Can we please stop talking about "flat shooting" cartridges

[Forrest Halley]

He wanted to rid the earth of the manbun.

For every task there is a tool...

 

[colorado]

I bought a used Mark V in 270 Weatherby awhile ago, still haven't fallen in love with it, but it's accurate (hit a scuba tank at 845 yards five times in a row). Only been shooting Weatherby ammo so far, 150g Partitions at 3250 chrono'd. A fair comparison would be a 30-06 shooting 180g bullets. I still like my BDL in 270 Win, that I regret giving to my son, killed elk out to 600 yards with that one. Only about 200 fps slower with the same bullet. I limit myself to 400 yards these days max range.

 

[C.W. Richter]

What's the free recoil? There's always a bill to be paid. So what's the 6.5 mega death tomorrow cannon's shortcoming?

lol there's no noticeable recoil on any of my 264s (they have brakes for pinpoint accuracy at long range.) I've been tempted to unscrew em and take a few shorter shots, but the reality is going to be like shooting a small, hot-handloaded 25-06/6.5-06/270. That's about it. Never a worry. Even heavy recoiling med-bores (most of em) are still a pleasure to shoot (300, 338) without brakes. Lightweight 350 Rem Mag handloaded (200-250 gr)? No thank you. LOL Sold it. Too light for the recoil energy. Honestly, shortcoming is...IF you are a devotee, and will shoot well over 2,000 rds through the rig, you WILL be replacing barrels. I see that as more of a fav pair of boots wearing out (You just get new ones!) Which, I really have to do at the moment (bbl-23" Lilja after >2,000 rds S/S). Only shoots 1" groups now. What's the point?

 

[Rimshot]

My "only suitable for short range/brush gun" 9.3x74R @ 500 yards on 12" steel

 

[Hogpatrol]

My "only suitable for short range/brush gun" 9.3x74R @ 500 yards on 12" steel

View attachment 485923

Good shootin'! What was your drop?

 

[akrifleman]

Yeah, I know. I was using a hypothetical example with made up average numbers to explain why I believe that wind deflection between similar calibers does't mean a damn thing unless we're talking about extreme shooting distances.

Between similar ballistic coefficient and velocity, not caliber.

 

[akrifleman]

Between similar ballistic coefficient and velocity, not caliber.

I really should even go on to say, without reaching what seems to be the consensus extreme shooting distance. Even a 30-06 with a 10mph cross wind, can see over a foot variation between 220s, 180s, and 150s @300 yds. Just the combination of BC and velocity can make a tremendous difference.

Since I consider anything over 700 yds extreme (only due to hit probability), and under readily doable with a rangefinder, I used 300 yds as the example. I have a 37XC which I zero @800 yds, and have reached out to 2900 with, but that is a special tool not a routine hunting cartridge. The reason is that just a half degree of angular measurement is as large as the accepted MPBR diameter. ie A half-MOA gun is 3.5 inches @ 700 yds without wind.

 

[Rimshot]

Good shootin'! What was your drop?

Zeroed for 200 that's a 53"/10 MOA drop at 500 yards. I have a CDS turret for this load on my Leupold so I just dial to 500 and hold dead on. The 9.3mm 250 Accubond has a relatively high BC as far as 9.3's go. Scope has MOA hash marks for windage.

I heard a good technique for windage on a podcast. Plug your ballistics into a calculator and find the crosswind that causes an amount of wind deflection in MOA that is equal to half the distance in hundreds of yards. For example, with this particular combination a 7 mph wind causes 1 MOA deflection at 200 yards, 2 MOA deflection at 400 yards, 2.5 at 500 yards, 3 at 600 yards. This breaks down at extreme range but is useful for hunting distances. Once you determine the specific wind value (in this case 7 mph), you now have something to extrapolate with in your head without getting out a calculator. If I determine my crosswind component is about 15 mph, that's about double the 7 so you're looking at 4 MOA at 400 yards for example. What about 3 mph? Well that's half of 7 (about) so you're at 1 MOA at 400.

 

[akrifleman]

Zeroed for 200 that's a 53"/10 MOA drop at 500 yards. I have a CDS turret for this load on my Leupold so I just dial to 500 and hold dead on. The 9.3mm 250 Accubond has a relatively high BC as far as 9.3's go. Scope has MOA hash marks for windage.

I heard a good technique for windage on a podcast. Plug your ballistics into a calculator and find the crosswind that causes an amount of wind deflection in MOA that is equal to half the distance in hundreds of yards. For example, with this particular combination a 7 mph wind causes 1 MOA deflection at 200 yards, 2 MOA deflection at 400 yards, 2.5 at 500 yards, 3 at 600 yards. This breaks down at extreme range but is useful for hunting distances. Once you determine the specific wind value (in this case 7 mph), you now have something to extrapolate with in your head without getting out a calculator. If I determine my crosswind component is about 15 mph, that's about double the 7 so you're looking at 4 MOA at 400 yards for example. What about 3 mph? Well that's half of 7 (about) so you're at 1 MOA at 400.

Well, for a crossing full value wind. If you using a three quarter or half value wind, you have to adjust accordingly. Ultimately, it is a field version of windage, but still requires practice and solid wind estimation. ie 90 degree crossing wind is full value, 45 degree angle is 3/4 value, and 30 degrees is a half value wind. Any futher out, and you'll want to change from the ballistics calculator to determining your real values with measured wind (ie your real wind values vs estimated).

Definately a good technique, if that was lost in translation.

 

[Rimshot]

Well, for a crossing full value wind. If you using a three quarter or half value wind, you have to adjust accordingly. Ultimately, it is a field version of windage, but still requires practice and solid wind estimation. ie 90 degree crossing wind is full value, 45 degree angle is 3/4 value, and 30 degrees is a half value wind. Any futher out, and you'll want to change from the ballistics calculator to determining your real values with measured wind (ie your real wind values vs estimated).

Definately a good technique, if that was lost in translation.

Yes, I did leave that part out, thanks! Yes, only the crosswind component is really relevant. I'm used to figuring the component for my pilot job since it has implications for takeoff and landing.

And I certainly agree that if winds are really strong or distances are far, guesstimation isn't good enough.

 

[CBH Australia]

My "only suitable for short range/brush gun" 9.3x74R @ 500 yards on 12" steel

View attachment 485923

Don't discount it's use as a Brush Gun. You know bigs lumps of lead at close range will be hitting pretty hard.
.66moa is certainly acceptable accuracy for a Brush Gun.

 

[BeeMaa]

Don't discount it's use as a Brush Gun. You know bigs lumps of lead at close range will be hitting pretty hard.
.66moa is certainly acceptable accuracy for a Brush Gun.

Brush Gun? What the heck is a brush gun exactly? This term or definition always had me vexed.

I've heard many people describe what they believe a brush gun is. In their definition it's a short barreled (16-20") lightweight rifle that is best suited for use in thick brush. Some others have also added that they need to be able to shoot "through brush" and as such are in the mid-bore to big bore category. Another stipulation sometimes added is it's a lever action.

Whatever specifications are made for a brush gun, there is no way to accurately determine a bullets path when shooting through brush...regardless of caliber. A lever action, short barreled, mid-bore with a laminate stock be a handy rifle, but I'd never call it a brush gun. And as it pertains to this thread... that combination would not likely be considered a "flat shooting" rifle.

Apologies for the hijack. I now return you to your regularly scheduled dose of AH.

 

[Randy Bo]

View attachment 485782
For every task there is a tool...

 

[Forrest Halley]

View attachment 486608

I believe the French have a popular apparatus for such things.

 

[rdog]

It's the 6.5 Nelson-Whelen Improved. Handloaded to maximum performance! He wanted to rid the earth of the manbun.

Even better necked down to 6mm! or just go with a 243 Ackley improved.

 

[CoElkHunter]

I believe the French have a popular apparatus for such things.

Yeah, it's called the "rack". They lay the He-Hive participant on it and tie a rope to his/hers'/its' feet. They then wrap a bungy cord through the "hive". The top portion of the rack then continues to pull the bungy cord until the hive becomes straight hair or the subject cries out "35 Whelen!", whichever comes first?

 

[CBH Australia]

Don't discount it's use as a Brush Gun. You know bigs lumps of lead at close range will be hitting pretty hard.
.66moa is certainly acceptable accuracy for a Brush Gun.

Tongue in cheek comment for those who didn't pick up on it.

Brush Gun? What the heck is a brush gun exactly? This term or definition always had me vexed.

I've heard many people describe what they believe a brush gun is. In their definition it's a short barreled (16-20") lightweight rifle that is best suited for use in thick brush. Some others have also added that they need to be able to shoot "through brush" and as such are in the mid-bore to big bore category. Another stipulation sometimes added is it's a lever action.

Whatever specifications are made for a brush gun, there is no way to accurately determine a bullets path when shooting through brush...regardless of caliber. A lever action, short barreled, mid-bore with a laminate stock be a handy rifle, but I'd never call it a brush gun. And as it pertains to this thread... that combination would not likely be considered a "flat shooting" rifle.

Apologies for the hijack. I now return you to your regularly scheduled dose of AH.

BeeMaa, surely you know me better than that.

Even in Australia the legendary model 96 .30-30 might be a brush gun.

You could put a short.45-70 barrel in the Blaser and use that as your brush gun . Maybe buy one with a Sting Ray leather wrap so you don't scratch it.

Scrub gun, Brush gun or even the 12ga SxS Coach gun are all just short fast handling guns generally with a decent size slug that might be the choice for walking through dense vegetation. Not necessarily shooting through the Brush as such.

In Australia the Remington 7600 pump action Is pretty popular, mostly in .308 but I believe there is a .30 ought six carbine for the purists.

Just don't try dress up a .35Whelen in a Blaser platform , it would be like putting lipstick on a pig.

 

[CBH Australia]

This came across my news feed.

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Coincidentally I have been known to say Google are spying on us. My google suggestions often seem to come from something I mentioned elsewhere.

 

[CoElkHunter]

Tongue in cheek comment for those who didn't pick up on it.



BeeMaa, surely you know me better than that.

Even in Australia the legendary model 96 .30-30 might be a brush gun.

You could put a short.45-70 barrel in the Blaser and use that as your brush gun . Maybe buy one with a Sting Ray leather wrap so you don't scratch it.

Scrub gun, Brush gun or even the 12ga SxS Coach gun are all just short fast handling guns generally with a decent size slug that might be the choice for walking through dense vegetation. Not necessarily shooting through the Brush as such.

In Australia the Remington 7600 pump action Is pretty popular, mostly in .308 but I believe there is a .30 ought six carbine for the purists.

Just don't try dress up a .35Whelen in a Blaser platform , it would be like putting lipstick on a pig.

Yeah, I'm surprised Townsend @Bob Nelson 35Whelen doesn't have a 7600 in .35 Whelen? I know they chambered the Whelen in that model even today? My wife's relatives here in Pennsylvania, who I have hunted with, can't use semi autos for hunting, so many of them use the 760 or 7600 models in various cartridges.

 

[CoElkHunter]

Yeah, it's called the "rack". They lay the He-Hive participant on it and tie a rope to his/hers'/its' feet. They then wrap a bungy cord through the "hive". The top portion of the rack then continues to pull the bungy cord until the hive becomes straight hair or the subject cries out "35 Whelen!", whichever comes first?

I just wanted to clarify that this procedure is strictly voluntary on the part of the He-Hive participant. Think of it as an "intervention"?