Are we cleaning our guns to death?

[steve white]

It all started with inspecting a 100yr old K31 Swiss rifle, kept in an armory until bundled and sold. Wear to the stock apparent, but the bore and rifling absolutely pristine, and little wear to the throats. Reverse engineering how it came down to us after so many years in pristine order revealed consistent use of Waffenfett, to be updated later to Automatenfett. Special greases applied while the gun was still hot and left that way until, A. gun was cleaned if necessary later, (usually by a pull rope) B. Gun was swabbed out just before firing in the future. The grease seemed to not only stop corrosion, but dissolve lots of gunk as it sat. WHAT'S WRONG WITH DOING THAT TODAY?
Not that long ago, even some barrel manufacturers were advising "barrel break-in" protocols of fire one shot, clean to bare steel, fire two shots, etc. etc. Today I don't know anyone doing that anymore, or that believes it helps. We use brushes and strong cleaners, falling for "the latest and greatest."
Only recently, folks over on long range shooting sites have reversed course, saying that they don't even use brushes of any kind at all lately. Further, they feel older guns don't benefit from cleaning all the way to bare metal+pits. That the pits have to be somewhat filled before accuracy returns. Some are filling the pits with HBN, hexagonal boron nitrite.
What's a fellow to do with a brand spanking new rifle, for it to look as good in 100 yrs as the Swiss K31. True, they have barrels with 54 Rockwell hardness, but still.

 

[mark-hunter]

Not that long ago, even some barrel manufacturers were advising "barrel break-in" protocols of fire one shot, clean to bare steel, fire two shots, etc. etc. Today I don't know anyone doing that anymore, or that believes it helps.

New Bergara B14, brand new, user's manual, advises for break-in. That is one example; probably there will be others

My "system":
Match rifle, center fire - break-in to be done (no harm in it)
Regular rifle, for hunting, etc - no need to break in.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

It all started with inspecting a 100yr old K31 Swiss rifle, kept in an armory until bundled and sold. Wear to the stock apparent, but the bore and rifling absolutely pristine, and little wear to the throats. Reverse engineering how it came down to us after so many years in pristine order revealed consistent use of Waffenfett, to be updated later to Automatenfett. Special greases applied while the gun was still hot and left that way until, A. gun was cleaned if necessary later, (usually by a pull rope) B. Gun was swabbed out just before firing in the future. The grease seemed to not only stop corrosion, but dissolve lots of gunk as it sat. WHAT'S WRONG WITH DOING THAT TODAY?
Not that long ago, even some barrel manufacturers were advising "barrel break-in" protocols of fire one shot, clean to bare steel, fire two shots, etc. etc. Today I don't know anyone doing that anymore, or that believes it helps. We use brushes and strong cleaners, falling for "the latest and greatest."
Only recently, folks over on long range shooting sites have reversed course, saying that they don't even use brushes of any kind at all lately. Further, they feel older guns don't benefit from cleaning all the way to bare metal+pits. That the pits have to be somewhat filled before accuracy returns. Some are filling the pits with HBN, hexagonal boron nitrite.
What's a fellow to do with a brand spanking new rifle, for it to look as good in 100 yrs as the Swiss K31. True, they have barrels with 54 Rockwell hardness, but still.

@steve white
More rifles are ruined by over/ inappropriate cleaning than are ruined by shooting them.
The cleaning routine for the old SMLE 303 was simple.
After the shoot pour boiling water down the barrel to neutralize the corrosive salts. The hot water didn't affect the barrel as it dried quickly.
Finish with a patch soaked in 303 oil. Done.

My rifles only ever see nylon brushes. After a shoot/hunt they get a few passes with a dry nylon brush, then a clean patch followed by an oil soaked patch and done. Before a shoot/hunt I just run a dry patch down the bore to remove excess oil. When accuracy starts to fall off it gets a thorough clean.
My Whelen hasn't had bore cleaner in it for over 150 shots and is still what I call clean, no copper. That's why I love CFE 223. Still shoots sub moa.
My sons 308 hasn't seen bore cleaner for a few years and over 300 rounds. Same powder as the Whelen and still shoots sub moa.
I don't believe in barrel break in. To me it's a waste of ammunition. Yes some barrels may improve after a 100 rounds or so but why waste ammo getting there. Sight in and shoot. If groups get bigger clean it and keep shooting.
Normally if a barrel doesn't shoot reasonably well from the start there's a good chance it never will.
There's a plethora of carbon, copper, powder, plastic etc cleaners out there to entice the fastidious cleaner but which is best. Depends on the advertisement budget.
Personally I like to keep it simple.
Shoot
Oil
Swab
Shoot.
If/when accuracy drops off give gun a proper clean, then repeat above.
Just my opinion but works for me and has done for a lot of years.
Bob

 

[HeinSavage]

Any opinions on suppressor pushing carbon back into the barrel? I have a 7-08 that fouls fast when shooting suppressed. After 60 to 80 shots, accuracy starts going. Carbon clean solves the issue. Hence I have a love hate relationship with the suppressor. Feels to me it causes over cleaning.

 

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

Any opinions on suppressor pushing carbon back into the barrel? I have a 7-08 that fouls fast when shooting suppressed. After 60 to 80 shots, accuracy starts going. Carbon clean solves the issue. Hence I have a love hate relationship with the suppressor. Feels to me it causes over cleaning.

Certainly don't have that problem with my rental 300 Win. I would look at swapping out the suppressor for a bit and seeing if that's not where the problem lies? Does your suppressor fit over the barrel or screw onto the end of the barrel?

 

[Creigh]

Probably not apples to apples but every precision shooter I talk to clean down to bare metal after every visit to the range or competition. I do the same on my precision rifle, but I also do the same on my hunting rifles, say every 200 rounds.

 

[Creigh]

Any opinions on suppressor pushing carbon back into the barrel? I have a 7-08 that fouls fast when shooting suppressed. After 60 to 80 shots, accuracy starts going. Carbon clean solves the issue. Hence I have a love hate relationship with the suppressor. Feels to me it causes over cleaning.

I spoke to a suppressor builder at the beginning of this year. He said my Fryer & Devik suppressor was wrong for my .243 because the first chamber wasn't big enough for the caliber and would help burn the barrel even faster than normal. I dismissed him because he was a seriously obnoxious guy and what do Fryer & Devik know about suppressors anyway. But dammit, I haven't used the suppressor since then because maybe he knows something.

Maybe there's something to the back pressure problem.

 

[RedTag]

I’ve seen or heard of so many different processes for breaking in a rifle barrel, but they can’t all be right. I tend to concur that less is more. I see for example that Shilen recommends cleaning after every shot for 5 shots then cleaning after every 5-shot group for 50 shots, and that’s all, which seems pretty basic and reasonable to me.
When it comes to cleaning, I am primarily concerned with inhibiting corrosion, both in storage and in the field. I have come to really appreciate Ballistol, especially in the field, as it does a fantastic job of preventing rust and is useful for basic cleaning. Plus it’s good for wood, leather, rubber, and can be used as an emergency antiseptic. I have an extensive kit of cleaning products on the shelf, and there’s a time and place for each, but most of them have been sitting there for a long time, while the Ballistol gets resupplied most frequently.
I think much of the current shooting sports industry is based around smoke and mirrors. If they keep people second guessing their own instincts and abilities then they will keep them spending money. A lot of production rifles just aren’t very accurate, but it’s easy to convince people that it’s user error and that they must spend all their money on every possible combination of ammunition or cleaning products and regimen.

 

[HeinSavage]

Certainly don't have that problem with my rental 300 Win. I would look at swapping out the suppressor for a bit and seeing if that's not where the problem lies? Does your suppressor fit over the barrel or screw onto the end of the barrel?

It's not a reflex, screws onto the end. Without the suppressor it goes over 100 shots without losing accuracy. Normal clean (Hoppes no 9) does not improve the accuracy, but cleaning carbon till a indicator patch comes out clean does. I do not shoot long strings with it either. A group here and there and then hunting.

 

[pc3]

I read somewhere that more barrels are ruined from over zealous cleaning regimes than shooting them out...I tend to agree and don't clean unless I have to now e.g. got wet etc. I do wipe down with oil post hunting.

 

[skydiver386]

My cleaning methods depend on caliber and barrel quality. Low quality rimmfires are one thing, hand lapped center-fire barrels are another.

The barrel on the left is going to accumulate more fouling than the one on the right, all else being equal. Some rough bores shoot better with some copper or lead fouling that fills in the pits in a barrel like the one on the left, some shoot better when cleaned down to bare steel.

Many hammer forged barrels look this one. The drill used to make the initial hole through the barrel left marks horizontal to the bullet travel, and this will strip bullet jacket material off with every round fired. These barrels are fine for a hunting rifle that will fire one box of ammo per year, but would be totally unacceptable to a Match shooter.

In this barrel, you can see the tool marks in the bottom of the rifling grooves, but smooth on the tops of the lands. Barrels like this will often shoot with excellent accuracy, but that accuracy falls off quickly. These grooves fill with material stripped off the bullet as it travels down the bore, and if not removed by cleaning, will cause corrosion and loss of accuracy.

Any rifle with a hammer forged barrel that isn't lapped between drilling the bore and the hammer forging process is bound to look like this, and will be a pain to clean. Remington and Ruger factory barrels are often the worst.

This is what a quality cut or button rifled and hand lapped barrel should look like. No tool marks or other defects to create fouling problems, and only a few passes with a patch soaked in solvent are needed to get it squeaky clean.

My rimfires are cleaned with patches soaked with Hoppes on a Jag from the breech end if possible. Once clean patches appear I use dry patches, then a final patch with oil. NEVER clean a rimfire with a rod from the muzzle end. A hundred passes with a Bore Snake from the breech end is better than buggering the crown of the muzzle with a cleaning rod. Some rough rimfire barrels require a brush soaked in lead solvent, but these are rare.

Center fire rifles use the same method, but use a mild Copper solvent. No need for brushes, just patches, jag and plenty of patches followed by oil to prevent corrosion while it sits in the gun safe.

One final note. In my experience, if an individual rifle accumulates excessive copper fouling with Barnes X or other Mono metal bullets, it's usually because the bore looks like one of the barrels in the pictures above.

 

[Rare Breed]

I do think people clean their gun bores too much. I only clean my bores with copper solvent if the accuracy starts to decline otherwise no. I do run a swab through after wet weather but that’s all. Of course always wipe down all external parts after every hunt

 

[62flint]

Some manufactures recommend a break in some do not. How much to clean is a ongoing debate. Some long range shooters swear you need to clean every 30-50 shots aome dont clean until accuracy drops off.
I clean when and if accuracy drops or the end of the season before I anticipate a longer storage time. Most of my rifles will require 5-10 shots after cleaning before good accuracy returns. But even then I am talking maybe 1/2 to 1/4 moa improvement after 5 or so shots. THe bigger bores/ older hunting rifles I do not really see much change.
But I absolutly think most people cause more wear from cleaning than shooting.

 

[gbflyer]

Yes we are. The affordable borescope has made it even worse. 99% of us have no idea what we are looking at.

 

[steve white]

I spoke to a suppressor builder at the beginning of this year. He said my Fryer & Devik suppressor was wrong for my .243 because the first chamber wasn't big enough for the caliber and would help burn the barrel even faster than normal. I dismissed him because he was a seriously obnoxious guy and what do Fryer & Devik know about suppressors anyway. But dammit, I haven't used the suppressor since then because maybe he knows something.

Maybe there's something to the back pressure problem.

Nathan Foster warns about it in his books. It's a choice of priorities sometimes.

 

[deewayne2003]

At the very least I will clean a new barrel/rifle before the first firing to take out any packing grease.

I used to clean down to bare metal after ever session, now I give my hunting rifles a good bore brush cleaning before sighting them in/confirming zero then shoot a few fowling rounds down range and call it good for the season.

Couple of exceptions though.....

My .257Wby with 100gr TSX moving at 3,550fps; you could notice the accuracy dropping off after about 30 rounds - This is where I discovered Montana extreme copper solvent.

My .470ne I got this DR used and it's freakishly accurate; noticing copper on the rifling I cleaned it down to bare metal and the groups opened up drastically and it took 10 rounds through each barrel to tight back up.... Since then the only thing I do is swab the bores with Balistol.

 

[mdwest]

For my hunting rifles, I clean them thoroughly once a year... at the end of hunting season the get a good scrubbing and put in the safe.. a few months before hunting season starts I'll typically make a handful of trips to the range to confirm zero, make sure everything is working properly, and just to refamiliarize myself with the guns.. then hunt them all season.. then clean at the end, and start the process all over again.. I find that is more than enough to keep things functioning well, prevent corrosion, maintain accuracy, etc..etc..

For my shotguns, "it depends".. my O/U's largely get treated the same as the hunting rifles.. the exception will be if Ive taken one out a couple of times for clays and have shot a few hundred shells, I'll typically do a light cleaning and just wipe off the action, punch the barrels, and apply a light coat of oil.. otherwise they dont see a good cleaning until the end of hunting season.. My semi's are a little more finicky.. Ive got a benelli super vinci that is an outstanding waterfowl gun, but is prone to problems when it gets really fouled.. I normally scrub it down pretty good after every use..

Pistols are another "it depends".. I couldnt tell you the last time I thoroughly cleaned my G19... it might get a drop of oil put on the rails once a year or so... and if I do a heavy range day with it I might wipe down all the surfaces and again drop a tiny bit of oil on the rails.. but I truthfully cant remember the last time I stripped it down for "armorers" level maintenance and really cleaned it..

Its not that Im purposefully neglecting the pistol.. its simply that its functioning exactly like it is supposed to function.. I bet I havent had a malfunction out of that gun in the last 15 years.. and Ive put tens upon tens of thousands of rounds through it.. so.. as long as its working exceptionally well and showing no signs of corrosion or wear, why change what obviously isnt broken?

 

[akrifleman]

I've spoken to a couple barrel manufactures and read on barrel manufactures websites, as well as having this discussion with several pro shooters in various disciplines. They see more barrels than I ever will.

The nutshell is that you cannot technically overclean a barrel, but you can easily ruin one while cleaning. It seems to break down to incorrect procedures:

1) Not using a bore guide, allowing damage to the throat.
2) Not being very careful to not damage the crown. This is why many people have gone to composite rods instead of metal.
3) Mixing chemicals. After each chemical, you have to completely dry the bore. Otherwise you risk mixing chemicals, some of which have reactions to each other and the steel.

For hunting rifles, I clean mine after the season ends, and ensure oil is in all the metal, and I store in a safe with a dehumidifier. Lots of damage can occur in storage. Once the season starts, I'll clean the barrel if I shoot it enough that I've gone from fouled to accuracy issues (or 60 rds, personally).

For match rifles, mostly the barrel quality is noticeably higher, and I'll usually go two matches (plus action touch-ups). Many competitors keep something like CLP or Kroil to clean grit if an action or trigger fouls.

Each time I'm sure to use the bore guide, carbon fiber cleaning rods, and a patch wrapped over the brush. I use a regular solvent like #9, and clean until the barrel shows clean and dry. I then use a Teslong to verify copper. I use an aggressive copper solvent only when needed and dry.

I once damaged a crown with an aluminum rod (before I knew better), and I didn't always understand copper fouling (a Teslong is illuminating). I've otherwise never had any trouble keeping match grade accuracy, usually over the reported barrel life reported by others (I also rarely run peak loads).

I used to always follow mfg break in procedures, but now I run Final Finish first, clean, and then run my ladder.

YMMV

 

[steve white]

@steve white
More rifles are ruined by over/ inappropriate cleaning than are ruined by shooting them.
The cleaning routine for the old SMLE 303 was simple.
After the shoot pour boiling water down the barrel to neutralize the corrosive salts. The hot water didn't affect the barrel as it dried quickly.
Finish with a patch soaked in 303 oil. Done.

My rifles only ever see nylon brushes. After a shoot/hunt they get a few passes with a dry nylon brush, then a clean patch followed by an oil soaked patch and done. Before a shoot/hunt I just run a dry patch down the bore to remove excess oil. When accuracy starts to fall off it gets a thorough clean.
My Whelen hasn't had bore cleaner in it for over 150 shots and is still what I call clean, no copper. That's why I love CFE 223. Still shoots sub moa.
My sons 308 hasn't seen bore cleaner for a few years and over 300 rounds. Same powder as the Whelen and still shoots sub moa.
I don't believe in barrel break in. To me it's a waste of ammunition. Yes some barrels may improve after a 100 rounds or so but why waste ammo getting there. Sight in and shoot. If groups get bigger clean it and keep shooting.
Normally if a barrel doesn't shoot reasonably well from the start there's a good chance it never will.
There's a plethora of carbon, copper, powder, plastic etc cleaners out there to entice the fastidious cleaner but which is best. Depends on the advertisement budget.
Personally I like to keep it simple.
Shoot
Oil
Swab
Shoot.
If/when accuracy drops off give gun a proper clean, then repeat above.
Just my opinion but works for me and has done for a lot of years.
Bob

Are there any reloading recipes for 375 H&H using CFE223 or other CFE powders?

 

[Newboomer]

Are there any reloading recipes for 375 H&H using CFE223 or other CFE powders?

On all my guns I run a bore snake with solvent followed by dry patches and a slightly oiled patch after a range session. A dry patch before shooting to remove oil.