Best rifle for 458 WM?

[Cheesehead]

My personal record speed-shooter weighs 9.0 lbs bare, empty, unloaded.
9 lbs 4oz with scope bases and Burris FF3 red dot added.
It is very comfortable to shoot with the Hornady 500-gr DGX&DGS factory loads delivering an honest 2140 fps MV:View attachment 643906

Hey, I've got one of those too! That rear sight is a little weird but the gun makes me happy.

Memo to self: I need to take better pics of my rifles

 

[RLL]

One more M70 Winchester Classic featuring a JES re-bore of a .375 H&H stainless barrel swapped onto another M70 Classic action and some fantastic wood,
A friend with more refined taste than I built this and I unburdened him of it after he took it to Africa and slew buffalo at 30 yards and plains game at close to 200 yards,
using the 404-gr Hammer at +2500 fps, all one shot kills:

View attachment 643881

View attachment 643882View attachment 643883


View attachment 643884

Question for you, Have you tested any other powders beyond AA2230? X-term, TAC, benchmark, W748?

 

[Riflecrank]

RLL,
Yes, many.
Any powder good in the .223/5.56 NATO is excellent in the .458 WinMag.

AA-2230 is always a good choice.
AA-2460s: I SWAG it is same as AA-2230 but with all balls left spherical instead of about half of them squashed flat.
TAC is pretty close to same as AA-2230.
Ditto H335.
Ditto Ramshot X-Terminator.

AA-5744 with 250-grainers at 2700 fps is excellent for a light recoil gamegetter. You can go up to 3000 fps with it too.

H4198 with 250-grainer is excellent if you want +3000 fps with lower pressure than you can do with faster powders. Also +2800 fps with 300-gr (TSX) and +2700 fps with 350-gr (TSX)
300-gr Sierra Hollow Points vaporize at about 2800 fps, don't do that.

Hodgdon BENCHMARK is probably the most temperature stable of all and gets top velocities with the 404-grain Hammer.
It has replaced the old IMR-3031 and IMR-4198 I used in the late 1980s, for 500-grainers and 400-grainers respectively.

H4895 is most flexible, for reduced loads from 60% LR with no filler to 110% LR compressed maximum loads.

CFE 223 is excellent with 500-grain bullets near 2200 fps and that is about as slow a powder burn rate as you need to look to.

I never used Winchester 748 except in the 30-30 when I was a kid, but I have some of the new and improved version called
Winchester StaBALL Match: Temp stable and copper fouling reducing, cleaner burning than 748.

VARGET is a good alternative to Winchester 748 also.

Alliant Power Pro line of powders ...
Etc., etc., too many powder and bullet combos to shake a stick out.

With any powder from Accurate 5744 to CFE 223 on the burn rate table (#71 to #118 out of the total of 176 powders listed in the table I am looking at)
and any bullet weight and bullet type from 250 grains to 600 grains
you can find an excellent choice
in the most excellent cartridge of all, the .458 Winchester Magnum.
Use what you have, you will succeed.

 

[CZDiesel]

This is my 2002 Winchester Custom Shop 458WinMag with a 22” bbl that shoots Hornady DGS to an honest 2170ftps and DGX to 2150ftps! This was verified through both LabRadar and Garmin Doppler double verified! My best friend and @CoElkHunter witnessed…
That easily matches the 450NE or 470NE so what more do you want?!?!
Seriously! All the 458WinMag sceptics WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT!!!
Now I have no hate for the 458 Lott, but as a client I don’t see any imaginable reason for it? None!
The Lott these days is a specialized cartridge, like the Cap and the 500’s, for DG PH’s! And even then as the boys at Dalton and York who hunt a ton of DG will tell you the 458WinMag is plenty as that is what they use…
I have an upcoming DG for both Ele and Buff on the Save. My PH asked me what I’d be bringing and I told him that I have a 375 H&H, a 416 Rem, and a 458WinMg and he said without hesitation “Bring the 458!”. That’s all I need to know on the subject as he does this for a living!

That is the Custom Shop 458 on the bottom that I gave to my nephew and that is a 50 yard three shot group open sight out my 458 with DGS! Again what more do you want?

 

[Riflecrank]

Got it on the other thread, thanks, will go there.

 

[CZDiesel]

Hey, I've got one of those too! That rear sight is a little weird but the gun makes me happy.
View attachment 644067
View attachment 644068
Memo to self: I need to take better pics of my rifles

That is Winchester’s original “Roll” type express sight that they have used for over 75 years. My custom 1950 375 H&H still wears its original one and I really like it!!!
I can only imagine how much game that sight has taken seeing as how poor rifle scopes were back in the 40’s through 60’s…

 

[coreydb]

Currently CZ makes the CZ 550 in the 458, as well as the Heym Express ($$$$$) and the Kimber Caprivi; ($$$). If you don't want to spend a lot of money, go with the CZ, or troll Guns America, Guns International, or Gunbroker.com for used rifles

 

[Manwe]

If you know your rifle and load it should work very well for long range. Heck the .45-70 is still used as a long range rifle in BP matches and it doesn't push bullets as fast as a .458 Win Mag. If you purpose build your rifle with the right componets there is no reason you shouldn't be able to use it as a long range rifle.

 

[Cheesehead]

That is Winchester’s original “Roll” type express sight that they have used for over 75 years. My custom 1950 375 H&H still wears its original one and I really like it!!!
I can only imagine how much game that sight has taken seeing as how poor rifle scopes were back in the 40’s through 60’s…

I had no idea that was a classic winchester sight. That's cool to know. I don't have any issue shooting with the iron sights. They're probably as accurate as any typical express sight, at least for me.

 

[cajunchefray]

Hey, I've got one of those too! That rear sight is a little weird but the gun makes me happy.
View attachment 644067
View attachment 644068
Memo to self: I need to take better pics of my rifles

The Cabela's version of the Model 70, .458 Winchester from their 2011 anniversary(?) handle very nicely,
I think these were more to the spec of the 1956 Winchester M70, 458 African.

The only question is: " Why in the hell did I walk away from that M70 .458 in the Cabela's, Gonzales Gun Library?

Winchester should make another run of these early .458 WM.

 

[Cheesehead]

The Cabela's version of the Model 70, .458 Winchester from their 2011 anniversary(?) handle very nicely,
I think these were more to the spec of the 1956 Winchester M70, 458 African.

I agree. I bought mine on a whim. Once I picked it up, I had to have it. I read the same thing about them being made close to the specs of the earliest 458 M70s. That fits with what CZDiesel said about the sights.

 

[BeeMaa]

Currently CZ makes the CZ 550 in the 458, as well as the Heym Express ($$$$$) and the Kimber Caprivi; ($$$). If you don't want to spend a lot of money, go with the CZ, or troll Guns America, Guns International, or Gunbroker.com for used rifles

The CZ550 is out of production and has been for a number of years now. There is some new old stock for sale, but I can almost guarantee that it will need work to make it DG ready. They are notorious for their trash trigger, gritty action and feeding problems. This was the entire basis of AHR and Wayne’s excellent craftsmanship makes those rifles so desirable.

I had a CZ550 375H&H and experienced all of the above before sending it to Wayne for a #2 upgrade. I sold it a few years later in favor of the Blaser R8 and have no regrets.

The Win M70 is a great rifle, but it’s not a Heym Martini Express or even a Dakota 76 or Kimber Caprivi. As long as you look down at your rifle and it makes you happy…that’s all you need. Just make sure it’s reliable as well.

 

[CZDiesel]

The CZ550 is out of production and has been for a number of years now. There is some new old stock for sale, but I can almost guarantee that it will need work to make it DG ready. They are notorious for their trash trigger, gritty action and feeding problems. This was the entire basis of AHR and Wayne’s excellent craftsmanship makes those rifles so desirable.

I had a CZ550 375H&H and experienced all of the above before sending it to Wayne for a #2 upgrade. I sold it a few years later in favor of the Blaser R8 and have no regrets.

The Win M70 is a great rifle, but it’s not a Heym Martini Express or even a Dakota 76 or Kimber Caprivi. As long as you look down at your rifle and it makes you happy…that’s all you need. Just make sure it’s reliable as well.

You are correct sir! The Winchester M-70 is not a Heym or a Dakota or a Kimber! The New Haven Winchesters are better! As in so much better that none of those brands have the legacy that Winchester has cemented in Africa since the 1940’s…

 

[BeeMaa]

You are correct sir! The Winchester M-70 is not a Heym or a Dakota or a Kimber! The New Haven Winchesters are better! As in so much better that none of those brands have the legacy that Winchester has cemented in Africa since the 1940’s…

We are all welcome to our own opinions, and yours clearly is in favor of the M70. But to say that companies like Heym don’t have history in Africa is more than a bit narrow minded. Although not popular with Americans for this long, they have been making rifles for 150 years with a rich African heritage.

Not saying the Heym is a better rifle than the M70…but it is. In absolutely every single way.

 

[Cheesehead]

Not saying the Heym is a better rifle than the M70…but it is. In absolutely every single way.

This is kinda like saying a G-wagon is a better suv that a Ford Explorer... for how much more it costs, it better be.

 

[CZDiesel]

We are all welcome to our own opinions, and yours clearly is in favor of the M70. But to say that companies like Heym don’t have history in Africa is more than a bit narrow minded. Although not popular with Americans for this long, they have been making rifles for 150 years with a rich African heritage.

Not saying the Heym is a better rifle than the M70…but it is. In absolutely every single way.

I never said they didn’t have a history in Africa, I’m quite sure they do! But to say that they have a greater history in Africa than Winchester would not be the truth. I’d guess since the 1940s Winchester traveling to Africa have out paced Heym 100 to 1!
And I’d bet it’s close to the same in numbers of PH’s and game rangers that use Winchesters over Heym too! Winchesters has planted itself a long and very successful legacy in Africa that is unrivaled in use…

This is kinda like saying a G-wagon is a better suv that a Ford Explorer... for how much more it costs, it better be.

Winchester Model 70’s have gone at auction for a quarter of a million dollars, they are no Ford Explorer!
Heym’s are great! I’d take a custom Pre-64 over one all day long

 

[BeeMaa]

I never said they didn’t have a history in Africa, I’m quite sure they do! But to say that they have a greater history in Africa than Winchester would not be the truth. I’d guess since the 1940s Winchester traveling to Africa have out paced Heym 100 to 1!
And I’d bet it’s close to the same in numbers of PH’s and game rangers that use Winchesters over Heym too! Winchesters has planted itself a long and very successful legacy in Africa that is unrivaled in use…

I'd be interested in knowing how many PH's would give up their M70 if they could own a Heym Safari Express. How do you think that would end?

As for M70's going for $250K, they are most likely representing a time in history. Meaning it was owned by someone like Hemingway (with proof of provenance) or marked a milestone, like the first of a series or special edition.

If you were to try and sell a brand new M70 that you had bought and not used, shot, dinged or dented...you would most likely not make money on the transaction. Conversely, I know a member here who bought a Heym Martini Express, shot it about 20 times and sold it for a significant profit. The Heym is in higher demand than the current supply vs the M70.

The debate will rage on what is better or better value. But at the end of the day, the Heym has a higher level of fit, finish and function in every single aspect over the M70 and carries a price to reflect it. Those that are fortunate enough to own them know it.

I'm not arguing that the M70 isn't a great platform, it is. But comparing it to a Heym that carries a price of nearly 8x more than that of the Winchester isn't fair.

 

[CZDiesel]

I'd be interested in knowing how many PH's would give up their M70 if they could own a Heym Safari Express. How do you think that would end?

As for M70's going for $250K, they are most likely representing a time in history. Meaning it was owned by someone like Hemingway (with proof of provenance) or marked a milestone, like the first of a series or special edition.

If you were to try and sell a brand new M70 that you had bought and not used, shot, dinged or dented...you would most likely not make money on the transaction. Conversely, I know a member here who bought a Heym Martini Express, shot it about 20 times and sold it for a significant profit. The Heym is in higher demand than the current supply vs the M70.

The debate will rage on what is better or better value. But at the end of the day, the Heym has a higher level of fit, finish and function in every single aspect over the M70 and carries a price to reflect it. Those that are fortunate enough to own them know it.

I'm not arguing that the M70 isn't a great platform, it is. But comparing it to a Heym that carries a price of nearly 8x more than that of the Winchester isn't fair.

Again respectfully I’m not sure that you understand what New Haven Winchester Custom Shop rifles are or how Pre-64 Winchesters were made?
They both are completely hand made and fitted and the Pre-64s are hand machined! My 2002 Custom Shop 458WinMag was hand built, hand fitted, custom wood stock, hand checkered, inletted rear swivel base, Pachymer decelerator pad, barrel band, custom bluing finished, controlled action feed, hand honed action, hand squared lugs on the bolt body, hand polished bolt face, hand engine turned bolt, Wolf firing pin and spring, hand lapped and hand crowned match grade barrel, one piece steel pinned trigger guard, three leaf express rear sight, and an adjustable hooded front sight!
Please tell me how the Heym is better fit, finish, or function?
My 1950 “Transition” Pre-64 375 H&H has all the same done but wears an exhibition grade Turkish walnut stock. Both with shoot touching three leaf clovers at 50 yards with open sight while standing shots are taken!
The Pre-64 375 is valued at $16,000
Again how is a Heym a better more desirable rifle?
Leroy Berry, one of the best custom rifle/custom stock makers on the planet just sold a less desirable Pre-64 with a stock not at the same level as mine for $15,000 on his web site!
Again how is a Heym better more desirable rifle?
Not trying to pick a fight, if you are a Heym fan cool! I like them too! But to say they are somehow a greater rifle than a New Haven Custom Shop rifle or a custom Pre-64 that’s just not the truth!
And we could guess about what the PH’s and game rangers would carry but we do know what they do carry! And that’s Winchester! Also my PH’s brother works as gun smith building custom rifles for Griffey and Howe is building a 375 H&H for their father who is a Zimbabwean living in Harare. The action? Pre-64 Winchester not Mauser…
Hope all is well! Merry Christmas!

 

[BeeMaa]

Again respectfully I’m not sure that you understand what New Haven Winchester Custom Shop rifles are or how Pre-64 Winchesters were made?
They both are completely hand made and fitted and the Pre-64s are hand machined! My 2002 Custom Shop 458WinMag was hand built, hand fitted, custom wood stock, hand checkered, inletted rear swivel base, Pachymer decelerator pad, barrel band, custom bluing finished, controlled action feed, hand honed action, hand squared lugs on the bolt body, hand polished bolt face, hand engine turned bolt, Wolf firing pin and spring, hand lapped and hand crowned match grade barrel, one piece steel pinned trigger guard, three leaf express rear sight, and an adjustable hooded front sight!
Please tell me how the Heym is better fit, finish, or function?
My 1950 “Transition” Pre-64 375 H&H has all the same done but wears an exhibition grade Turkish walnut stock. Both with shoot touching three leaf clovers at 50 yards with open sight while standing shots are taken!
The Pre-64 375 is valued at $16,000
Again how is a Heym a better more desirable rifle?
Leroy Berry, one of the best custom rifle/custom stock makers on the planet just sold a less desirable Pre-64 with a stock not at the same level as mine for $15,000 on his web site!
Again how is a Heym better more desirable rifle?
Not trying to pick a fight, if you are a Heym fan cool! I like them too! But to say they are somehow a greater rifle than a New Haven Custom Shop rifle or a custom Pre-64 that’s just not the truth!
And we could guess about what the PH’s and game rangers would carry but we do know what they do carry! And that’s Winchester! Also my PH’s brother works as gun smith building custom rifles for Griffey and Howe is building a 375 H&H for their father who is a Zimbabwean living in Harare. The action? Pre-64 Winchester not Mauser…
Hope all is well! Merry Christmas!

Here is a current made Heym in 375H&H selling for 14K. I'll let you tell me how your M70 is better.

GI Heym Express 375H&H

You are describing a Winchester Model 70 from their custom shop. The difference with Heym is that EVERY SINGLE RIFLE gets this attention and more. Heym is the only manufacturer who makes every single part in-house. Barrels, actions, stocks...everything. The barrel, action and magazines are specifically engineered for the cartridge to be used, so each rifle will balance and function flawlessly. Barrels hammer forged, actions cut from a single billet, even all the small parts are manufactured in-house for the Express rifles. Heym is in complete control of the manufacturing process and quality assurance. Not to mention that they will do full custom fitting of your stock and let you pick the wood to be used. They are simply a cut above.

BTW - I have a good understanding of the history of the Winchester Model 70. From the humble beginnings of the Model 54. The legendary pre-64's. The cost cutting years of push-feed actions, of which they sold more than all the pre-64's combined. The 1992-2006 CRF/Push-Feed actions that were sold side by side with the "classic" CRF rifles from the custom shop. The closing of the New Haven plant in 2006 and manufacturing sent to South Carolina before moving to Portugal. The move to SC also marked the modern iteration of the M70 having a cassette trigger. I know a little history.

I've gone through this with the Blaser R8, hearing complaints about how they are no better than a Winchester Model 70. Most of these complaints are from people who have never held, let alone shot a Blaser. Have you ever held a Heym Express? Ever cycled the action, inspected the fit and finish? Maybe even done a side-by-side with a Win M70?

I would encourage you to go to DSC or SCI and do a close (and I mean really close) inspection of a Heym Express and let me know what you think. Most people will never know the difference until they see one in person, but the differences are startling.

You know, you never answered my question. If a PH was offered a Heym Express rifle for their M70... How do you think that would go? Currently there are approximately 50 PH's on Heym's website endorsing their brand.

PS - I hope you aren't taking this the wrong way, there is no malice intended on my part. I believe the M70 is a fine rifle. I'm just trying to show that there are many levels above those achieved by the legendary Winchester.

 

[CZDiesel]

Here is a current made Heym in 375H&H selling for 14K. I'll let you tell me how your M70 is better.

GI Heym Express 375H&H

You are describing a Winchester Model 70 from their custom shop. The difference with Heym is that EVERY SINGLE RIFLE gets this attention and more. Heym is the only manufacturer who makes every single part in-house. Barrels, actions, stocks...everything. The barrel, action and magazines are specifically engineered for the cartridge to be used, so each rifle will balance and function flawlessly. Barrels hammer forged, actions cut from a single billet, even all the small parts are manufactured in-house for the Express rifles. Heym is in complete control of the manufacturing process and quality assurance. Not to mention that they will do full custom fitting of your stock and let you pick the wood to be used. They are simply a cut above.

BTW - I have a good understanding of the history of the Winchester Model 70. From the humble beginnings of the Model 54. The legendary pre-64's. The cost cutting years of push-feed actions, of which they sold more than all the pre-64's combined. The 1992-2006 CRF/Push-Feed actions that were sold side by side with the "classic" CRF rifles from the custom shop. The closing of the New Haven plant in 2006 and manufacturing sent to South Carolina before moving to Portugal. The move to SC also marked the modern iteration of the M70 having a cassette trigger. I know a little history.

I've gone through this with the Blaser R8, hearing complaints about how they are no better than a Winchester Model 70. Most of these complaints are from people who have never held, let alone shot a Blaser. Have you ever held a Heym Express? Ever cycled the action, inspected the fit and finish? Maybe even done a side-by-side with a Win M70?

I would encourage you to go to DSC or SCI and do a close (and I mean really close) inspection of a Heym Express and let me know what you think. Most people will never know the difference until they see one in person, but the differences are startling.

You know, you never answered my question. If a PH was offered a Heym Express rifle for their M70... How do you think that would go? Currently there are approximately 50 PH's on Heym's website endorsing their brand.

PS - I hope you aren't taking this the wrong way, there is no malice intended on my part. I believe the M70 is a fine rifle. I'm just trying to show that there are many levels above those achieved by the legendary Winchester.

I absolutely don’t take it the wrong way or with malice. It’s just a fun and polite debate that I hope others get some enjoyment and knowledge from!
And I’d never hijack a thread but this one had run its corse so nothing wrong with having fun with a little banter my friend!

First, you are confusing FN Winchesters which are NOT Winchesters! FN changed the rifle and killed the best trigger ever put in a bolt rifle! Winchesters died after the New Haven facility was shuttered sadly…
Everything that you mentioned about how Heyms are built is the way a New Haven M-70 was built only Winchester built them on different levels. One could buy a standard for cost effectiveness, one could buy a Super Grade for a higher level of fit and finish, or one could buy a completely hand made and customer ordered one from the custom shop. The sky was the limit!
Yes the 90s and 2000s were CNC’d, just like Heym, but the Per-64’s were hand lathed by true craftsman! The tolerances were impeccable!!!

So to it! My 375 is better in every single way than that Heym lol

To start my 375 is more collectible and will out pace in value! Then, it has a better action, bolt, bolt handle, trigger, stock, checkering, stock design and ergonomics, cross bolts, bluing, jeweling, rear swivel attachment, front sight, larger magazine capacity, and I highly doubt that rifle was hand tuned, honed, polished, squared, and lapped!
The only things one can argue that the Heym has over my 375 are the machined bases, machined rear sight, and machined barrel band?
Though lol there are many that do not like machined bases and prefer non-machined. Also, I personally do not like quarter ribs or machined in express sights on a medium bore and prefer the sleeker and lower profile of the original Winchester roll type express sight. And barrel bands vs inletted front swivel bases on a medium bore is just but preference. I prefer the Winchester sling bases for better ergonomics…

I have been to both DSC and SCI multiple times. I worked for Swarovski and was a regular for several years at all the shows. This last year my friends and I went to DSC where I booked my hunt in Zimbabwe. The first place we went was to the firearms section and looked at and handled all of them! H&H, Westley Richards, Rigby, Mauser, Heym, etc…. So it’s funny you ask because my friends and myself ALL agreed that non of them was any better than my 375 and most not as nice. That’s a true story!

And to answer your question as to what rifle a PH would rather have? Obviously just guessing but a lot of these guys could afford a Heym but still carry a Winchester. And I’d bet if you put my 375 and the Heym you posted the majority would take my Winchester…