Barnes 416 TSX 350gr Bullet For Buffalo

[CAustin]

Toby I have only taken one Buffalo to date and it was with 400 grain bullets! I'm no expert at all just my singular experience.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

In the heavier weight bullets, do you find the 450 grain is better than the 400 as far as buffalo are concerned?

I'll let @lvW answer your question. But one thing to keep in mind with those heavier bullets is stabilization. Of course the only way to find out if your rifle will push them fast enough to stabilize is to in fact shoot them.

The North Fork bonded cores max weight is 430gr in .416 if I'm not mistaken. If you were shooting a .416Rigby with it's cavernous case I'd have no concern, but the Remington and Ruger versions don't have that. So with that long bullet, you might have an issue, but again only one way to find out.

I may be mistaken but I think the A-Frames only go up to 400gr, at least that's what I saw on their website.

 

[Shootist43]

Toby458, Do an AH search on Gert Odendaal. Several months ago he attended a class put on by Dr. Keven "Doctari" Robertson (the guy that wrote the "Perfect Shot" books for African Game. The class was on Buffalo Hunting. The bullet recommended by the good Dr. was 450 Gr in deference to the 400 Gr. Gert did an excellent job of condensing Dr. Robertson's class into a lengthy post. Well worth the reading, I recommend it very highly. It's articles like the one Gert wrote that really make AH stand out.

 

[IvW]

In the heavier weight bullets, do you find the 450 grain is better than the 400 as far as buffalo are concerned?

400 to 430 gr bullets perform much better than lighter bullets.

The 450 gr weight mentioned are not freely available in 416 caliber but rather in 404 Jeff.

A 400gr .416 caliber bullet has the exceptional SD of .330 which is part of the reason it has been so successful in Africa on DG. Therefore 400-430 gr bullets would be the best choice.

As mentioned by others above when loading the heavier for caliber bullets(more than 400gr in .416) the Rigby is the best platform for this, due to ample case capacity and the ability to keep pressures low.

Controlled expansion, forward weighted bullets are the way to go. These include Rhino solid shank, Trophy bonded bear claws, North Fork and Swift A-frame.
Woodleighs are not controlled expansion bullets.

Weights for these range from 400 gr to 430 gr bullets. Rhino made a 450 at some stage but then backed the weight off to 430 gr.

450gr bullets are the prefered weight in .404 Jeff as they have a bigger diameter than .416.

When hunting DG, especially Cape Buffalo the more bullet you have to work with the better they perform (weight retention, expansion, straight line penetration). Ideal killing speed is 2200-2400 fps.

Here is my post from the other thread regarding, which was about the 404 Jeff and why I do not like Barnes X or Woodleigh bullets for DG hunting, especially Cape Buffalo:

Here is the link to the entire thread which you may find interesting.

https://www.africahunting.com/threads/what-bullet-for-my-404-jeffery.39935/

To start with I am an old school hunter and have always been an advocate of heavy for caliber bullets irrespective of caliber used. They just perform better. They stay on course better(through brush and after hitting the buff), they penetrate better, they expand to a bigger diameter after impact as there is more bullet to do so). Typically 2.5 x diameter with the Rhino bullet.

You typically get two thoughts on this. Lighter higher velocity bullets and then slower heavy bullets at reasonable velocity(2200-2400 fps).

Firstly I would only recommend clients to use premium grade soft/controlled expansion bullets and no solids on buffalo.

I also prefer non monometal softs and also do not like the new "fragmenting" types.

Availability of bullets will obviously be an issue as all bullets are not available in all countries.

My recommendation in order of preference for bolt actions would be:

Rhino controlled expansion soft, Trophy Bonded Bear Claw, North Fork or Swift A-frame.

Bullet weights:

375 H&H-Min 300gr @ 2400 fps better 350gr @ 2300 fps or even the 380gr @ 2200 if it stabilizes and you have no pressure signs in your rifle.

416 Rigby- 400gr @ 2400, better 450gr @ 2250-2300 fps.

404 Jeff- min 400gr @ 2300, better 450gr @ 2200-2300 fps.

458-min 500gr @ 2300, better 550gr @ 2200-2300 fps. (Have to add here that I do not like the 458 Win and also not the other 458 calibers that have straight wall cases and belts). In this group I only like the 450 Rigby or the 458 Sabi.

505 Gibbs- 550-600grn @ 2300 fps.

500 JEFF- 570 grn @ 2350 fps-this is what I use for hard skin DG hunting.

Double rifles:

If your double regulates and is safe to shoot with above mentioned bullets I would go with the same. They rarely do and the best bullet to use in a double would be a Woodleigh bonded one.

The lower velocities of the big NE cartridges compliment the softer design of the Woodleigh very well and they therefore perform as designed @ these lower velocities.

Let me elaborate on why Barnes TSX would not be my first choice (for DG) hunting.

Many speak highly of the Barnes TSX and as seen here many report good results with them over a large range of calibers and species hunted. Yes they work and they work better at higher velocities on softer game. They do not work so well on hard skinned game at slower velocities.

Issues and below par performance I have seen or experienced with them are:

1. Being of monometal design they are typically longer than conventional/lead containing bullets of the same weight. This is fine if you use a rifle and caliber with a long enough magazine and action. Bullets can then be seated forward to not reduce case capacity and keep pressures down. This problem is compounded when using them in Magnum cartridges built on standard length actions. High pressures are the main cause of stuck cases/rifle jams while hunting in higher temperature areas.

2. Monometal bullets cause more friction in the barrel and also create more pressure than conventional bullets. Moly Coating helps but TSX are not coated.

3. Monometal bullets(especially copper cause more fouling in the barrel again increasing operating pressures.

4. They are spitzer shape with a slight boat tail, great for long range shooting but not great for close up work in heavy cover. Spitzer designs deflect much easier than more conventional designs. All shots taken will not always be "the perfect shot".

5. The spitzer shape is more prone to deflecting and veering off course after hitting the target.

6. The overall design is of rear weight design(the back is heavier than the front). If the bullet only partially expands(seen this on a few occasions), the rear being heavier and carrying more momentum than the front of the bullet wants to overtake the front and the bullet has no option but to tumble. This severely affects the bullet performance and straight line penetration.

7. Unreliable expansion. They often do not expand or do not expand properly. This again severely affects the performance of the bullet. If it does not expand it tends to over penetrate and exit which can lead to problems if you wound another buff behind the one being shot at.

8. I know the main animal discussed is buff but they are too soft for some applications and too hard for others. They are too hard for cats and too soft when hitting hard shoulder bones eg. shoulder on buff. This again causes either insufficient expansion(vital when hunting cats) or they loose petals when encountering hard bone which defeats the object. I need a soft to punch through, retain the petals and destroy the vitals behind the heavy bone and then settle under the skin on the opposite side.

9. A proper expanding bullet will typically expand to 2.5 x diameter and retain it's petals. The monometal expanders do not achieve this, if they expand as designed you are lucky to get 2 x expansion, most times much less.

For DG back-up you need a bullet that will perform as designed every time you need it to, the ones I have mentioned do so and the one that has been most consistent and devastating for me has been the Rhino.

 

[Shootist43]

IvW, Thanks again, your experience and logical presentation of same leaves little doubt over which bullet weight and or bullet design performs best on Buffalo.

 

[TOBY458]

Thanks for the lengthy response IvW. A lot of great info here. The only truly heavy game experience I have had is 4 Water Buffalo in Australia, and a Bison in USA. Three of the water buffalo were large body bulls and were taken with Barnes 300 gr 375 bullets @2450fps. They did a great job and penetrated to the far side under the hide in broadside, shoulder shots. The frontal shots were never recovered. However, as you stated, they only expanded maybe 1.5 x caliber. I've always been a fan of heavy bullets, and that's why I don't like the idea of using anything less than 300gr 375, or 400gr 416 bullets, even in Barnes. But, that doesn't seem to be what's recommended by most users of the Barnes bullets. Thanks again for the great info!

 

[Velo Dog]

400 to 430 gr bullets perform much better than lighter bullets.

The 450 gr weight mentioned are not freely available in 416 caliber but rather in 404 Jeff.

A 400gr .416 caliber bullet has the exceptional SD of .330 which is part of the reason it has been so successful in Africa on DG. Therefore 400-430 gr bullets would be the best choice.

As mentioned by others above when loading the heavier for caliber bullets(more than 400gr in .416) the Rigby is the best platform for this, due to ample case capacity and the ability to keep pressures low.

Controlled expansion, forward weighted bullets are the way to go. These include Rhino solid shank, Trophy bonded bear claws, North Fork and Swift A-frame.
Woodleighs are not controlled expansion bullets.

Weights for these range from 400 gr to 430 gr bullets. Rhino made a 450 at some stage but then backed the weight off to 430 gr.

450gr bullets are the prefered weight in .404 Jeff as they have a bigger diameter than .416.

When hunting DG, especially Cape Buffalo the more bullet you have to work with the better they perform (weight retention, expansion, straight line penetration). Ideal killing speed is 2200-2400 fps.

Here is my post from the other thread regarding, which was about the 404 Jeff and why I do not like Barnes X or Woodleigh bullets for DG hunting, especially Cape Buffalo:

Here is the link to the entire thread which you may find interesting.

https://www.africahunting.com/threads/what-bullet-for-my-404-jeffery.39935/

To start with I am an old school hunter and have always been an advocate of heavy for caliber bullets irrespective of caliber used. They just perform better. They stay on course better(through brush and after hitting the buff), they penetrate better, they expand to a bigger diameter after impact as there is more bullet to do so). Typically 2.5 x diameter with the Rhino bullet.

You typically get two thoughts on this. Lighter higher velocity bullets and then slower heavy bullets at reasonable velocity(2200-2400 fps).

Firstly I would only recommend clients to use premium grade soft/controlled expansion bullets and no solids on buffalo.

I also prefer non monometal softs and also do not like the new "fragmenting" types.

Availability of bullets will obviously be an issue as all bullets are not available in all countries.

My recommendation in order of preference for bolt actions would be:

Rhino controlled expansion soft, Trophy Bonded Bear Claw, North Fork or Swift A-frame.

Bullet weights:

375 H&H-Min 300gr @ 2400 fps better 350gr @ 2300 fps or even the 380gr @ 2200 if it stabilizes and you have no pressure signs in your rifle.

416 Rigby- 400gr @ 2400, better 450gr @ 2250-2300 fps.

404 Jeff- min 400gr @ 2300, better 450gr @ 2200-2300 fps.

458-min 500gr @ 2300, better 550gr @ 2200-2300 fps. (Have to add here that I do not like the 458 Win and also not the other 458 calibers that have straight wall cases and belts). In this group I only like the 450 Rigby or the 458 Sabi.

505 Gibbs- 550-600grn @ 2300 fps.

500 JEFF- 570 grn @ 2350 fps-this is what I use for hard skin DG hunting.

Double rifles:

If your double regulates and is safe to shoot with above mentioned bullets I would go with the same. They rarely do and the best bullet to use in a double would be a Woodleigh bonded one.

The lower velocities of the big NE cartridges compliment the softer design of the Woodleigh very well and they therefore perform as designed @ these lower velocities.

Let me elaborate on why Barnes TSX would not be my first choice (for DG) hunting.

Many speak highly of the Barnes TSX and as seen here many report good results with them over a large range of calibers and species hunted. Yes they work and they work better at higher velocities on softer game. They do not work so well on hard skinned game at slower velocities.

Issues and below par performance I have seen or experienced with them are:

1. Being of monometal design they are typically longer than conventional/lead containing bullets of the same weight. This is fine if you use a rifle and caliber with a long enough magazine and action. Bullets can then be seated forward to not reduce case capacity and keep pressures down. This problem is compounded when using them in Magnum cartridges built on standard length actions. High pressures are the main cause of stuck cases/rifle jams while hunting in higher temperature areas.

2. Monometal bullets cause more friction in the barrel and also create more pressure than conventional bullets. Moly Coating helps but TSX are not coated.

3. Monometal bullets(especially copper cause more fouling in the barrel again increasing operating pressures.

4. They are spitzer shape with a slight boat tail, great for long range shooting but not great for close up work in heavy cover. Spitzer designs deflect much easier than more conventional designs. All shots taken will not always be "the perfect shot".

5. The spitzer shape is more prone to deflecting and veering off course after hitting the target.

6. The overall design is of rear weight design(the back is heavier than the front). If the bullet only partially expands(seen this on a few occasions), the rear being heavier and carrying more momentum than the front of the bullet wants to overtake the front and the bullet has no option but to tumble. This severely affects the bullet performance and straight line penetration.

7. Unreliable expansion. They often do not expand or do not expand properly. This again severely affects the performance of the bullet. If it does not expand it tends to over penetrate and exit which can lead to problems if you wound another buff behind the one being shot at.

8. I know the main animal discussed is buff but they are too soft for some applications and too hard for others. They are too hard for cats and too soft when hitting hard shoulder bones eg. shoulder on buff. This again causes either insufficient expansion(vital when hunting cats) or they loose petals when encountering hard bone which defeats the object. I need a soft to punch through, retain the petals and destroy the vitals behind the heavy bone and then settle under the skin on the opposite side.

9. A proper expanding bullet will typically expand to 2.5 x diameter and retain it's petals. The monometal expanders do not achieve this, if they expand as designed you are lucky to get 2 x expansion, most times much less.

For DG back-up you need a bullet that will perform as designed every time you need it to, the ones I have mentioned do so and the one that has been most consistent and devastating for me has been the Rhino.

What's this?, Bat Fans.
Is it possible that there exists another Hunter on Planet Earth (besides that wrinkled up old Velo Dog person) who, only yawns when Barnes expanding "mono-metal" bullets are mentioned?

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

What's this?, Bat Fans.
Is it possible that there exists another Hunter on Planet Earth (besides that wrinkled up old Velo Dog person) who, only yawns when Barnes expanding "mono-metal" bullets are mentioned?

Well you know maybe two, as I still prefer the lead tipped bullets.

 

[Velo Dog]

Well you know maybe two, as I still prefer the lead tipped bullets.

Three of us ?
Woah daddy.
This looks like revolution, on a global scale.

 

[Buckdog]

Make it 4 of us for lead! Now thats a lead bullet revolt if I ever saw one. What will those mono metalist do??

 

[TOBY458]

Make it 4 of us for lead! Now thats a lead bullet revolt if I ever saw one. What will those mono metalist do??

I think you guys must've eaten too much lead paint as a child! Everybody knows lead is dead, and copper is king!

 

[Ironhorse375]

So many choices. Here is the gamut of rounds available to me and my Ruger RSM in 416 Rigby. First is 410 grain Woodleighs, second 400 grain Barnes bullet and third is 350 grain Barnes bullet.
After listening to the wealth of information from so many with tons of knowledge here I'm narrowing down my choices
Will use the 350 grain bullet for elk and bear this year.
Next May is my buffalo hunt. So 400 grain Barnes then 410 grain Woodleighs.
Or maybe 400 grain Barnes backed up with 410 Woodleighs on buff?
So many choices.. Your thoughts?

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

So many choices. Here is the gamut of rounds available to me and my Ruger RSM in 416 Rigby. First is 410 grain Woodleighs, second 400 grain Barnes bullet and third is 350 grain Barnes bullet.
After listening to the wealth of information from so many with tons of knowledge here I'm narrowing down my choices
Will use the 350 grain bullet for elk and bear this year.
Next May is my buffalo hunt. So 400 grain Barnes then 410 grain Woodleighs.
Or maybe 400 grain Barnes backed up with 410 Woodleighs on buff?
So many choices.. Your thoughts?

It seems the concensus on the Woodleighs is they're a good bullet when kept within their velocity constraints. So if you go that route, be sure you chrono those loads. The Rigby can push a 410gr bullet pretty fast.

The 350's on elk and bear should be devastating.

 

[sheephunterab]

Issues and below par performance I have seen or experienced with them are:

1. Being of monometal design they are typically longer than conventional/lead containing bullets of the same weight. This is fine if you use a rifle and caliber with a long enough magazine and action. Bullets can then be seated forward to not reduce case capacity and keep pressures down. This problem is compounded when using them in Magnum cartridges built on standard length actions. High pressures are the main cause of stuck cases/rifle jams while hunting in higher temperature areas.

2. Monometal bullets cause more friction in the barrel and also create more pressure than conventional bullets. Moly Coating helps but TSX are not coated.

3. Monometal bullets(especially copper cause more fouling in the barrel again increasing operating pressures.

4. They are spitzer shape with a slight boat tail, great for long range shooting but not great for close up work in heavy cover. Spitzer designs deflect much easier than more conventional designs. All shots taken will not always be "the perfect shot".

5. The spitzer shape is more prone to deflecting and veering off course after hitting the target.

6. The overall design is of rear weight design(the back is heavier than the front). If the bullet only partially expands(seen this on a few occasions), the rear being heavier and carrying more momentum than the front of the bullet wants to overtake the front and the bullet has no option but to tumble. This severely affects the bullet performance and straight line penetration.

7. Unreliable expansion. They often do not expand or do not expand properly. This again severely affects the performance of the bullet. If it does not expand it tends to over penetrate and exit which can lead to problems if you wound another buff behind the one being shot at.

8. I know the main animal discussed is buff but they are too soft for some applications and too hard for others. They are too hard for cats and too soft when hitting hard shoulder bones eg. shoulder on buff. This again causes either insufficient expansion(vital when hunting cats) or they loose petals when encountering hard bone which defeats the object. I need a soft to punch through, retain the petals and destroy the vitals behind the heavy bone and then settle under the skin on the opposite side.

9. A proper expanding bullet will typically expand to 2.5 x diameter and retain it's petals. The monometal expanders do not achieve this, if they expand as designed you are lucky to get 2 x expansion, most times much less.

For DG back-up you need a bullet that will perform as designed every time you need it to, the ones I have mentioned do so and the one that has been most consistent and devastating for me has been the Rhino.

A lot of what you say applied to the original X Bullet by Barnes and in truth it was likely launched too early but mono metals have come leaps and bounds since then. To address your concerns:

1) COAL is rarely an issue with mono metals as they perform best well off the lands so bullets are typically seated fairly deep.

2) The grooves have done much to reduce friction. The original X did not have these.

3) Again, the grooves have done much to reduce this. It's rarely as concern.

4) Deflection is voodoo at best. There's no predicting it regardless of bullet shape.

5) I don't understand this at all as once any bullet mushrooms, what happens next is anyone's guess.

6) Tumbling is more more a factor of how the mushroom forms, what the bullet strikes and so on.

7) Again an issue with the X but keep impact velocities at 2,000fps or more and expansion is as reliable as any bullet.

8) I've run mono metals through leopards at 35 yards and buffalo at 80 and they we neither too soft not too hard. Expansion is reliable if impact velocity is sufficient.

9) 2x expansion is very common.

It's unfortunate that Barnes had so many issues with the X bullet as those problems are still attributed to new mono metals despite it not being the case. I'm speaking from the experience of running mono metals through well over 100 animals and seeing likely that many more.

 

[TOBY458]

A lot of what you say applied to the original X Bullet by Barnes and in truth it was likely launched too early but mono metals have come leaps and bounds since then. To address your concerns:

1) COAL is rarely an issue with mono metals as they perform best well off the lands so bullets are typically seated fairly deep.

2) The grooves have done much to reduce friction. The original X did not have these.

3) Again, the grooves have done much to reduce this. It's rarely as concern.

4) Deflection is voodoo at best. There's no predicting it regardless of bullet shape.

5) I don't understand this at all as once any bullet mushrooms, what happens next is anyone's guess.

6) Tumbling is more more a factor of how the mushroom forms, what the bullet strikes and so on.

7) Again an issue with the X but keep impact velocities at 2,000fps or more and expansion is as reliable as any bullet.

8) I've run mono metals through leopards at 35 yards and buffalo at 80 and they we neither too soft not too hard. Expansion is reliable if impact velocity is sufficient.

9) 2x expansion is very common.

It's unfortunate that Barnes had so many issues with the X bullet as those problems are still attributed to new mono metals despite it not being the case. I'm speaking from the experience of running mono metals through well over 100 animals and seeing likely that many more.

Great points! I've had great success with Barnes TSX. I never shot any of the original X bullets to compare them with. I've used them on whitetail deer and Water Buffalo. Same great results. Expansion has always been good, and penetration has been excellent. I only have 3 water buffalo to draw experience from, so I'm definitely no expert on large game. But, I've liked what I've seen so far.

 

[Shawn.54]

The GS Customs bullets with the drive bands causes very little friction in the barrel to the point that 5 quick shots and barrel is cooler than after 2 shots with 300gr cup and core bullets.
I did use the original X bullets and didn’t like them or should I say my rifle didn’t like them.
So I have no opinion of the newer stuff.
Shawn

 

[Shawn.54]

I believe that CEB is a drive band bullet also.
Shawn

 

[Velo Dog]

I think you guys must've eaten too much lead paint as a child! Everybody knows lead is dead, and copper is king!

You are correct.
Even the notoriou anti-hunter, Barry Obama, had signed official papers, proclaiming federal law (however short lived) which, mandated that lead is dead and copper is king.

 

[IvW]

A lot of what you say applied to the original X Bullet by Barnes and in truth it was likely launched too early but mono metals have come leaps and bounds since then. To address your concerns:

1) COAL is rarely an issue with mono metals as they perform best well off the lands so bullets are typically seated fairly deep.

2) The grooves have done much to reduce friction. The original X did not have these.

3) Again, the grooves have done much to reduce this. It's rarely as concern.

4) Deflection is voodoo at best. There's no predicting it regardless of bullet shape.

5) I don't understand this at all as once any bullet mushrooms, what happens next is anyone's guess.

6) Tumbling is more more a factor of how the mushroom forms, what the bullet strikes and so on.

7) Again an issue with the X but keep impact velocities at 2,000fps or more and expansion is as reliable as any bullet.

8) I've run mono metals through leopards at 35 yards and buffalo at 80 and they we neither too soft not too hard. Expansion is reliable if impact velocity is sufficient.

9) 2x expansion is very common.

It's unfortunate that Barnes had so many issues with the X bullet as those problems are still attributed to new mono metals despite it not being the case. I'm speaking from the experience of running mono metals through well over 100 animals and seeing likely that many more.

It is good to have differences of opinion as we all learn from others experiences. As with all things in life each person has their own preferences. As I have mentioned before if they work for you use them but you need to be aware of their limitations and use them accordingly. I am referring here to hunting DG in particular, Cape Buffalo and not PG.

My comparisons are for heavy for calibre bullets of the same weight and between premium bonded soft point bullets and Barnes TSX and not between the old original barnes and the new TSX. Allow me to expand below and try to clarify.

1. Being of monometal design they are typically longer than conventional/lead containing bullets of the same weight. This is fine if you use a rifle and caliber with a long enough magazine and action. Bullets can then be seated forward to not reduce case capacity and keep pressures down. This problem is compounded when using them in Magnum cartridges built on standard length actions. High pressures are the main cause of stuck cases/rifle jams while hunting in higher temperature areas.

1) COAL is rarely an issue with mono metals as they perform best well off the lands so bullets are typically seated fairly deep.

True they do perform better when seated well off the lands. This is exactly where problems arise when using them in Magnum calibres built on standard length actions. Try loading a 458 Win mag with a 500 grn Barnes TSX(bullet length is 1.663 inches) well seated back @ a velocity of 2150 Fps and see where your chamber pressure goes. Then take that combination Cape Buffalo hunting in the Zambezi Valley in October and see what happens. You in effect have a single shot club as the bolt may well not open. I have had this happen 3 times with this combination while hunting with clients.

2. Monometal bullets cause more friction in the barrel and also create more pressure than conventional bullets. Moly Coating helps but TSX are not coated.

2) The grooves have done much to reduce friction. The original X did not have these.

True, only when you compare it to the old original X, when compared to conventional designed premium grade softs they still produce more friction and pressure.

3. Monometal bullets (especially copper) cause more fouling in the barrel again increasing operating pressures.

3) Again, the grooves have done much to reduce this. It's rarely as concern.

They still cause more fouling than conventional bullets irrespective of grooves.

4. They are spitzer shape with a slight boat tail, great for long range shooting but not great for close up work in heavy cover. Spitzer designs deflect much easier than more conventional designs. All shots taken will not always be "the perfect shot".

4) Deflection is voodoo at best. There's no predicting it regardless of bullet shape.

WOW! VOODOO it is definitely not. If this was the case all solid bullets used for hunting elephant would surely by now all have been spitzer shape for sure.

Experienced hunters who hunt DG regularly will most always prefer more parallel sided bullets as well as heavy for calibre ones, not spitzer shaped for this very reason. Regarding bullet shape for solids, meplat mono metal ones get the vote most of the time.

5. The spitzer shape is more prone to deflecting and veering off course after hitting the target.

5) I don't understand this at all as once any bullet mushrooms, what happens next is anyone's guess.

You should understand it as you mention, “once a bullet mushrooms” that is where the problem lies. If they would expand/mushroom every time this issue would not be present. Barnes do not always expand reliably. Sometimes they do not expand at all. In fact, TSX bullets expand better when they initially hit soft tissue rather than hard tissue (buffalo shoulder bones). If you only have partial expansion the bullet veers off to the side which has not expanded. In some cases, we have found this deflection to be as much as 90 degrees! The sharper the bullet ogive the more the deflection. The more parallel sided (old round nose as an example) the less the deflection. Same principle for 70gr Spitzer 5.56mm military ammo, the design, although solid, is spitzer shaped and rear weighted to destabilize (tumble and deflect) once hitting the intended target and maximize damage as expanding bullets are not permitted by NATO.

For conventional soft points, the jacket profile (thickness and taper) and the amount of lead exposed at the tip are the biggest factors in determining how a conventional soft nose bullet will mushroom. Generally, the more lead visible up front, the faster and more complete the mushroom.

For Barnes TSX, a small, pointed hollow nose design is used, but it can also collapse on itself or plug with dirt, preventing hydraulic action on impact. The bullet may then act like a solid. As mentioned above whatever it hits matters as well, soft tissue better expansion(more hydraulic action), hard tissue not so good or no expansion(less hydraulic action).

6. The overall design is of rear weight design (the back is heavier than the front). If the bullet only partially expands (seen this on a few occasions), the rear being heavier and carrying more momentum than the front of the bullet wants to overtake the front and the bullet has no option but to tumble. This severely affects the bullet performance and straight-line penetration.

6) Tumbling is more more a factor of how the mushroom forms, what the bullet strikes and so on.

Main factor of a bullet tumbling is rear weight and not the mushroom. A properly mushroomed bullet does not tumble if it is weight forward design. It cannot as the heaviest part is in front.

Think of it as a loaded Semi trying to make an emergency stop. The weight is in the trailer(rear) and as soon as the brakes are applied excessively(think of it as the bullet hitting the heavy shoulder bone on a buff), the trailer wants to overtake the tractor unit and the whole thing jack-knifes.

7. Unreliable expansion. They often do not expand or do not expand properly. This again severely affects the performance of the bullet. If it does not expand it tends to over penetrate and exit which can lead to problems if you wound another buff behind the one being shot at.

7) Again an issue with the X but keep impact velocities at 2,000fps or more and expansion is as reliable as any bullet.

Unfortunately, not so, they either expand correctly, only partially or not at all. Another poster recently posted two Barnes bullets from a buffalo, one expanded one did not. I cannot find the post now but will post it here when I do.

I need a bullet that will expand every time especially when hunting buffalo, without the need to worry about impact velocity and not being sure if it is or is not going to expand.

8. I know the main animal discussed is buff but they are too soft for some applications and too hard for others. They are too hard for cats and too soft when hitting hard shoulder bones eg. shoulder on buff. This again causes either insufficient expansion(vital when hunting cats) or they loose petals when encountering hard bone which defeats the object. I need a soft to punch through, retain the petals and destroy the vitals behind the heavy bone and then settle under the skin on the opposite side.

8) I've run mono metals through leopards at 35 yards and buffalo at 80 and they we neither too soft not too hard. Expansion is reliable if impact velocity is sufficient.

How many leopards and how many Buffalo if I may ask? How many bullets exited on the buffaloes you shot with broadside shots?

9. A proper expanding bullet will typically expand to 2.5 x diameter and retain its petals. The monometal expanders do not achieve this, if they expand as designed you are lucky to get 2 x expansion, most times much less.

9) 2x expansion is very common.

Yes, IF they actually do expand. Unfortunately, my experience has been that they also do not expand or only partially expand and often loose petals, which is not good enough for my purposes.

If they work for you, by all means use them, they are good bullets, they do however have some shortcomings and I believe there are more reliable performers available.

If you plan on using them on Cape Buffalo, I would advise to make sure there is no buffalo behind the one you intend shooting. The "Perfect shot" is unfortunately not always available.

For me and what I need a bullet to do when hunting DG, especially Cape buffalo, they don't make the grade.

 

[sheephunterab]

IvW...I appreciate your thoughts but the fact is that mono metals reliably expand when used properly...if we can't agree on that basic premise I don't see a point continuing this discussion. Search the internet long enough and you can find examples of all bullets "failing" but there's typically a pretty logical explanation. They expand as reliably as any expanding bullet when used within their performance envelope. And your thoughts on pressure and fouling are based on early model bullets...not the ones we are using today. I've never had a mono metal exit a buffalo but I've sure found lots in the far hide. Have a great day.