BC Outfitter Stole? my Deposit. Any Ideas?

[Ontario Hunter]

@Ontario Hunter - the Question was about “HUNTING Wolverine” and based on your recommendation “find a trapper being raided” you know Nothing about Hunting Wolverine….few people do, I certainly don’t, but most admit they Know Nothing…. You grew up in Montana? Saw one? Friend was a Trapper? Funny.
It would be easier to find a Wolverine in Walmart then following your advice. But now, I’m being harsh and over stating the obvious. You can spin a yarn about whatever - it adds to the diversity of the Forum

Hank, read the other responses. No different than mine. And these guys also live in the far north. You're the one that knows nothing about wolverine. Don't assume the rest of us are as ignorant.

 

[HankBuck]

Hank, read the other responses. No different than mine. And these guys also live in the far north. You're the one that knows nothing about wolverine. Don't assume the rest of us are as ignorant.

@Ontario Hunter - that’s the first post you’ve made that was accurate “I know Nothing about Wolverine Hunting”….now would You join me in some rare honesty about Your own complete lack of knowledge on Wolverine hunting ? You hide the few thing you do know under an ocean of bragging. You could make occasional contributions and have credibility, just narrow down your field of claimed expertise to 100 or so topics.

 

[HankBuck]

As a (now non-practicing) Canadian lawyer, I can tell you the law is relatively clear. An allegation of criminal conduct that is untrue is prima facie defamatory. Unless you can point to an exception, a person making such an allegation, if untrue, would be liable for damages - and in many cases, especially when the reputation of a business is involved, damages will be assumed (without having to be actually proved). Proving damages can bump the quantum up substantially of course.

Having said that, in reading the OP’s initial post, I see no allegation of criminal conduct - those allegations came later, from other posters.

I’ve been a member of this forum for many years now and it’s interesting, at least to me, that so many people are ready to assume the worst in any given situation, based on so little. As I noted, the OP didn’t allege any criminal conduct - only that he’d made a deposit and was unable to contact the outfitter after many tries. And from that we got suggestions to sue, to get the police involved, to get the outfitters’ association involved, etc! Wow!

There are, of course, those who pointed out that there was as yet no crime committed here, and the facts disclosed didn’t even rise to the foundation for a civil claim. Good for them.

@Hank2211 - is “reasonable” a word heavily applied in Canadian Law? I’m Not an attorney and No legal knowledge. I think that Canada and the United Kingdom have laws that are much more protective of its citizens from slander and unsubstantiated accusations. In the U.S. so much falls under “Free Speech” and false accusations can often be made without consequence because it is more difficult to prove “liable”. Then sometimes even when the accusation is determined to be false - difficult to prove it did any quantifiable damage. The term “reasonable” is also often used - was the persons actions “reasonable” under the circumstances etc..
You bring up an interesting point in that the laws of the Country will heavily influence what can be said and what possible consequences may result.
Lastly, regardless of what is legally possible —- what is the most likely or common legal outcome?

 

[sureshot375]

Glad it all worked out.

I’m actually going to add them to the outfitters to check out for a goat hunt!!

 

[Hank2211]

@Hank2211 - is “reasonable” a word heavily applied in Canadian Law? I’m Not an attorney and No legal knowledge. I think that Canada and the United Kingdom have laws that are much more protective of its citizens from slander and unsubstantiated accusations. In the U.S. so much falls under “Free Speech” and false accusations can often be made without consequence because it is more difficult to prove “liable”. Then sometimes even when the accusation is determined to be false - difficult to prove it did any quantifiable damage. The term “reasonable” is also often used - was the persons actions “reasonable” under the circumstances etc..
You bring up an interesting point in that the laws of the Country will heavily influence what can be said and what possible consequences may result.
Lastly, regardless of what is legally possible —- what is the most likely or common legal outcome?

“Reasonable” is a word that is commonly used in the common law (the “reasonable man test”, or “reasonable efforts” in contract law, for example).

I believe you are right that Canada and the UK are more favorable to plaintiffs in cases of defamation than the US, particularly where famous people are involved, but I’m not qualified to practice in the US (though I am in England!), so I can’t say that with any certainty.

Not sure what you mean about the most likely legal outcome - here or generally? In this case, I would say there was no defamation, at least not by the OP (and unlikely by anyone else). Generally, defamation cases aren’t very common, since they have strict procedural requirements which, if not followed, will doom your case. They’re also difficult to prosecute (civilly) without a lawyer - and this is an arcane area of the law with a small number of layers with any experience in it - and as we all know, lawyers are (very) expensive, so unless there’s a great deal of money involved, or a famous reputation, most people will move on.

All of this is subject to the health warning that I left the practice some long time ago to go into oil and gas!

 

[HankBuck]

“Reasonable” is a word that is commonly used in the common law (the “reasonable man test”, or “reasonable efforts” in contract law, for example).

I believe you are right that Canada and the UK are more favorable to plaintiffs in cases of defamation than the US, particularly where famous people are involved, but I’m not qualified to practice in the US (though I am in England!), so I can’t say that with any certainty.

Not sure what you mean about the most likely legal outcome - here or generally? In this case, I would say there was no defamation, at least not by the OP (and unlikely by anyone else). Generally, defamation cases aren’t very common, since they have strict procedural requirements which, if not followed, will doom your case. They’re also difficult to prosecute (civilly) without a lawyer - and this is an arcane area of the law with a small number of layers with any experience in it - and as we all know, lawyers are (very) expensive, so unless there’s a great deal of money involved, or a famous reputation, most people will move on.

All of this is subject to the health warning that I left the practice some long time ago to go into oil and gas!

@Hank2211: Thank you for the legal insight you shared - it’s interesting. Maybe we should all return to how disputes around “insults” were settled in the early 1800s — a DUEL with the offended party challenging the “offender” and allowing them choice-of-weapons. People seemed to be more civil then and careful about what they said to someone or about someone — there was a “consequence” for words…..although the violence was extreme and a “Might makes Right” approach is always wrong…— people conducted themselves with some verbal restraint.

 

[Philip Glass]

He already got his deposit returned with an apology ... after he emailed a link to this thread to the outfitter.

Post in thread 'BC Outfitter Stole? my Deposit. Any Ideas?' https://www.africahunting.com/threads/bc-outfitter-stole-my-deposit-any-ideas.84787/post-1279748

Pretty quick.

 

[kyaria583]

I am hoping that someone on this forum may be an outfitter and have some idea beyond what I have already thought of or may be a Canadian citizen that can point me toward some Government entity that can help. I have booked and taken dozens of guided hunts in my lifetime without ever having any issues of this nature before. This problem has me stumped. In December of 2023 I contacted Fire Mountain Outfitters in BC about a Wolverine hunt. We agreed on a winter 2025 date. He sent me a contract and I sent him a $1000.00 deposit to secure the hunt. Almost four months later in March I emailed him to ask a question and I got no reply. Not wanting to be a bother I let it go. I waited maybe 4-6 weeks then emailed again and once again I got no reply. After another couple weeks I tried calling and got no return phone call. I have now sent five emails with the last one asking for my deposit to be returned with no replies at all. I reached out to another BC outfitter that I have hunted with to see if maybe the guy died or went out of business and he stated that he was not aware of anything like that. I have come across this many times. Life has taught me that you can't trust anyone until you are absolutely sure. I had the same thing with gambling. I read a lot about the lemon casino at https://pl.bestcasinos-pl.com/kasyno/lemon/ and learned a lot about it. As a result, I am now 100 percent sure of it. This should be done constantly, in our world there is no other way. It seems that Fire Mountain took my deposit, maybe changed his mind about the hunt and has no intention of returning it. Any ideas?

I never give anyone money in advance. It's a bad habit.

 

[375Fox]

I never give anyone money in advance. It's a bad habit.

Then I have no idea how you book hunts. Putting deposits down is a standard practice especially if you want the best dates in best areas and need to book time off work in advance. Waiting for cancellation hunts is a risk hoping you’ll get what you want.

 

[Mekaniks]

I never give anyone money in advance. It's a bad habit.

If you have another way of securing a hunt without a deposit I would love to hear it. Always like to learn something new

 

[375Fox]

If you have another way of securing a hunt without a deposit I would love to hear it. Always like to learn something new

I’ll be interested to hear their explanation. However, I predict they will be posting a classified ad in the near future. Their other posts follow a certain pattern.

 

[Mekaniks]

I’ll be interested to hear their explanation. However, I predict they will be posting a classified ad in the near future. Their other posts follow a certain pattern.

Yes sir

 

[Red Leg]

@Hank2211: Thank you for the legal insight you shared - it’s interesting. Maybe we should all return to how disputes around “insults” were settled in the early 1800s — a DUEL with the offended party challenging the “offender” and allowing them choice-of-weapons. People seemed to be more civil then and careful about what they said to someone or about someone — there was a “consequence” for words…..although the violence was extreme and a “Might makes Right” approach is always wrong…— people conducted themselves with some verbal restraint.

It is worth noting though dueling societies were inherently dangerous, they also were extraordinarily polite.

 

[HankBuck]

I never give anyone money in advance. It's a bad habit.

@kyaria583 - that works only if you NEVER book any hunts or NEVER have any substantial work done on your house etc…But it’s a helpful strategy for those that DO NOTHING

 

[Tgood1]

No shit. I'm patiently waiting for the punchline here

 

[JimP]

No shit. I'm patiently waiting for the punchline here

If you notice they have zero hunt reports and all of their 11 replies are just generic replies to get that post count up.