far hill. Remember having a shotgun or 30-30 in the "easy rider rifle rack" in our or our fathers' pickup trucks? Can't do that anymore...

After a few decades hopefully us mature shooters and hunters see through the media blitz for what it is, marketing. It is however essential to engage new blood in this old sport.

 

[CBH Australia]

Interesting thread and interesting points
I agree many of us don't shoot "long range".
Long range hunting is becoming popular but I'm not sure how many people are good at it.

I recall my first shot on game in South Africa was called at 235 by the PH my bullet hit the mark 7mmRm.

I generally don't shoot that far.

It's also come up that the man bun gun is a good low recoil target round. Let's keep it that way.
@Woodcarver can you pass that on to your mate with the chart.

Some young whipper snapper stated in another post that 6.5cm has better ballistics at long range than my of the geriatric .30s. I gather he doesn't understand its energy that kills not trajectory.

 

[425SCHADE]

Using MPBR and comparing apples to apples (Nosler Partitions only), let's put this concept to bed for good. In common small bores, there is no practical difference in trajectories out to 300 yards, so PLEASE stop talking about it. It isn't even remotely interesting.

For people new to the sport, to me, the hands down winners of best cartridge selection are 7mm-08 and 6.5CM, simply due to a lack of recoil. Neither of them gives up any ground to any of the other popular hunting cartridges.

For the 270 fan bois out there, sorry, it ain't all that and a bag of donuts. It's good, but no better than any of the others.

cartridge	MV (fps)	Zero distance (MPBR for 8" target, in yards)	bullet	bullet weight (grains)	100 yard trajectory	100 yard energy	200 yard trajectory	200 yard energy	300 yard trajectory	300 yard energy
270 Winchester	3050	282	Partition	130	3.2"	2295	3.6"	1954	-1.3	1654
270 Winchester	2850	268	Partition	150	3.4"	2344	3.3"	2023	-2.5	1737
7mm-08	2800	261	Partition	140	3.4"	2087	3.1"	1779	-3.3	1507
6.5CM/6.5x55	2700	255	Partition	140	3.5"	1972	2.9"	1709	-3.9	1474
308 Win	2850	262	Partition	150	3.4"	2276	3.2"	1903	-3.2	1579
30-06	3000	275	Partition	150	3.3"	2530	3.4"	2124	-1.9	1771
7mm RM/280 AI	3000	289	Partition	150	3.5"	2596	3.9"	2241	-0.8	1925

Agree 100% @sgt_zim
For all intents & purposes a lot of cartridges do essentially the same thing from muzzle to target within the generally accepted hunting range of 0-300yards you mention. Lets face it, most animals are taken well within this range, many within 100 yards realistically. Sure, some animals are inherently difficult to get close to and these will require a dedicated rifle/cartridge combo of high MV/high BC "flat shooting" capabilities. A rifle with a long barrel, large scope and associated weight and recoil that most of us would be no better off with, nor like the idea of lugging up and down a mountain side.
And to be totally honest, my most recent venture after a couple of deer indicated I need a lot more practice shooting from field positions, again something a lot of us could do well to undertake. I achieved the animals I was after, with shots as far as approx. 250 yards, however if the shots I took had been beyond 300 I would have certainly been wasting ammo...

 

[MS 9x56]

Interesting thread and interesting points
I agree many of us don't shoot "long range".
Long range hunting is becoming popular but I'm not sure how many people are good at it.

I recall my first shot on game in South Africa was called at 235 by the PH my bullet hit the mark 7mmRm.

I generally don't shoot that far.

It's also come up that the man bun gun is a good low recoil target round. Let's keep it that way.
@Woodcarver can you pass that on to your mate with the chart.

Some young whipper snapper stated in another post that 6.5cm has better ballistics at long range than my of the geriatric .30s. I gather he doesn't understand its energy that kills not trajectory.

The real issue is he doesn’t understand, because he doesn’t have the experience to separate the wheat from the chaff, or even know what that saying means.

 

[akrifleman]

Disruption to the nervous system kills, according to forensic pathologists. There are multiple ways that happens. A slow moving but small bullet can disrupt the heart overloading the brain, the nervous system can be directed disrupted, and loss of oxygen in the blood can do the trick. There isn't one way this can occur. How this is accomplished is not singular, which is why 150 year old anemic cartridges were still able to make species extinct.

Much of what we attribute to various cartridges is also age old knowledge from when bullets were routinely poor and failed often. Rare were high BC bullets that performed. No cartridge does the job, only the bullet. By an large we tend to focus on how the bullet gets there, which is probably the least critical part of the equation, and not on the reliability of the bullet and its placement. For a long time, that meant compensating for those failures with other methods.

Now that high BC bullets are constructed to perform under a staggering width of performance criteria, many of what was considered sub-optimal routinely perform as advertised. If anything, better than a rifle someone is afraid to shoot accurately. Just ask the 6.5x55 Swede. Every PH I called was more worried about bringing something you can shoot comfortably than bringing the thunderf*cker, as Petzal so aptly calls it.

Nowdays, with the advent of the high quality bullet and the lazer rangefinder, 700 yds is now a chip shot for all the guys I compete with (over 700 and hit probability drops for everyone - math). Many PRS competitors I shoot with have made boringly easy shots on game at 400-500 yds without an audience or seeking approval. There are a ton more guys that can make those shots than 10 yrs ago, which has driven bullet design and quality for everyone. I personally never advertise a distance I'm comfortable shooting, because it depends on what I'm carrying, and the conditions I'm shooting in. I owned a Weatherby 338 Lapua that shot incredibly well, but under zero degress, it got really really wonky. So, a shot I'd make in the fall isn't the same I'd take on a winter caribou, because my dope was unreliable under those conditions. I have a 17-204 which is a, dare I say it, a flat shooting beast. -35F and long pokes at predators are easy, unless the wind gets over 10mph, and then even my high bc 30gr hollow points get twitchy.

That doesn't mean the old ways don't work. Of course they do, as many trophies can attest to. Our most famous calibers are the ones that were the best expression of their era. The problem is the conversation. The newbie that shows up with the 6.5 Creedmoor believing he can suddenly shoot to 1000 yds is told he is an idiot, which he is not. He is simply new, and is given advice that is outright incorrect. Like the mythical bullet that falls off the table @300 yds, or that animals under 200 yds don't move fast enough and all animals over 300 will walk off before the bullet gets there. The newbie is new, but probably smart enough to see all the apparent misinformation, and starts to ignore everyone, because he sees shots made at further distances. Good teachers teach. Newbies ignore teachers who say "you just can't", because they correctly identify them as frauds that don't know. Teach them to shoot at 1000 yds off uneven barricades, and they start to appreciate how difficult a 500 yds shot at game can be. Honestly explain that most cartridge and bullet combinations will work, but some are much easier to afford, shoot well, and achieved their status because they regularly do well.

Just like most of us could work on our own trucks from the 60s and 70s, doesn't make them better (or worse). I have a quarter million on my 2011 3500, and it tows like a semi-truck from the 80s. I haven't replaced the points and clutch every 70,000 miles, and I need a mechanic and computer to even look under the hood crosswise. For the smaller bore crowd, perhaps you can afford a Ferrari. That doesn't mean you can drive it on most roads, rendering all that paper capability pointless. That doesn't mean I'm ready to part with my 1941 Dodge or my 1945 WC51. I simply appreciate the capabilities and limitations of them all.

 

[rookhawk]

Using MPBR and comparing apples to apples (Nosler Partitions only), let's put this concept to bed for good. In common small bores, there is no practical difference in trajectories out to 300 yards, so PLEASE stop talking about it. It isn't even remotely interesting.

For people new to the sport, to me, the hands down winners of best cartridge selection are 7mm-08 and 6.5CM, simply due to a lack of recoil. Neither of them gives up any ground to any of the other popular hunting cartridges.

For the 270 fan bois out there, sorry, it ain't all that and a bag of donuts. It's good, but no better than any of the others.

cartridge	MV (fps)	Zero distance (MPBR for 8" target, in yards)	bullet	bullet weight (grains)	100 yard trajectory	100 yard energy	200 yard trajectory	200 yard energy	300 yard trajectory	300 yard energy
270 Winchester	3050	282	Partition	130	3.2"	2295	3.6"	1954	-1.3	1654
270 Winchester	2850	268	Partition	150	3.4"	2344	3.3"	2023	-2.5	1737
7mm-08	2800	261	Partition	140	3.4"	2087	3.1"	1779	-3.3	1507
6.5CM/6.5x55	2700	255	Partition	140	3.5"	1972	2.9"	1709	-3.9	1474
308 Win	2850	262	Partition	150	3.4"	2276	3.2"	1903	-3.2	1579
30-06	3000	275	Partition	150	3.3"	2530	3.4"	2124	-1.9	1771
7mm RM/280 AI	3000	289	Partition	150	3.5"	2596	3.9"	2241	-0.8	1925

Great thread to stir the pot. In essence, they are all about the same. My preference is the superior throat length, twist rates, and heavy for caliber designs of the 6.5x55 and 7x57 cartridges, plus the better BCs they provide over 30 caliber cartridges, but in the end all my preferences and proclivities are irrelevant at reasonable shooting distances. (<300 yards)

The holy war is a battle on a theoretical hill for a theoretical scenario that never happens. Roy Weatherby lived on that same hill.

Just imagine, if it weren't for the impossible theoretical scenarios of a shot you'd never attempt to take anyway, the world would have been complete 100 years ago with the 6.5MS, 6.5x55, 7x57, 270 Win, and the 300HH, and 318WR. Thankfully, by introducing these 2% better theoretical scenarios we now have 6.5x284, 6.5CM, 6.5BRM, 6.5whateverthehell they invent today, the 26 and 28 nosler, the 280 Rem, 280AI, the 300WM, the 7x64, 7mm STW, 7mm Rem, 30 nosler, 7mm Shultz & Larson, 264WM, 284WM, every whetherby invented, and a cadre of other flashes in the pan.

I can't let @sgt_zim 's inflammatory troll post stand on its own without amplifying it as well.

One more reason none of this matters to me: I don't want the caliber 2% better for the theoretical shot I'll never attempt? The newer calibers are designed to operate in ugly, soulless guns that will be in a trash heap in a decade.

 

[cash_tx]

Using MPBR and comparing apples to apples (Nosler Partitions only), let's put this concept to bed for good. In common small bores, there is no practical difference in trajectories out to 300 yards, so PLEASE stop talking about it. It isn't even remotely interesting.

For people new to the sport, to me, the hands down winners of best cartridge selection are 7mm-08 and 6.5CM, simply due to a lack of recoil. Neither of them gives up any ground to any of the other popular hunting cartridges.

For the 270 fan bois out there, sorry, it ain't all that and a bag of donuts. It's good, but no better than any of the others.

cartridge	MV (fps)	Zero distance (MPBR for 8" target, in yards)	bullet	bullet weight (grains)	100 yard trajectory	100 yard energy	200 yard trajectory	200 yard energy	300 yard trajectory	300 yard energy
270 Winchester	3050	282	Partition	130	3.2"	2295	3.6"	1954	-1.3	1654
270 Winchester	2850	268	Partition	150	3.4"	2344	3.3"	2023	-2.5	1737
7mm-08	2800	261	Partition	140	3.4"	2087	3.1"	1779	-3.3	1507
6.5CM/6.5x55	2700	255	Partition	140	3.5"	1972	2.9"	1709	-3.9	1474
308 Win	2850	262	Partition	150	3.4"	2276	3.2"	1903	-3.2	1579
30-06	3000	275	Partition	150	3.3"	2530	3.4"	2124	-1.9	1771
7mm RM/280 AI	3000	289	Partition	150	3.5"	2596	3.9"	2241	-0.8	1925

My 7mm Mausers, my 7x57's, and my 275 Rigbys are all feeling very ignored right now. ;-) BTW, this is a great thread; worth scrolling through and reading every comment really. The only thing I would add is that a left-handed rifle in 6.5 Creedmoor fired in the southern hemisphere during the lunar equinox has an inverted trajectory; thereby rendering all chart-based comparisons irrelevant.

...and please don't share this chart with my wife. She needs to believe that there is a world of difference between all of these calibers, else I be asked to start selling them off. Shhhh.... ;-)

 

[akrifleman]

Great thread to stir the pot. In essence, they are all about the same. My preference is the superior throat length, twist rates, and heavy for caliber designs of the 6.5x55 and 7x57 cartridges, plus the better BCs they provide over 30 caliber cartridges, but in the end all my preferences and proclivities are irrelevant at reasonable shooting distances. (<300 yards)

The holy war is a battle on a theoretical hill for a theoretical scenario that never happens. Roy Weatherby lived on that same hill.

Just imagine, if it weren't for the impossible theoretical scenarios of a shot you'd never attempt to take anyway, the world would have been complete 100 years ago with the 6.5MS, 6.5x55, 7x57, 270 Win, and the 300HH, and 318WR. Thankfully, by introducing these 2% better theoretical scenarios we now have 6.5x284, 6.5CM, 6.5BRM, 6.5whateverthehell they invent today, the 26 and 28 nosler, the 280 Rem, 280AI, the 300WM, the 7x64, 7mm STW, 7mm Rem, 30 nosler, 7mm Shultz & Larson, 264WM, 284WM, every whetherby invented, and a cadre of other flashes in the pan.

I can't let @sgt_zim 's inflammatory troll post stand on its own without amplifying it as well.

One more reason none of this matters to me: I don't want the caliber 2% better for the theoretical shot I'll never attempt? The newer calibers are designed to operate in ugly, soulless guns that will be in a trash heap in a decade.

The cartridges of yesterday, were not the same yesterday. The 375 H&H was made for cordite, and bullets failed often. Partitions, AFrames, smokeless powder, quality optics, and the like were not available. Many cartridges all but ceased to exist for 50 years, and brass was unobtainium. Those 2% gains add up over time, and it was all driven by the next big thing, and the richness of manufacturing.

I love a 375, but I'm not sure I'd want to take a steam ship to my hunting destination, use very temperature cordite, and have bullets that failed so often that 4 bores were required for backup. Romantically it sounds fantastic, but who can afford to spend four months to conduct a Safari? If that results in a new flavor of the week, what do I care? Someday those new 6.5CM shooters may also come to appreciate the richness of the classics. It's been good for us all.