Bullets do some weird things!

[jduckhunter]

On my recent trip to New Zealand I was once again disappointed by the over expansion and lack of penetration on my red stag by the Hornady IB bullets. I was using 225 gr. .338 cal. IB's in my .338 WM with a muzzle velocity of 2750 fps. I shot my stag at just over 400 yd. so the velocity would have been reduced quite a bit, down to a point that I wouldn't have thought that they have blown up.
But anyway after being frustrated with those bullets I switched to my back ups, which were Swift Scirroco II's in 210 gr. I hadn't planned on shooting a Fallow buck, but it is funny how plans change when the opportunity arises. Long story short I found myself watching a real nice buck making his way through the scrub brush and making really good use of the available cover. Eventually he bedded down in a nice thick patch of thorny bushes, we laid and watched him for a while, all we could really make out were his antlers and the top of his head. He looked pretty comfortable and we figured that he wasn't going to be moving any time soon, so we inched our way uphill a bit to see if we could get a better view. After moving uphill a little bit we could now make out the outline of his body through the brush. I was in a prone position slightly ahead of Jim my guide when he says see that branch to the left of his head with a y in it? And he continues with, it's 250 yards to him from here, do you think that you can put a bullet under that branch and hit him in the base of the neck? Well I like a good challenge so I say yeah, maybe. And I also said some thing like at least even if I blow the shot he will certainly stand up. After focusing on that small opening under that branch through my scope I realized that it wasn't that open but covered by smaller branches. I figured that if I did hit some of that small vegetation that it wouldn't disrupt my bullet path all that much seeing how close it was to my target. So since my rifle was zeroed at 250 yd. I held right on where I wanted my bullet to go and squeezed the trigger. At the crack of the rifle that old buck jumped up and took off going downhill, my first thought was that I had blown it. After slamming the bolt on another round I realized that he wasn't running quite right, both of his front legs were broken between the hoof and elbow and blood was every where. He only ran a short distance and went down out of sight in some brushy cover. Jim shakes my hand and says, you go down and make sure he's down to stay and I'll go fetch the truck. When I got to him he was stone dead and I could not figure out exactly why. I rolled him over and found a gapping hole in his brisket so I now knew why he expired so quickly, but what I couldn't figure out was how that hole got there. And to further the mystery when we skinned him out we found the bullet lodged up in his left shoulder. So what I can't explain is how did that bullet shatter both of his front legs, penetrate the brisket and wind up in his off side shoulder? Especially when he was bedded down slightly below me and my shot angle was downhill on him. The only thing that I can come up with is that his legs were folded in front of him and my shot was a little low hitting his legs and then being deflected upward and into his chest. I saved the bullet, it started out at 210 gr. and now is down to 157.7 gr., it mushroomed perfectly and did a lot of damage. Here's a couple of pictures of it. If someone has a better explanation of how that bullet did all of the damage that it did and wound up where it did please share it with me.

 

[jduckhunter]

Oh yeah and here's a photo of the end result. You can see that his front hoof is kind of at an odd angle.

 

[sestoppelman]

I used that same IB bullet, same weight and caliber in RSA a few years ago and had similar results. Recovered a couple of them and they had lost half their weight. I was only driving them about 2650 at the muzzle too. Not what one expects from a bonded bullet. I wont use them again for hunting.

 

[BRICKBURN]

I think the guy on the grassy knoll did it!

I'd go with your guess on the path.

Not about to change from TTSX, so the warning is wasted on me. It won't be wasted on others.

Thanks for sharing.

 

[JimP]

From the damage that it did and starting out at 210 grains it didn't do too bad of a job of holding together. 157 grains is only 30 grains less than what Hornady claims that they will retain which is 90% or 189 grains.

I personally believe that the only bullets that are actually going to retain most of their weight are going to be the solid copper bullets such as what Barnes offers. Just for kicks I think that I would send a email off to Hornady and ask them their opinion on why the bullet shed so much of it's weight down to 74% when they claim 90% retention.

Bullets do strange things after they hit something. I have seen them travel just about the whole length of a elk just under the skin before one came out of the skin. I have seen another where the animal was shot in the hind quarter and the bullet traveled down and blew out at the knee joint. This was on a broadside shot and I watched as the bullet hit the mule deer.


I'll also stick with my Barnes TTSX bullets in all the rifle calibers that I shoot.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

From the damage that it did and starting out at 210 grains it didn't do too bad of a job of holding together. 157 grains is only 30 grains less than what Hornady claims that they will retain which is 90% or 189 grains.

I personally believe that the only bullets that are actually going to retain most of their weight are going to be the solid copper bullets such as what Barnes offers. Just for kicks I think that I would send a email off to Hornady and ask them their opinion on why the bullet shed so much of it's weight down to 74% when they claim 90% retention.

Bullets do strange things after they hit something. I have seen them travel just about the whole length of a elk just under the skin before one came out of the skin. I have seen another where the animal was shot in the hind quarter and the bullet traveled down and blew out at the knee joint. This was on a broadside shot and I watched as the bullet hit the mule deer.


I'll also stick with my Barnes TTSX bullets in all the rifle calibers that I shoot.

Got two what started out as 140gr 7mm North Forks on the bench that now weigh in excess of 134gr. Have a couple of .300 NF's that started at 200gr now weigh 195gr. Swift A-Frames I'm sure will do the same.

 

[matt85]

looks like a great animal!

i agree with your theory on what happened. looks like the shot went low hit the legs and possibly the ground then bounced back up into the animals chest.

ive never tried Hornady's IB bullet but ive read numerous reviews that it was too soft so i avoided it. the Nosler Accubond is a much better bullet if your looking for a bonded polymer tip bullet. i used a 338 WM in SA recently on PG (borrowed it from another hunter) and the load used was factory Nosler ammunition loaded with Accubonds (cant remember the weight). this load put every animal hit with it down with authority ranging in size from impala to eland. the bullets that were recovered looked outstanding with excellent expansion. i didnt get a chance to weigh them but i assume it was well over 80% weight retention.

i personally use Swift A-frames and Barnes TSX for all my cartridges.

-matt

 

[Divernhunter]

I used the 225gr Swift A-Frames in Africa and they worked great. The scirrocos also work well when I daughter uses them.
I had problems with grouping with the Hornady bullet. I prefer the Swift bullets. I shoot TTSX bullets sometimes but my first choice is Swift bullets.

Of course one could ask: Just where in the animals death did the bullet fail? You shot and animal died. That is what a bullet is suppose to do. .....I still prefer the Swift bullets.

 

[sestoppelman]

I used the 225gr Swift A-Frames in Africa and they worked great. The scirrocos also work well when I daughter uses them.
I had problems with grouping with the Hornady bullet. I prefer the Swift bullets. I shoot TTSX bullets sometimes but my first choice is Swift bullets.

Of course one could ask: Just where in the animals death did the bullet fail? You shot and animal died. That is what a bullet is suppose to do. .....I still prefer the Swift bullets.

I have heard that that is what Remington told a customer one time when he complained of soft bullets recovered. On the one hand, yes, a dead animal is a dead animal. But at the same time we expect a products claims to be at least close to those claims. In the case of the IB bullets I used, they did the job with proper placement, true enough, but lost half their weight doing it and penetration was spotty. I agree with the above about Nosler Accubonds, I used them in 9.3 caliber and was happy with them.

 

[Divernhunter]

I would expect them to hold together better also since they are "bonded". Those look more like non-bonded bullets. The recovered Swift bullets(both types) looked like the Swift photos.

 

[jduckhunter]

Here's a photo of a 225 gr. .338 cal. Hornady IB bullet that was recovered from an impala that I shot a few years ago. He was shot at about 100 yards facing me, he was hit in the brisket and the bullet wound up coming apart and the pieces were found some where in the middle of him. At first I thought that my load may have been a little hot and the striking velocity might have been a bit high, but now I think that the lead is just too soft and they just won't stay together. Not what I expected from a bonded bullet.

 

[TokkieM]

Photo of a 300gr Swift A Frame that broke both shoulders on a Zebra and traversed nearly the whole length of a Blesbuck 100yards behing the Zebra. Retained weight 289gr.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Photo of a 300gr Swift A Frame that broke both shoulders on a Zebra and traversed nearly the whole length of a Blesbuck 100yards behing the Zebra. Retained weight 289gr.
View attachment 43511 View attachment 43512

That's a helluva PH that can setup a client for a shot like that! Two animals and better than 96% weight retention, can't ask for more.

 

[TokkieM]

Thanks Phil,but the PH never did see that Blesbuck

 

[Hank2211]

Not about to change from TTSX, so the warning is wasted on me. It won't be wasted on others.

Brickburn, I'm a true Barnes guy myself. So I have a question. Have you noticed any "unusual" performance out of the TTSX lately? On my most recent hunt (a few weeks ago) I recovered more bullets than usual, I saw more petals broken off and on smaller animals than I expected, and I saw some quite strange changes of trajectory. For example, I shot an impala at about 100 yards squarely on the shoulder, broadside. On the video, you see the bullet go in, but it comes out about 6 feet to the right of the animal - you can easily see the dust where it hits the ground. I assume it hit bone and was deflected (by probably 70 degrees), but I've never seen that happen with a triple shock, especially on a small animal like an impala.

I've never had these issues in the past.

Anyone?

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Thanks Phil,but the PH never did see that Blesbuck

Kind of figured that but tried my best to make him look good!

 

[JimP]

Brickburn, I'm a true Barnes guy myself. So I have a question. Have you noticed any "unusual" performance out of the TTSX lately? On my most recent hunt (a few weeks ago) I recovered more bullets than usual, I saw more petals broken off and on smaller animals than I expected, and I saw some quite strange changes of trajectory. For example, I shot an impala at about 100 yards squarely on the shoulder, broadside. On the video, you see the bullet go in, but it comes out about 6 feet to the right of the animal - you can easily see the dust where it hits the ground. I assume it hit bone and was deflected (by probably 70 degrees), but I've never seen that happen with a triple shock, especially on a small animal like an impala.

I've never had these issues in the past.

Anyone?

I only wish that I could recover a TTSX bullet that I have shot out of my .340 Weatherby. On my trip last month I didn't recover a single bullet and the ranges were from 80 yards on a impala to 389 yards on a kudu. Also from what I remember of the shots and where the dust kicked up at they went straight through the animals with no deflection. All my animals were one shot kills except for my gemsbuck and blesbuck. The blesbuck took 3 shots and I had 4 into the gemsbuck before it went down for good.

 

[Hank2211]

I only wish that I could recover a TTSX bullet that I have shot out of my .340 Weatherby. On my trip last month I didn't recover a single bullet and the ranges were from 80 yards on a impala to 389 yards on a kudu. Also from what I remember of the shots and where the dust kicked up at they went straight through the animals with no deflection. All my animals were one shot kills except for my gemsbuck and blesbuck. The blesbuck took 3 shots and I had 4 into the gemsbuck before it went down for good.

Maybe I had a funny batch . . . sure hope so. Not changing yet.

 

[flatwater bill]

duckman.......................338 shotguns can be quite effective on fallow deer. Sounds like you hit a branch before you hit the deer.............BTW nice fallow.........................FWB

 

[matt85]

here is a 300gr .416" Barnes TSX after hitting a blue wildebeest in the chest at around 40-50 yards. the 300gr bullet was loaded to 2650fps from a Winchester M70 in 416 RM and weight after expansion is a healthy 299.4gr!




gotta love Barnes TSX, the widest point of expansion was 0.816" and the thinnest part was .646".

-matt