Bullets that well advertised but were not that great

[Green Chile]

I have been working up a load for my 6.5 PRC (New to me rifle) with Berger Elite Hunter 156 grain for Red Stage, Sika Stag & Roe Deer this fall in Scotland.

In your experience, am I going to get into trouble on shots say under 200 yards that these bullets might not hold together? Berger claims the following but I was going to call them to discuss what I should expect from the muzzle to 400 yards using these bullets.

J4 Hunting Jacket​

J4 Precision Bullet Jackets are the #1 choice of custom bullet manufacturers. They are the most consistent and concentric copper jackets in the world holding an unprecedented +/- .0003” tolerance. J4 hunting jackets are produced slightly thinner to allow for 2-3″” of penetration before rapidly expanding, producing extreme hydrostatic shock and a massive wound cavity.

All of my Berger kills were with the 6.5 PRC or 7 STW. Longest shot was around 250…shortest was about 60. I would say their description is correct. You get a few inches penetration then rapid expansion with no exits. Stay away from shoulder bones. I hit an aoudad in the spine and it turned spine into pea sized gravel.

 

[JG26Irish_2]

I used Winchester Silvertips in 165g 308 offering exactly one time on deer. I had been hunting WV deer for several years with a 308 and had taken about five up to that point all with the 165g Nosler BT's using my own handloads which were about 1grain below max with WW748 powder. They had worked flawlessly all killing with one shot every deer taken and one very large Wild Boar in TN. When I encountered the Silvertip ammo, I bought a box thinking it might be an improvement on my hand loads. It shot well enough so I hunted that year with it. This would have been about 1997?

I encountered a large buck by surprise one day while returning to camp to assist a buddy. I ended up shooting that buck 5 times and hit it at least 4 of those shots. And three of the hits were in the vital zone. The buck died after being shot all to Hell and having its throat cut with a Gerber LMF. It hangs on my wall as a reminder not to use the Winchester ammo. None of the bullets were recovered and as best we could tell from the autopsy, the Silvertips performed like FMJ's and did not expand at all or very little. I was not impressed. I know that Nosler Ballistic Tips are not exactly the ideal hunting bullet but the Silvertip was not either on the other end of the spectrum. I switched to 44 mag for a while after that and then to a nice old Mauser custom in 270. Both worked very well for me. Without Silvertips, lol.

These days I prefer a good bonded core like the Federal Fusion or the Swift Scirocco and the occasional TSX mono for hunting deer or PG.

 

[BGGMKLR]

I used Winchester Silvertips in 165g 308 offering exactly one time on deer. I had been hunting WV deer for several years with a 308 and had taken about five up to that point all with the 165g Nosler BT's using my own handloads which were about 1grain below max with WW748 powder. They had worked flawlessly all killing with one shot every deer taken and one very large Wild Boar in TN. When I encountered the Silvertip ammo, I bought a box thinking it might be an improvement on my hand loads. It shot well enough so I hunted that year with it. This would have been about 1997?

I encountered a large buck by surprise one day while returning to camp to assist a buddy. I ended up shooting that buck 5 times and hit it at least 4 of those shots. And three of the hits were in the vital zone. The buck died after being shot all to Hell and having its throat cut with a Gerber LMF. It hangs on my wall as a reminder not to use the Winchester ammo. None of the bullets were recovered and as best we could tell from the autopsy, the Silvertips performed like FMJ's and did not expand at all or very little. I was not impressed. I know that Nosler Ballistic Tips are not exactly the ideal hunting bullet but the Silvertip was not either on the other end of the spectrum. I switched to 44 mag for a while after that and then to a nice old Mauser custom in 270. Both worked very well for me. Without Silvertips, lol.

These days I prefer a good bonded core like the Federal Fusion or the Swift Scirocco and the occasional TSX mono for hunting deer or PG.

I took a small baggie containing all of the pieces of four Silvertips recovered from four animals shot in Zim to the Winchester booth at the SCI convention in Reno. I patiently waited my turn to speak with the beautiful young rep working the booth. When my time came I introduced myself and handed her the baggie to which she asked "What is this"?
I told her that it was the remains/ fragments of four 270 gr 375H&H Winchester Silvertips that were recovered from African PG and then added:
"Im certainly glad that I wasn't forced to shoot a Lion in the face with one if those"
She could not get me out of the booth fast enough.
Regards
Spike

 

[JG26Irish_2]

I took a small baggie containing all of the pieces of four Silvertips recovered from four animals shot in Zim to the Winchester booth at the SCI convention in Reno. I patiently waited my turn to speak with the beautiful young rep working the booth. When my time came I introduced myself and handed her the baggie to which she asked "What is this"?
I told her that it was the remains/ fragments of four 270 gr 375H&H Winchester Silvertips that were recovered from African PG and then added:
"Im certainly glad that I wasn't forced to shoot a Lion in the face with one if those"
She could not get me out of the booth fast enough.
Regards
Spike

I have found the trade show info-babes to not be good for much other than to lure potential buyers into the booth. Most lack the technical background to discuss bullet structural failures. Whoever has been heading up engineering at Winchester has been well off the mark for many years. I shoot a lot of rimfire for both small game and target practice and of all the choices out there, the stuff coming out of Winchester has to be the worst or nearly the worst of all. What makes that even tougher is that most factory ammo I have used over the last five years or so, is as good or better than most of my best re-loads from 30yrs ago. This tells me that while the competition has raised the bar for great quality factory ammo, Winchester had gotten worse or remained the same at best. I have used other options from Hornady, Federal, Barnes and Norma to name a few and they ALL beat the best Winchester can offer.

"Hey Winchester, if you are listening, you are in danger of going out of business." Your customers are leaving you and that is a shame. In the 1940's, 1950's and 1960's you made some of the best rifles and at least decent ammo. You have hung on for decades based on your great reputation. But, in the age of social media, your weaknesses get exposed far more rapidly than in the past. Take action to improve your quality of go the way of the buggy whip.

 

[BGGMKLR]

I have found the trade show info-babes to not be good for much other than to lure potential buyers into the booth. Most lack the technical background to discuss bullet structural failures. Whoever has been heading up engineering at Winchester has been well off the mark for many years. I shoot a lot of rimfire for both small game and target practice and of all the choices out there, the stuff coming out of Winchester has to be the worst or nearly the worst of all. What makes that even tougher is that most factory ammo I have used over the last five years or so, is as good or better than most of my best re-loads from 30yrs ago. This tells me that while the competition has raised the bar for great quality factory ammo, Winchester had gotten worse or remained the same at best. I have used other options from Hornady, Federal, Barnes and Norma to name a few and they ALL beat the best Winchester can offer.

"Hey Winchester, if you are listening, you are in danger of going out of business." Your customers are leaving you and that is a shame. In the 1940's, 1950's and 1960's you made some of the best rifles and at least decent ammo. You have hung on for decades based on your great reputation. But, in the age of social media, your weaknesses get exposed far more rapidly than in the past. Take action to improve your quality of go the way of the buggy whip.

How bout we both wait breathlessly for a Winchester response to your painfully accurate rebuke?

 

[ftrovato]

I have found the trade show info-babes to not be good for much other than to lure potential buyers into the booth. Most lack the technical background to discuss bullet structural failures. Whoever has been heading up engineering at Winchester has been well off the mark for many years. I shoot a lot of rimfire for both small game and target practice and of all the choices out there, the stuff coming out of Winchester has to be the worst or nearly the worst of all. What makes that even tougher is that most factory ammo I have used over the last five years or so, is as good or better than most of my best re-loads from 30yrs ago. This tells me that while the competition has raised the bar for great quality factory ammo, Winchester had gotten worse or remained the same at best. I have used other options from Hornady, Federal, Barnes and Norma to name a few and they ALL beat the best Winchester can offer.

"Hey Winchester, if you are listening, you are in danger of going out of business." Your customers are leaving you and that is a shame. In the 1940's, 1950's and 1960's you made some of the best rifles and at least decent ammo. You have hung on for decades based on your great reputation. But, in the age of social media, your weaknesses get exposed far more rapidly than in the past. Take action to improve your quality of go the way of the buggy whip.

I find myself not being able to buy any of their products for several years now.....They have gone from 'The Rifleman's Rifle' to not competing in the current market.

 

[BGGMKLR]

I find myself not being able to buy any of their products for several years now.....They have gone from 'The Rifleman's Rifle' to not competing in the current market.

Sad indeed
Spike