Are we cleaning our guns to death?

[Newboomer]

Very well said. There are tools and methods that apply to all firearms in order to avoid damage to the crown, throat or lands of the rifling. There are also proper cleaning methods that apply to each bore condition and age, etc.

Firearms that normally use lead bullets with no jacket, like rimfire, muzzle loaders and Black Powder Cartridge firearms should be cleaned differently from those that use jacketed bullets, or mono metal bullets.

I have everything from $5,000 Olympic level 10 meter air rifles, to heavy caliber DG rifles and long range target rifles. Each one has tools and a cleaning method suitable for that type of rifle.

That's why I use boresnakes. They work from both ends of the bbl.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

All that I would like to add, for the love of Africa, do not defoul your barrel before you get on the plane.
I have seen countless hunters arrive on our shooting range, shoot a dinner plate group, only for them to tell me that it was shooting 1 MOA before they left.
My first question is did the defoul the barrel using coppor solvent and 100% of them say yes. Easy fix, it just going to cost you 1/2 to 1 box of ammo sending rounds down range until the group closes up again.
If you feel that you are getting close to the number of shots where you usually defoul your barrel because you are seeing your groups get bigger, do the clean and get back onto the range to sort things out befire your leave.
I keep cheap ammo around just for this type of stuff.

@KMG Hunting Safaris
Im fortunate that both my 25 and my Whelen don't care if the barrel is clean or dirty, hot or cold they both shoot to the point of aim for every shot.
That why I pay the extra money and buy match grade hand lapped barrels for my rifles when I have them built. The hundred extra dollars is money well spent in my book.
Bob

 

[HankBuck]

It all started with inspecting a 100yr old K31 Swiss rifle, kept in an armory until bundled and sold. Wear to the stock apparent, but the bore and rifling absolutely pristine, and little wear to the throats. Reverse engineering how it came down to us after so many years in pristine order revealed consistent use of Waffenfett, to be updated later to Automatenfett. Special greases applied while the gun was still hot and left that way until, A. gun was cleaned if necessary later, (usually by a pull rope) B. Gun was swabbed out just before firing in the future. The grease seemed to not only stop corrosion, but dissolve lots of gunk as it sat. WHAT'S WRONG WITH DOING THAT TODAY?
Not that long ago, even some barrel manufacturers were advising "barrel break-in" protocols of fire one shot, clean to bare steel, fire two shots, etc. etc. Today I don't know anyone doing that anymore, or that believes it helps. We use brushes and strong cleaners, falling for "the latest and greatest."
Only recently, folks over on long range shooting sites have reversed course, saying that they don't even use brushes of any kind at all lately. Further, they feel older guns don't benefit from cleaning all the way to bare metal+pits. That the pits have to be somewhat filled before accuracy returns. Some are filling the pits with HBN, hexagonal boron nitrite.
What's a fellow to do with a brand spanking new rifle, for it to look as good in 100 yrs as the Swiss K31. True, they have barrels with 54 Rockwell hardness, but still.

@steve white - Never use steel or bronze brushes to clean a rifle bore —— nylon bristles only or patches…. use a solvent (copper cleaning or Hoppes), run a few patches down it, . I’m sure there are many variations - find one you are confident in and stick to that.

 

[skydiver386]

This thread has been helping with questions I’ve had for a long time. Can someone please expound on the below ideas or correct me if I’m wrong? This is not meant to be sarcastic or provocative. I’m really trying to decide what I should change in my cleaning approach. I’m no gunsmith. Walking through things:

1) I pull the trigger and send a bullet through the barrel. This barrel has some imperfections in terms of tooling marks, pits, voids, etc.

2) With the shot, some amount of copper fouling from the bullet is deposited on the surface of the bore. Some of this copper fouling is a good thing in terms of accuracy, and removing it should not be pursued unless accuracy in the rifle is starting to fall off. BUT some people don’t believe that or their individual rifle doesn’t hold to that, so they frequently clean that copper off back down to the bare bore metal.

3) With the shot, burning powder causes carbon deposit throughout the bore, and this is often worse at the throat and at the muzzle if using a suppressor or muzzle brake. This carbon is not a big deal, but should be cleaned out if accuracy starts to degrade or pressure starts to build. BUT some people believe that this carbon buildup is a problem no matter what (given that it introduces a variable) and should be at least partially removed after every practice session. Some people think it should be completely removed so any new shooting is through a carbon free barrel.

4) With the shot and with use, other residue besides the above copper and carbon will remain on the surface of the bore. Some shooters believe these other chemicals, rust, and residues are not a big deal and do not necessitate cleaning. Others use gun oil or another product to clean or neutralize them after every shooting session, out of fear that they will contribute to corrosion of the bore.
5) Some people believe the tools themselves used in cleaning can damage chambers, throats, bores, and or crowns. That potential damage is more of a risk to permanent accuracy than any of 1-4, so best not to clean or to do so under very controlled circumstances- using bore guides, only cleaning in certain directions, only using patches or plastic brushes, etc. Another camp uses abrasives in pursuit of a good clean. Another camp says there’s no way our cleaning tools can account for anywhere near the damage that the explosion of shooting a bullet down the barrel can cause, so don’t even worry about that aspect whether you clean frequently or not.

6) One camp backs up their position with pictures from a bore scope (I find these super interesting, by the way) illustrating the above principles. Another camp says stop worrying about what the bore looks like, just shoot the rifle and then clean it if accuracy falls off.

So someone who wants to diligently clean, remove carbon, and remove copper has ample reasons to do so. But someone who wants to superficially and quickly clean has some good evidence for taking this approach. But someone who never wants to clean has strong arguments…to not to.

But in general, the trend within the industry is less cleaning than has been the tradition in years past.

What am I missing? What am I not understanding? Or is there never going to be a consensus on all this and thus no reason to change my approach? And, most importantly, which of the above points have been so abundantly proven or disproven that I should not even consider them?

And one bonus question-How is any carbon, rust, soot, or other particles a threat to the steel of the bore if is sitting on a nice layer of copper? Or is that layer of copper not evenly distributed so the steel of the bore is always at risk of corrosion if anything at all corrosive is left in the bore?

There are to many variables.

Old school had to deal with corrosive primers and very erosive powders. Lead deposits were more of a concern than copper fouling. Barrel Steel and the type of rifling were different.

I'm with @Bob Nelson 35Whelen when it comes to barrels and cleaning. A hand lapped match grade barrel that doesn't accumulate much fouling, and gets squeaky cleaned after every trip to the range, or on a hunt, is the way to go.

With older barrels that have fire cracking near the throat just ahead of the chamber, I clean less often.

This rough surface develops after a few thousand rounds, and leaving this area smoothed over with copper fouling is better than cleaning down to bare steel. This is EROSION due to the high pressure sandblasting the rifling is subjected to just ahead of the chamber. A 30 Carbine or 30-30 Win barrel may go 10,000 rounds before this becomes so severe that the barrel should be replaced. A 300 RUM can wear a throat this severely within 1,000 rounds.

This is CORROSION caused by lack of cleaning, corrosive primers, etc. Being an old Match shooter from my early teens, I was taught to clean all the way down to bare steel, then run a few oil soaked patches down the bore. That way there isn't anything to attract moisture, or promote galvanic action. With a barrel that is in bad shape from neglect, or has tooling marks from the manufacturer, or is worn from age, I'll leave just enough fouling to smooth things out, and keep the bore well oiled to prevent further corrosion.

Air rifles are cleaned with a special .177 or .22 Bore Snake meant for airguns with no bristles. Balistol is the strongest thing I've ever needed in an airgun.

Long answer, but as I said in my first post on this thread, it all depends on the particular gun and the condition of that barrel.

 

[BryceM]

I clean infrequently these days. Using match-grade barrels helps. Trying to de-copper a Mk V Weatherby after using a few hundred Barnes bullets is a chore.

All of my thinking changed when I got a borescope. Now, I just have a look. I don't like carbon, but it's pretty easy to remove. A bit of copper is no biggie. Pay attention to the lug area. Hard to see. Hard to clean. Keeping that area clean and lubed is important on match-quality rifles.

In the high desert, things don't rust. Living on the coasts or in the South, it's important to keep a bit of oil on everything.

Getting a rifle re-barreled isn't that big of a deal.

For most hunting rifles, a clean every 100 or 200 rounds is probably plenty.

 

[Russ16]

Related question what bore scopes do you all like? What’s the best bang for the buck?

 

[Cooposo]

There are to many variables.

Old school had to deal with corrosive primers and very erosive powders. Lead deposits were more of a concern than copper fouling. Barrel Steel and the type of rifling were different.

I'm with @Bob Nelson 35Whelen when it comes to barrels and cleaning. A hand lapped match grade barrel that doesn't accumulate much fouling, and gets squeaky cleaned after every trip to the range, or on a hunt, is the way to go.

With older barrels that have fire cracking near the throat just ahead of the chamber, I clean less often.
View attachment 710516
This rough surface develops after a few thousand rounds, and leaving this area smoothed over with copper fouling is better than cleaning down to bare steel. This is EROSION due to the high pressure sandblasting the rifling is subjected to just ahead of the chamber. A 30 Carbine or 30-30 Win barrel may go 10,000 rounds before this becomes so severe that the barrel should be replaced. A 300 RUM can wear a throat this severely within 1,000 rounds.

View attachment 710517
This is CORROSION caused by lack of cleaning, corrosive primers, etc. Being an old Match shooter from my early teens, I was taught to clean all the way down to bare steel, then run a few oil soaked patches down the bore. That way there isn't anything to attract moisture, or promote galvanic action. With a barrel that is in bad shape from neglect, or has tooling marks from the manufacturer, or is worn from age, I'll leave just enough fouling to smooth things out, and keep the bore well oiled to prevent further corrosion.

Air rifles are cleaned with a special .177 or .22 Bore Snake meant for airguns with no bristles. Balistol is the strongest thing I've ever needed in an airgun.

Long answer, but as I said in my first post on this thread, it all depends on the particular gun and the condition of that barrel.

Thanks for the detailed reply. I’m a bit of a chemistry nerd so I find these different processes super interesting.

 

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

@KMG Hunting Safaris
Im fortunate that both my 25 and my Whelen don't care if the barrel is clean or dirty, hot or cold they both shoot to the point of aim for every shot.
That why I pay the extra money and buy match grade hand lapped barrels for my rifles when I have them built. The hundred extra dollars is money well spent in my book.
Bob

Very interesting info on the hand lapped barrels, Bob. Appreciate the message.

 

[steve white]

I cheaped out on the first barrel I ever had replaced, looked for the best price. And it shot 3/4 inch. But I can see the false economy of it in longevity, ease of cleaning, and gilt edged accuracy. Will definitely take Bob's advice going forward, if for no other reason than the large associated costs of having barrels put on correctly. At the time I had a retired machinist friend, so it mattered little. But now, I want maximum bang for the buck.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I cheaped out on the first barrel I ever had replaced, looked for the best price. And it shot 3/4 inch. But I can see the false economy of it in longevity, ease of cleaning, and gilt edged accuracy. Will definitely take Bob's advice going forward, if for no other reason than the large associated costs of having barrels put on correctly. At the time I had a retired machinist friend, so it mattered little. But now, I want maximum bang for the buck.

@steve white
I have found Llija and our Australian made MAB match grade barrels to be of exceptional quality whilst the the Douglas air gauged match barrel while good quality didn't produce the accuracy of the other two. Pac-nor, shiellen also produces good barrels. These are stainless steel.

I did by but a Chrome Moly MAB barrel that I had them lap for me for my sons 25. That barrel delivers exceptional accuracy and is a breeze to clean as well. That 25 is built on an SMLE No4 action and will put three shots into an inch and a half at 200 yards off the bench with a 100fn Speer btsp at 3,200 fps or a 117gn SST at just under 3,000fps into the same spot. Not bad for an old military rifle that's not known for its accuracy.That barrel was $500 done like that where as the stainless that come already done were only $550 at the time but a stainless wouldn't have suited the rifle I wanted it blued.
Bob

 

[steve white]

@steve white
I have found Llija and our Australian made MAB match grade barrels to be of exceptional quality whilst the the Douglas air gauged match barrel while good quality didn't produce the accuracy of the other two. Pac-nor, shiellen also produces good barrels. These are stainless steel.

I did by but a Chrome Moly MAB barrel that I had them lap for me for my sons 25. That barrel delivers exceptional accuracy and is a breeze to clean as well. That 25 is built on an SMLE No4 action and will put three shots into an inch and a half at 200 yards off the bench with a 100fn Speer btsp at 3,200 fps or a 117gn SST at just under 3,000fps into the same spot. Not bad for an old military rifle that's not known for its accuracy.That barrel was $500 done like that where as the stainless that come already done were only $550 at the time but a stainless wouldn't have suited the rifle I wanted it blued.
Bob

Funny you should mention the Douglas air gauged--that's what I bought.
I really like to see the old classics reworked and shooting actually better than new. Well done.

 

[akrifleman]

This thread has been helping with questions I’ve had for a long time. Can someone please expound on the below ideas or correct me if I’m wrong? This is not meant to be sarcastic or provocative. I’m really trying to decide what I should change in my cleaning approach. I’m no gunsmith. Walking through things:

1) I pull the trigger and send a bullet through the barrel. This barrel has some imperfections in terms of tooling marks, pits, voids, etc.

2) With the shot, some amount of copper fouling from the bullet is deposited on the surface of the bore. Some of this copper fouling is a good thing in terms of accuracy, and removing it should not be pursued unless accuracy in the rifle is starting to fall off. BUT some people don’t believe that or their individual rifle doesn’t hold to that, so they frequently clean that copper off back down to the bare bore metal.

3) With the shot, burning powder causes carbon deposit throughout the bore, and this is often worse at the throat and at the muzzle if using a suppressor or muzzle brake. This carbon is not a big deal, but should be cleaned out if accuracy starts to degrade or pressure starts to build. BUT some people believe that this carbon buildup is a problem no matter what (given that it introduces a variable) and should be at least partially removed after every practice session. Some people think it should be completely removed so any new shooting is through a carbon free barrel.

4) With the shot and with use, other residue besides the above copper and carbon will remain on the surface of the bore. Some shooters believe these other chemicals, rust, and residues are not a big deal and do not necessitate cleaning. Others use gun oil or another product to clean or neutralize them after every shooting session, out of fear that they will contribute to corrosion of the bore.
5) Some people believe the tools themselves used in cleaning can damage chambers, throats, bores, and or crowns. That potential damage is more of a risk to permanent accuracy than any of 1-4, so best not to clean or to do so under very controlled circumstances- using bore guides, only cleaning in certain directions, only using patches or plastic brushes, etc. Another camp uses abrasives in pursuit of a good clean. Another camp says there’s no way our cleaning tools can account for anywhere near the damage that the explosion of shooting a bullet down the barrel can cause, so don’t even worry about that aspect whether you clean frequently or not.

6) One camp backs up their position with pictures from a bore scope (I find these super interesting, by the way) illustrating the above principles. Another camp says stop worrying about what the bore looks like, just shoot the rifle and then clean it if accuracy falls off.

So someone who wants to diligently clean, remove carbon, and remove copper has ample reasons to do so. But someone who wants to superficially and quickly clean has some good evidence for taking this approach. But someone who never wants to clean has strong arguments…to not to.

But in general, the trend within the industry is less cleaning than has been the tradition in years past.

What am I missing? What am I not understanding? Or is there never going to be a consensus on all this and thus no reason to change my approach? And, most importantly, which of the above points have been so abundantly proven or disproven that I should not even consider them?

And one bonus question-How is any carbon, rust, soot, or other particles a threat to the steel of the bore if is sitting on a nice layer of copper? Or is that layer of copper not evenly distributed so the steel of the bore is always at risk of corrosion if anything at all corrosive is left in the bore?

A great many things have changed over the years. The quality of the steel, the tolerances, the chemicals used in powder, the changes in the jackets, and the chemicals in the cleaners.

However,

Copper fouling: Match barrels tend to be far better finished inside, so they hold consistently over a longer period of time. You look at a cheap barrel, and you'll see a bunch more tooling marks, and when you look at copper deposits, they are all over the place, instead of just streaks. When you clean the copper out of a cheap barrel, your removing the buildup that stabilized the friction and contact patch on the bullet, as well as sealing gas leakage. Same thing happens in a match barrel, but the accuracy node difference between clean and over fouled is much wider, as all the tooling marks and pits aren't soaking up so much garbage. I have an extraordinarily pitted Garand rifle. Still shoots exceptionally well, cleans up something awful. Takes longer to foul, and it needs cleaned badly after just one match.

Carbon fouling: A chemical residue is left. Left too long, and it can and will be corrosive. Enough fouling will also adversely impact accuracy. Very simply, if your going to store for a while, you need to remove carbon fouling. If your going to shoot a match or hunt in a week... you're likely to be better off leaving it be until it starts to matter.

Most cleaning procedures were invented when EVERYTHING was far more corrosive. And like almost everything, people continue to do it, without ever asking the original reason. Eventually, it becomes part of the religion passed down in hushed tones.

If you want to take the advice of "a guy" over the people that sell thousands of barrels, gunsmith pro shooters, or are pro shooters... just remember he probably was told the "right way" by a Dad or Uncle 40 yrs ago, and the science has long since caught up and surpassed the knowledge we had just ten years ago. I'm sure "your guy" knows more than the guys who service hundreds of barrels.

People have success a myriad of ways. It isn't "wrong" to use an aluminum cleaning rod, it's not best practice. But, you or anyone with a bore camera can see the scratches left by one if you rub it against the crown. Nobody had bore cameras, so who's grandfather was showing who's son the damage? When you literally see hundreds of barrels scratched by cleaning rods over time, you can bet your ass the manufacture is correct. Doesn't mean one guy that is damn careful will ever damage his rifle. This is where all the massive amount of incorrect information comes from. Every time you hear somebody tell you it haven't ever hurt anything and never will, you'll see a manufacturer with a pile of failed parts that somebody knew better than they did. There will always be a variation or exception. The information we are given buy the people who are being paid to shoot or are selling many barrels is to save most of us from ourselves.

 

[akrifleman]

Some manufactures recommend a break in some do not. How much to clean is a ongoing debate. Some long range shooters swear you need to clean every 30-50 shots aome dont clean until accuracy drops off.
I clean when and if accuracy drops or the end of the season before I anticipate a longer storage time. Most of my rifles will require 5-10 shots after cleaning before good accuracy returns. But even then I am talking maybe 1/2 to 1/4 moa improvement after 5 or so shots. THe bigger bores/ older hunting rifles I do not really see much change.
But I absolutly think most people cause more wear from cleaning than shooting.

Most of what we think of as a "break in" is nothing more than removing tooling marks. Premium makers don't leave such rough finishes, so they've come to realize it isn't required. Most pro disciplines will have easily removed any marks by the time load development is done.

 

[Sideshow]

Any opinions on suppressor pushing carbon back into the barrel? I have a 7-08 that fouls fast when shooting suppressed. After 60 to 80 shots, accuracy starts going. Carbon clean solves the issue. Hence I have a love hate relationship with the suppressor. Feels to me it causes over cleaning.

Yes I’ve heard some say that it creates an eddie effect our back draft. Which draws the carbon and gases in the suppressor back into the barrel. My view is that if you have a long shot string where the suppressor heats up then this will cause the carbon to bake on near the muzzle. Hence no long shot strings and I try not to let my suppressor to get to hot. The one way to kill a barrel faster than over cleaning ever will is leaving that suppressor on when storing! I have a DPT suppressor that I disassemble after each outing and soak in WD40. Then store in a separate cabinet than my rifles.
As for cleaning same as Bob. Apart from a disassembly at the end of each year. And a rub through with CNC marine protection. Leaving a light film on the barrel. Excellent stuff that.

 

[Sideshow]

Well, for shotguns the best method I have found is to have a dedicated rod and brush with 0000 steel wool wound on the brush and the rod chucked in a drill. Put a bit of solvent of your choice and run it in and out at medium speed spin. Helps to put the rod through a deprimed spent shot shell (or your favorite bushing) to keep it centered. It will remove all plastic, lead and whatever and burnish the bore YES WITHOUT REMOVING MEASURABLE METAL, GUARANTEED. Guaranteed by Ralph Walker, author of Shotgun Gunsmithing, who had the wherewithal to measure barrel walls and stated such. You'll like it, and it's quick as a flash.

I tried that a few times Steve. But now I just take my barrels off spray a liberal dose of Napier cleaning product down each barrel stand it barrel down a leave to soak. Have a coffee. Then take some paper towel and push this through with the cleaning rod. Just keep refreshing the towel till clean. That way you’re not removing and adding like you would with a mop. Might try the wool again and then paper towel to remove and leftover residue. But I don’t use plastic wads so the Napier product takes care of the rest.

 

[akrifleman]

Any opinions on suppressor pushing carbon back into the barrel? I have a 7-08 that fouls fast when shooting suppressed. After 60 to 80 shots, accuracy starts going. Carbon clean solves the issue. Hence I have a love hate relationship with the suppressor. Feels to me it causes over cleaning.

All suppressors trap gases and particulates, without exception. Some combinations of suppressor, action type, powder, cartridge, barrel, etc, etc, et al make a real mess, and some less so.

I just bring an appropriate Hoppe Bore Snake to "clean it enough", when they start to really carbon foul. My rimfire needs two pulls and no more or less, and anything my TBAC is on gets exactly one. That cleans up the garbage enough, without ruining the "fouled barrel".

I suspect just a quick pull may keep your 7mm-08 in trim (until your ready to fully clean). Obviously test it, and make sure it holds accuracy as a semi-fouled barrel.

YMMV