Barnes bullet failures?

[Velo Dog]

Velo Dog,,We just finished a great hunt with Khomas..Wife and I took 15 animals of all types with Swift A-Frames..Fantastic bullet as all were put down with first shot.....She killed a large giraffe with one shot from a 30/06....

Hi ack,

Of course I’m very happy to learn that you and your wife experienced a great Safari with Philip and the crew, up at Khomas Highland.
Hopefully they served “guinea fowl schnitzel” at least once, while you were there (one of my favorite dishes up there).

The Swift A-Frame bullet is my favorite bonded/premium soft point.
Today there are quite a few premium grade bullets on the market but, the A-Frame is so reliable that, I’m not very interested in messing around with any of the others any more.
“If it works, don’t fix it”.

I applaud your wife for her choice in calibers and especially for her straight shooting.
Likewise, I applaud you as well for your straight shooting.

Best Regards,
Paul / Velo Dog

 

[Tally-Ho HUNTING SAFARIS]

hi there

i/we use barnes on nearly all our calibers both for plains game and dangerous game, great penetration every time
sure i have had a few(very few) that didnt open up perfectly but killed the animals none the less
we use around 1000-1500 every year
its great bullet!!!!

 

[ack]

Hi ack,

Of course I’m very happy to learn that you and your wife experienced a great Safari with Philip and the crew, up at Khomas Highland.
Hopefully they served “guinea fowl schnitzel” at least once, while you were there (one of my favorite dishes up there).

The Swift A-Frame bullet is my favorite bonded/premium soft point.
Today there are quite a few premium grade bullets on the market but, the A-Frame is so reliable that, I’m not very interested in messing around with any of the others any more.
“If it works, don’t fix it”.

I applaud your wife for her choice in calibers and especially for her straight shooting.
Likewise, I applaud you as well for your straight shooting.

Best Regards,
Paul / Velo Dog

He was as you said..Nice fellow and honest..Adab and Eric were great to hunt with...Friendly and they know their stuff...

 

[njc110381]

hi there

i/we use barnes on nearly all our calibers both for plains game and dangerous game, great penetration every time
sure i have had a few(very few) that didnt open up perfectly but killed the animals none the less
we use around 1000-1500 every year
its great bullet!!!!

See that's the sort of report that gives confidence in a bullet. A lot of us go out and shoot a few animals and have either good or bad experiences, then go on to report our thoughts based upon that. If it's one hunt then that could just be one shot fired and if that bullet happens to be a one in a thousand bad one, we think they're awful because it's all we know. I'm guilty of that myself when it comes to the .243 Winchester for deer. I absolutely hate it, but truth be told I've shot maybe ten deer with one. It's the most popular deer calibre in the UK and I refuse to use one!

Thanks for your feedback. It's really great when someone with that amount of real world experience shares their thoughts. You've reached a point where you're in a position to give a really accurate account of how a bullet performs. Not an opinion, but a fairly factual report based upon many, many hunts.

 

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

Apologies for the late reply, but I will give you the reason why I feel there are better tools for Buffalo than TSX/TTSX. Firstly, I have to state that it is in no way a reference to dependability of the TSX/TTSX argument. There is no doubt that Barnes are one of the leading bullet manufacturers in the world, and the TSX and TTSX has proven themselves many times over.
Will they kill a Buffalo, absolutely. Do I think there are better tools for the job, yes. My opinion is simply based on my experiences and not the law as far as hunting Cape Buffalo is concerned.

I have guided many, many hunters onto Cape Buffalo, and I am sure there are a few PH's here that have guided more Buffalo than I have, but I will give you my personal experience. I have guided hunters taking Buffalo with rifles ranging from .375 to .505 Gibbs and everything in between.
Not one of these rifles, loaded with premium softs, had pass throughs. We actually shoot Buff(Bulls) in groups, quite regularly, and continue to do so, loaded with a conventional soft. Can I do this confidently with a rifle loaded with a TSX/TTSX? Not a chance. ( I am only referring to Buffalo Bulls)
Last year, proved my point exactly, taking a Buffalo standing broadside, loaded with Barnes TSX in .375H&H, with a complete pass through, after breaking the near shoulder. Did the bullet open, or not? I don't know. Does it matter? Barnes are made to penetrate, and out penetrate conventional softs at that, whether they open or not. Barnes' whole selling point is focussed on penetration.
There were other Buff around, with quite thick vegetation all around our target bull. How can we be sure there was not an unseen Buff 5 or 10 yards behind the bull that we shot? We don't, and we still don't know that for sure.
Like I said. TSX/TTSX has its place, it's horses for courses, but you better put your bullet in the correct place, because body trauma is not their virtue. If I'm paying for an animal as soon as it's wounded from a poor shot, I would rather want as much body trauma as possible, with plenty of coagulated blood giving me the best chance at recovery.
If I'm not mistaken, I think the legendary John Sharp shares the same sentiment regarding the TSX on Buffalo. Maybe @tarbe can chime in, since he hunted with John recently.

Take Care,
Marius Goosen

 

[JPbowhunter]

Apologies for the late reply, but I will give you the reason why I feel there are better tools for Buffalo than TSX/TTSX. Firstly, I have to state that it is in no way a reference to dependability of the TSX/TTSX argument. There is no doubt that Barnes are one of the leading bullet manufacturers in the world, and the TSX and TTSX has proven themselves many times over.
Will they kill a Buffalo, absolutely. Do I think there are better tools for the job, yes. My opinion is simply based on my experiences and not the law as far as hunting Cape Buffalo is concerned.

I have guided many, many hunters onto Cape Buffalo, and I am sure there are a few PH's here that have guided more Buffalo than I have, but I will give you my personal experience. I have guided hunters taking Buffalo with rifles ranging from .375 to .505 Gibbs and everything in between.
Not one of these rifles, loaded with premium softs, had pass throughs. We actually shoot Buff(Bulls) in groups, quite regularly, and continue to do so, loaded with a conventional soft. Can I do this confidently with a rifle loaded with a TSX/TTSX? Not a chance. ( I am only referring to Buffalo Bulls)
Last year, proved my point exactly, taking a Buffalo standing broadside, loaded with Barnes TSX in .375H&H, with a complete pass through, after breaking the near shoulder. Did the bullet open, or not? I don't know. Does it matter? Barnes are made to penetrate, and out penetrate conventional softs at that, whether they open or not. Barnes' whole selling point is focussed on penetration.
There were other Buff around, with quite thick vegetation all around our target bull. How can we be sure there was not an unseen Buff 5 or 10 yards behind the bull that we shot? We don't, and we still don't know that for sure.
Like I said. TSX/TTSX has its place, it's horses for courses, but you better put your bullet in the correct place, because body trauma is not their virtue. If I'm paying for an animal as soon as it's wounded from a poor shot, I would rather want as much body trauma as possible, with plenty of coagulated blood giving me the best chance at recovery.
If I'm not mistaken, I think the legendary John Sharp shares the same sentiment regarding the TSX on Buffalo. Maybe @tarbe can chime in, since he hunted with John recently.

Take Care,
Marius Goosen

My understanding was that Barnes is incredibly good at energy transfer.

What do you think of the Woodleigh Hydro's? Tossing up between 250gn ttsx (which I already have) and 286gn hydro's through my 9.3 next year hunting water buffalo. The guy I'll be hunting with has shot over 100 buff with barnes and thinks they're great buff medicine but I appreciate all different opinions.

 

[njc110381]

I have to admit I hadn't considered over penetration at all. In the UK we are trained to not shoot at deer in a herd situation. They have to step clear before a shot is taken. I've slipped up and shot two roe with one shot with my .338 Win Mag in the past - it was far from an ideal situation but luckily both dropped on the spot. Shooting animals in a crowded herd is seriously frowned upon here as a pass through is inevitable considering the size of our deer.

 

[tarbe]

If I'm not mistaken, I think the legendary John Sharp shares the same sentiment regarding the TSX on Buffalo. Maybe @tarbe can chime in, since he hunted with John recently.

Take Care,
Marius Goosen

Marius

You are most definitely not mistaken.

John does not like the idea of using monometal bullets on dangerous herd animals, period.

John is an A-Frame junkie. He is most happy when his clients use A-Frames. He does not want pass-throughs.


Tim

 

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

In the UK we are trained to not shoot at deer in a herd situation. They have to step clear before a shot is taken.
Shooting animals in a crowded herd is seriously frowned upon here as a pass through is inevitable considering the size of our deer.

In Africa, the same rules apply to plains game, as you have pass throughs on most animals, but Buffalo aren't deer now, are they?
That is why I highlighted the fact that I have taken them with most calibers with the same result, with no pass throughs using conventional softs.
This year, one of my hunters shot a beautiful buffalo bull, using his 375 loaded with TSX. He knows perfectly well how I feel about them. The bull was quartering on. After the shot, the rest of the bachelor herd took off and stood 100 yds or so looking back, while the wounded bull slowly moved to join them. From our position, we had to relocate around brush to see the bull again from the other side, by which time the wounded bull had joined with the others in close proximity to him.
We could not shoot a follow up shot for probably a good 1.5minutes, since there were other Buff behind our target bull.
What if that bull was not hit as well as it was, and he decided to walk, being shadowed by the others all the way into thickets, without giving us the opportunity to safely shoot a follow up shot? I explained this to my hunter, and not sure if it hit home or not, since he wounded a Buffalo with me 2 years earlier.
With a conventional soft, there we have been no concerns of a pass through on a Buffalo bull. (you do get pass throughs on cows)

 

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

Marius

You are most definitely not mistaken.

John does not like the idea of using monometal bullets on dangerous herd animals, period.

John is an A-Frame junkie. He is most happy when his clients use A-Frames. He does not want pass-throughs.


Tim

Thank you for chiming in, Tim.
I don't think that you can get better than Swift A Frames.
I am just amazed, every time we pull one from a Buff.

 

[njc110381]

In Africa, the same rules apply to plains game, as you have pass throughs on most animals, but Buffalo aren't deer now, are they?
That is why I highlighted the fact that I have taken them with most calibers with the same result, with no pass throughs using conventional softs.
This year, one of my hunters shot a beautiful buffalo bull, using his 375 loaded with TSX. He knows perfectly well how I feel about them. The bull was quartering on. After the shot, the rest of the bachelor herd took off and stood 100 yds or so looking back, while the wounded bull slowly moved to join them. From our position, we had to relocate around brush to see the bull again from the other side, by which time the wounded bull had joined with the others in close proximity to him.
We could not shoot a follow up shot for probably a good 1.5minutes, since there were other Buff behind our target bull.
What if that bull was not hit as well as it was, and he decided to walk, being shadowed by the others all the way into thickets, without giving us the opportunity to safely shoot a follow up shot? I explained this to my hunter, and not sure if it hit home or not, since he wounded a Buffalo with me 2 years earlier.
With a conventional soft, there we have been no concerns of a pass through on a Buffalo bull. (you do get pass throughs on cows)
View attachment 311921

That makes sense. I guess deer are pretty much guaranteed to go down with a well placed first shot so that's less of an issue.

 

[fourfive8]

Pretty tall order for a bullet. Penetrate tough hide, bone and tissue from any angle, penetrate in a straight line, do significant soft tissue damage to vital organs when encountered along track, BUT not penetrate too deeply if those conditions/paths/angles change. hmmm?

Good luck in designing, describing, finding and promoting that magic bullet. An anecdote of success is easily erased by an anecdote of failure

 

[WAB]

LOL, when you put it like that... IMO the A-Frame comes the closest but there is no perfect bullet.

 

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

Pretty tall order for a bullet. Penetrate tough hide, bone and tissue from any angle, penetrate in a straight line, do significant soft tissue damage to vital organs when encountered along track, BUT not penetrate too deeply if those conditions/paths/angles change. hmmm?

Good luck in designing, describing, finding and promoting that magic bullet. An anecdote of success is easily erased by an anecdote of failure

No, but that is exactly what the PH's job is. Putting his hunter in a position to make a good shot, which takes most risk out of the situation. The bullet is the last thing you should be worrying about. No magic bullet needed.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Pretty tall order for a bullet. Penetrate tough hide, bone and tissue from any angle, penetrate in a straight line, do significant soft tissue damage to vital organs when encountered along track, BUT not penetrate too deeply if those conditions/paths/angles change. hmmm?

Good luck in designing, describing, finding and promoting that magic bullet. An anecdote of success is easily erased by an anecdote of failure

From a fair amount of experience with North Fork softs and much more limited A-Frames, this kind of happens. @IvW mentioned the trampoline effect somewhere recently. And this is what I attribute to why the NF's and A-Frames will fail to exit but are found underneath the off-side hide. That nice perfect mushroom hits that very flexible skin which can also pull away from the body. And just like a human jumping on a trampoline, the bullet doesn't go through but snaps back against the body of the animal.

The TSX I believe is more likely to pass through if it holds it's petals. The spinning of the bullet combined with those petals allows the bullet to kind of cut/drill through the hide.

Personally I'd never depend on a bullet to not pass through an animal and hit another that I can see is behind the targeted animal. You have to wait for the non-targeted animal to clear away.

 

[tarbe]

You have to wait for the non-targeted animal to clear away.

Assuming you actually see the non-target. Sometimes you don't, despite all reasonable precaution.

Everything in life is a compromise based on incomplete information.

Dang!

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Assuming you actually see the non-target. Sometimes you don't, despite all reasonable precaution.

Everything in life is a compromise based on incomplete information.

Dang!

No doubt.

 

[tarbe]

No doubt.

550gr Woody.....ahem!

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

550gr Woody.....ahem!

Hopefully the sale of North Fork goes through to that Swedish company and we'll have those available again. If not, it'll be A-Frames for me. I just don't care to have to tinker so much with the velocity like the Woody's seem to require.

 

[Peter Larsson]

Shot a moose cow yesterday with 150gr TTSX in 7mm RM.
Both bullets were found in the skin of the opposite side backwards.
One have pierced the skin and had the bottom of the bullet sticking out.
Weight was near 100%.
Don't know if it should be called a failure but it looked strange!
First time I have found these bullets in an animal.