Best rifle for 458 WM?

[Markis]

It kicks but you can down load it with cast bullets and its pretty dern accurate. Or it is in my Ruger 77 in 458 WM.

 

[colorado]

Interarms/Whitworth rifles have M98-type CRF actions, classic lines, express sights, and run from $750-$1500 on the used market. Not sure how the chamber is cut as far as throat length…

This is mine in .458

View attachment 640314


Ed Z

Beautiful rifle!

 

[Hunter-Habib]

Please read this article by Finn Aagaard.

In short, yes. Different .458 Winchester Magnum rifles have different throat lengths which make it more or less difficult to achieve a higher velocity. Longer throats make it difficult to achieve higher velocities. Shorter throats make it easier.

The Winchester Model 70 has a long throat which makes it difficult to achieve above 2090 FPS with most .458 Winchester Magnum ammunition. The 22" barrels of the post '64 Model 70 rifles only made matters worse.

The best rifles ever made for the .458 Winchester Magnum, were:
A) The Mannlicher Schoenauer (only 77 made in this caliber)
B) The BSA Majestic (only 257 made in this caliber)

They had very short throats and permitted velocities above 2100 FPS to be easily achieved. In the case of the BSA Majestic, this was impressively accomplished with barrels that were only 20" long (minus those beastly muzzle brakes).

Now, the advantage of the long throat in the Winchester Model 70... is that this makes it better for conversions to .458 Lott.

 

[Zinz]

Beautiful rifle!

Many thanks. It’s really kinda plain, but I like the lines.

I have a Whitworth in .375 with a fairly nice piece of lumber

 

[Flipper Dude]

 

[CZDiesel]

Please read this article by Finn Aagaard.
View attachment 641248
In short, yes. Different .458 Winchester Magnum rifles have different throat lengths which make it more or less difficult to achieve a higher velocity. Longer throats make it difficult to achieve higher velocities. Shorter throats make it easier.

The Winchester Model 70 has a long throat which makes it difficult to achieve above 2090 FPS with most .458 Winchester Magnum ammunition. The 22" barrels of the post '64 Model 70 rifles only made matters worse.

The best rifles ever made for the .458 Winchester Magnum, were:
A) The Mannlicher Schoenauer (only 77 made in this caliber)
B) The BSA Majestic (only 257 made in this caliber)

They had very short throats and permitted velocities above 2100 FPS to be easily achieved. In the case of the BSA Majestic, this was impressively accomplished with barrels that were only 20" long (minus those beastly muzzle brakes).

Now, the advantage of the long throat in the Winchester Model 70... is that this makes it better for conversions to .458 Lott.

My Custom Shop M-70 has a 22” bbl and has no problem hitting 2100ftps? DGS does 2170 on average!
No need for a Lott unless you are a PH and I’d put my Winchester against any BSA or Mannlicher in fit, finish, and function any day! I’d actually bet on it against them!
And yes I’ve both seen and held those two and they are fine rifles! They just are not a Winchester Custom Shop rifle!

 

[ldmay375]

The Winchester Custom Shop produced some fine looking rifles.

Regarding the 458 Winchester and Finn, he also wrote in The A-Square Handloading And Rifle Manual.
Part of his commentary on the 458 Winchester:


"On the other hand, for over 10 years I used a .458 for elephant hunting, for backing up clients, and for following sick, dangerous game into the pucker brush, without suffering any failures attributable to the cartridge. For me it always did what one would expect of a 500-grain .45-caliber bullet starting out at 2000 fps - it tended to put big, bloody holes all or most of the way through any animal. That is with the solids. The first soft-noses were a bit fragile. They were great for lion, but expanded too quickly to always give the requisite penetration on buffalo. Otherwise the round served me very well. I liked the fact that its recoil was moderate enough to be quite controllable, even in a light, portable, fast-handling rifle like my 9-pound Westley Richards or my Winchester M-70 with aperture sights. (Almost everyone who has tried my .458 has remarked, "Hey, that was nowhere near as bad as I expected!") I also like the fact that ammunition was always available, as every professional hunter had a locker-full of the stuff that his clients had left with him."

 

[BeeMaa]

If you plan on being a traveling hunter, it would be wise to consider a Blaser R8 in 458WM or 458 LOTT. With the LOTT giving you the option of shooting either cartridge.

 

[Doug Hamilton]

Interarms/Whitworth rifles have M98-type CRF actions, classic lines, express sights, and run from $750-$1500 on the used market. Not sure how the chamber is cut as far as throat length…

This is mine in .458

View attachment 640314


Ed Z

I have one too. Don't intend to sell it, ever.

 

[HWL]

I've read in here before where the Win Mag fans like rifles with certain dimensions in the action to accommodate seating bullets long then clean up the throats to then emulate the Lott

Do not do that.....
The .458 Win-Mag is a powerfull cartridge and the bullet has to be crimped at the crimping groove firmly.
To seat out the bullet for more powder space is the key for malfunction.
Bullet in your magazine will move under recoil.
You do not want to meet the buffalo with lousy assembled cartridges like that.

HWL

 

[Axle2010]

Do not do that.....
The .458 Win-Mag is a powerfull cartridge and the bullet has to be crimped at the crimping groove firmly.
To seat out the bullet for more powder space is the key for malfunction.
Bullet in your magazine will move under recoil.
You do not want to meet the buffalo with lousy assembled cartridges like that.

HWL

Thanks for that i didn't think about the crimp

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

Do not do that.....
The .458 Win-Mag is a powerfull cartridge and the bullet has to be crimped at the crimping groove firmly.
To seat out the bullet for more powder space is the key for malfunction.
Bullet in your magazine will move under recoil.
You do not want to meet the buffalo with lousy assembled cartridges like that.

HWL

Hmmm,

1. During recoil inertia keeps cartridges in place as the magazine and rifle moves rearward.
2. The magazine may slam into the face of the bullets (projectiles).
3. This may push the bullet into the cartridge case, or could flatted a soft point of the bullet.
4. That would reduce case capacity.
5. All else being the same, reduced case capacity will INCREASE peak chamber pressure.
6. Increased pressure may but not always increase muzzle velocity.
7. The fired bullet will NOT have reduced velocity.
8. The bolt may stick and action not open easily, a rubber mallet may be necessary.

I wondered about my reloaded cartridges having their bullets moving into the case during recoil.
Do I need to crimp the bullets?
I conduct tests whenever I load a new batch of ammo.

1. I first measured the overall length (OAL) of all my cartridges.
2. I loaded my magazine with 4 rounds and inserted one more into the chamber (total 5 cartridges in rifle).
3. I fired 4 cartridges, leaving one unfired cartridge in the magazine.
4. I loaded 3 cartridges above the unfired cartridge.
5. I fired 4 rounds and left the one unfired round.
6. I removed the unfired round from the magazine.
7. Then, I measured the OLA of the unfired round.
8. I have NOT discovered any change in OAL in tests conducted for .375 H&H, .416 Remington and Taylor, and .458 Win and

I've conducted the above type test for:

• Cartridges with bullets crimped with Lee Factroy Crimp Die
• Cartridges with bullets uncrimped.

I am not saying it could not happen, but for the ammunition I have loaded (reloaded), shot, and measured, I have not discovered any change in OAL.

As little as $7 in the USA will buy one a cheap digital caliper.

Amazon.com : digital calipers 6 inch

 

[mdwest]

Similar results when testing my 376, 416, 45-70 and others…

I’ve never found a bullet to move during recoil…

So I don’t bother crimping in any caliber…

 

[SGW]

I have a M70 458 win New Haven in a box that has only been shot maybe 10 times. If you’re interested PM sir.

 

[cash_tx]

I have one too. Don't intend to sell it, ever.

I'm blessed to have two of these as well. Likewise, I intend to never sell them; rather I intend to pass one down to each of my daughters.

 

[Grumpy gumpy]

I always crimp my 458, as the cases get minimal resizing and the projectile literally sits on top of the powder column , if I don’t crimp the bullet can fall out if shaken hard/ jostled
Gumpy

 

[Riflecrank]

Some comments on HH's pronouncements:

HH: In short, yes. Different .458 Winchester Magnum rifles have different throat lengths which make it more or less difficult to achieve a higher velocity. Longer throats make it difficult to achieve higher velocities. Shorter throats make it easier.

Me: The higher velocity of a shorter throat is achieved by the higher pressure it generates.
A longer throat lets off pressure, in effect increasing "effective" case capacity as another way of looking at it.
Thus, by using a faster burn rate of powder in the same charge weight, or greater, the longer throat easily allows higher velocity if one wishes to go to the same higher pressure as the short-throated rifle.
Or, that long throat allows one to seat a bullet for longer COL and use increased charges.
With the monometal bullets of 450-gr and greater weight, this allows the longer throated SAAMI .458 WinMag to beat the short and tight-throated SAAMI .458 Lott,
especially if both are allowed 3.6" COL and the 62,500 psi MAP of the SAAMI .458 Lott,
Instead of the 3.34" COL and 60,000 psi MAP of the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum.

Saint Finn Aagaard first taught me about loading a .458 WinMag to 3.6" with a 500-gr bullet to deliver 2250 fps for starters, probably in his 22" Post-'64 M70. That was in a 1984 NRA pub.
Finn was not an exuberant handloader, just safe and practical.

Assuming .450-bore/.458 groove SAAMI minimum rifling, and a bullet diameter of .458",
and a maximum brass length of 2.500"
the free-travel from case mouth to start of rifling in a SAAMI minimum chamber spec is 0.6725".
Similarly, for a SAAMI .458 Lott with 2.800" maximum brass, the same measure is 0.2143".

Saint Finn's three ".458 WM" rifles in the table shown above had free-travels measured by Saint Finn like so:
A. Pre-'64 M70 25" barrel: 0.71"
B. Post-'64 M70 22" barrel: 0.89"
C. Westley Richards M98 .425 WR custom re-barreled: 0.13"

Rifles A and B exceed the minimum, B by quite a lot, A by just a little, both still considered in spec, both satisfy the minimum.
They may have had throats eroded by lots of use, but they are still bona fide chambers, even if they started life a little sloppy from the factory.
Rifle C is in no way a SAAMI .458 WinMag, violates the minimum from the get-go.
May have had a short "no-throat" like most Nitro Express chambers and eroded some throat into it with use ?
Rifle C should be called a ".458 Winchester Special."
It was safe with factory loads of the day, probably turned the 50,000 psi ammo into 60,000 psi in that rifle.

HH: The Winchester Model 70 has a long throat which makes it difficult to achieve above 2090 FPS with most .458 Winchester Magnum ammunition. The 22" barrels of the post '64 Model 70 rifles only made matters worse.

Me: BALONEY.

HH: The best rifles ever made for the .458 Winchester Magnum, were:
A) The Mannlicher Schoenauer (only 77 made in this caliber)
B) The BSA Majestic (only 257 made in this caliber)

They had very short throats and permitted velocities above 2100 FPS to be easily achieved. In the case of the BSA Majestic, this was impressively accomplished with barrels that were only 20" long (minus those beastly muzzle brakes).

Me: If they had very short throats they were not .458 Winchester Magnums.
They were .458 Winchester Specials, rifles with "special needs" for care in handloading.

HH: Now, the advantage of the long throat in the Winchester Model 70... is that this makes it better for conversions to .458 Lott.

Me: Jack Lott used a .450 Watts Magnum chamber reamer in a SAAMI .458 WinMag rifle to create his first .458 Lott wildcat.
A SAAMI .458 Lott reamer will not clean up the SAAMI .458 WinMag throat,
it leaves the end of the .458 WinMag throat at the end of the .458 Lott chamber neck.
The .458 Lott so produced is a longer throated wildcat, a ".458 Lott Special."
It out-performs the SAAMI .458 Lott.

 

[Riflecrank]

I always crimp my 458, as the cases get minimal resizing and the projectile literally sits on top of the powder column , if I don’t crimp the bullet can fall out if shaken hard/ jostled
Gumpy

You have a problem of some sort if your bullets are that loose,
unless you are doing it on purpose to minimize working the brass.

Yes always crimp the .458 WinMag loads.
Lee Factory Crimp die is a must.
Better ballistic uniformity and any DGR needs crimped ammo for the field.

 

[Grumpy gumpy]

You have a problem of some sort if your bullets are that loose,
unless you are doing it on purpose to minimize working the brass.

Yes always crimp the .458 WinMag loads.
Lee Factory Crimp die is a must.
Better ballistic uniformity and any DGR needs crimped ammo for the field.

I thought I explained that with the minimal resizing comment?
I run the cases in just far enough to make sure they feed in reliably each time and to minimise working the brass, I also anneal each time, it also allows a couple of grains more powder space by not squeezing the beejesus out of the case which is what a lot of people say you have to do for when you’re hanging upside down from a tree being charged by a rampaging rabbit intent on head butting you
Gumpy

 

[Riflecrank]

OK for plinking brass you want to last forever, Grumpy gumpy.
I get it.

Funny that some of the bad press from afield about the early .458 WinMag was about
bullets so loose in the case that you could spin them with your pinky finger.
I doubt that was done on purpose at the factory.

Or bullets that were glued into the case necks.
That "might" have been done on purpose, of course, when the machinery was out of spec and
the new brass was not sized properly and "factory crimped."

No excuse for any of that nowadays,
unless you just want your plinking brass to last forever.