Any of you stop a charge with a handgun?

[Doug Hamilton]

View attachment 719640View attachment 719642

Dear Mr @Carnivore hunter. As someone who has hunted DG in Africa several times; achieved the Big 5; witnessed the taking of the Big 5 by handgun; guided for 35 years in North America from September through January each year, including 20 years in Alaska for brown bears each May, with clients using all types of weaponry, including handguns, bows and rifles; perhaps you will allow me to further comment on your opinions and videos that you posted?

In addition to the above, my best friend, Jim, is one of the most experienced handgun hunters in the world. I personally guided him on the 10’3” bear, pictured. I also watched and backed him up when he killed his elephant and buffalo in Tanzania in 2023, both one-shot kills. He also took a leopard by handgun on that same safari but I was not in the blind with him and the PH. Jim also shot PG on that safari with both handguns and a rifle. He attempted a hippo with a handgun but the hippo had to be finished with a rifle. I will be with Jim and my son in Tanzania in 2027, when they will split a full bag. I will be with him in Cameroon in 2028 for LDE and western savanna buffalo.

Jim and I completely agree that any animal on earth can be taken with a proper handgun IF conditions are right. On the other hand, we both completely agree that there is nothing more effective than a proper DG bolt rifle or a double rifle for hunting and following up wounded game. To hunt DG with a handgun requires a lot of experience and is not for everyone. Following up wounded game with any handgun puts you at a disadvantage versus a proper rifle for that task. Period. Contrary to popular opinion, a properly tuned bolt rifle is very fast. On my Tanzanian lion hunt in 2023, I fired three shots from my bolt rifle in under three seconds with two of them being lethal hits. Try that with a 500 S&W or even a 44 Rem Mag. The recoil makes it impossible. When Jim heard my shots from a distance, he assumed that my PH must have fired one of the shots but he did not.

As I said in an earlier post, I don’t always carry a sidearm and never have in Africa. Carrying a PROPER sidearm as an emergency backup plan is fine and recommend if you are alone. I would want one if my rifle became inoperable or if a DG animal got me down on the ground. If primarily rifle hunting, what do I consider to be a proper sidearm? Well, it certainly would NOT be a big clunky 44 Rem Mag, a 500 S&W or a 500 Linebaugh. Those are a primary hunting handgun, not something for a backup plan when crap hits the fan. I would agree with Phil Shoemaker on a 357 Mag wheel gun or a 9mm or 10mm semiautomatic pistol. Both are much easier to carry and much more handy with less recoil for getting off multiple shots, as Phil explained.

Great post. I am afraid though that some people are so wrapped up in there own fantasies and delusions that no amount of facts and experience will change their minds. Sad.

 

[Carnivore hunter]

And that was based on your vast experience with African dangerous game. I'm guessing you don't gave any on North America either.

Personally, I carry a .44 mag when I'm fishing in grizzly and moose country, but I don't when I'm hunting. If you can't kill it with a .300 Win Mag, a handgun is not going to help. I don't care how many Jungle Jim movies you've watched.

Phil Shoemaker killed a coastal brown bear with a 9mm 147gr hard cast. Phil used Buffalobore ammo hard cast to do it. The photos and evidence is on Buffalobore's website. Phil also mentioned he talked to Tim Sundles about it...

9MM +P OUTDOORSMAN Pistol and Handgun Bullets Pistol & Handgun Ammunition

9MM +P OUTDOORSMAN Pistol and Handgun Bullets Field Proven pistol and handgun ammo. Maximum firepower bullets. Best ammunition for pistols and handguns for sale. Buffalo Bore. Strictly big bore. Strictly Business.

www.buffalobore.com

 

[Carnivore hunter]

Phil Shoemaker also gave an interview to Big Game Hunting Blog...

 

[Carnivore hunter]

Great post. I am afraid though that some people are so wrapped up in there own fantasies and delusions that no amount of facts and experience will change their minds. Sad.

He also posted a photo of a large brown bear killed with a handgun on his post you liked...

Photos courtesy of Scott CWO...

 

[Betterinthebush]

I feel like I’m being punked here…

(Looking around over shoulders for cameras)

 

[Carnivore hunter]

if you’re their fearless leader, I’ll take my light-Sabre off my night stand charger.

We duly await thy challenge!

Can you refute Phil Shoemaker's claims and evidence/proof about all the brown bears killed in Alaska with calibers .223, .22-250, .243 and his own 9mm?...

9MM +P OUTDOORSMAN Pistol and Handgun Bullets Pistol & Handgun Ammunition

9MM +P OUTDOORSMAN Pistol and Handgun Bullets Field Proven pistol and handgun ammo. Maximum firepower bullets. Best ammunition for pistols and handguns for sale. Buffalo Bore. Strictly big bore. Strictly Business.

www.buffalobore.com

American Hunter's official website...

An Official Journal Of The NRA | Alaska Outfitter Defends Fishermen from Raging Grizzly with 9mm Pistol

Two weeks ago, veteran outfitter Phil Shoemaker was guiding two fishing clients in the Alaska bush when the party came face to face with an enraged grizzly. Shoemaker, armed only with a 9mm semi-auto pistol, defended his clients and himself. Here’s his account …

www.americanhunter.org

 

[Carnivore hunter]

Hunter gets charged by Grizzly and stops it with 10mm...

 

[Scott CWO]

Thanks for that, Scott. Unfortunately, I don't believe this guy can be educated. Obviously, hunting with a handgun is apples and oranges different from using one for self defense.

Interesting re your story about shooting the lion with three rounds from a bolt action cycled in less than three seconds. I don't know exactly how long it took me to put two bullets into a charging gemsbuck at less than thirty yards but it certainly was no more than three seconds and a third round was cycled by the time the gemsbuck piled up maybe fifteen yards past me. Glad to read someone who can confirm the "impossibility" of rapid firing a bolt action. Curious if you cycled your rifle from the shoulder? I'm pretty sure I did not ... because I never do. Rifle is cradled against my waist with elbow while I work the bolt, then remounted for followup. Which of your three bullets was non-lethal? First?

I cycle from the shoulder. Well before the safari, I decided that I wanted to take the lion with a traditional wood-stocked and blued rifle, rather than with one of my two AHR CZ550s, which are composite-stocked and Cerakoted, that I mainly use in Alaska. Wayne Jacobson of AHR agreed to smooth up the action (Wayne’s term was “stone” the action) on my Interarms Whitworth Express in 375 H&H, install a Timney trigger and install a three-position M70-type safety. When I got the Whitworth back from Wayne, the action cycled beautifully.

The lion was 80 yards and quartered towards me on the first shot and I found the 300 grain Swift A-Frame just under the hide on the opposite rear quarter/hip. I missed the second shot as the lion was spinning around. My third shot immediately dropped the lion and hit him while spinning and quartered away. The bullet entered the guts and it was found in the opposite side front shoulder. It was a big-bodied lion (Mike Fell said his largest) so neither bullet exited, which is not completely surprising for quartering shots on a 500+ pound animal.

 

[Scott CWO]

Great post. Thanks for all that.

Not speaking of Africa. You say you don’t always carry a handgun, but then later say you certainly would always like one if rifle not available. Why then would you not always carry one?

I would never drop my rifle to use a handgun. But if in tent at night, taking a pee, or getting mauled a handgun would give me some defense. I never hunt without a sidearm where legal.

I carry a sidearm in SE Alaska when guiding there because the beaches are narrow and the old-growth forests above the beaches are very thick and some bears don’t die within sight on the open beaches. I don’t allow a client to go in with me to look for a wounded bear in the forest. It’s too noisy for two people and I don’t want the bear to hear me/us coming. If they hear you, they charge. I’m usually able to see the bear before it sees me if I go in silently.

Conversely, the Alaskan Peninsula is more open and the bears usually drop/die within sight. If not, the alders bordering the open areas are not leafed out yet so it is not usually quite as thick because there are no coniferous trees. I usually have the hunter accompany me on those follow-ups.

 

[Carnivore hunter]

I cycle from the shoulder. Well before the safari, I decided that I wanted to take the lion with a traditional wood-stocked and blued rifle, rather than with one of my two AHR CZ550s, which are composite-stocked and Cerakoted, that I mainly use in Alaska. Wayne Jacobson of AHR agreed to smooth up the action (Wayne’s term was “stone” the action) on my Interarms Whitworth Express in 375 H&H, install a Timney trigger and install a three-position M70-type safety. When I got the Whitworth back from Wayne, the action cycled beautifully.

The lion was 80 yards and quartered towards me on the first shot and I found the 300 grain Swift A-Frame just under the hide on the opposite rear quarter/hip. I missed the second shot as the lion was spinning around. My third shot immediately dropped the lion and hit him while spinning and quartered away. The bullet entered the guts and it was found in the opposite side front shoulder. It was a big-bodied lion (Mike Fell said his largest) so neither bullet exited, which is not completely surprising for quartering shots on a 500+ pound animal.

Have you tried the North Fork Percussion Point PP on Lions yet? Ph Kevin Robertson highly recommends them on cats.

 

[Carnivore hunter]

I carry a sidearm in SE Alaska when guiding there because the beaches are narrow and the old-growth forests above the beaches are very thick and I don’t allow a client to go in with me to look for a wounded bear. It’s too noisy for two people and I don’t want the bear to hear me/us coming. If they hear you, they charge. I’m usually able to see the bear before it sees me if I go in silently.

Conversely, the Alaskan Peninsula is more open and the bears usually drop/die within sight. If not, the alders bordering the open areas are not leafed out yet so it is not usually quite as thick because there are no coniferous trees. I usually have the hunter accompany me on those follow-ups.

When you pursue a wounded bear after it's been shot, do you give the bear time and wait before you pursue? I've read and heard from other guides in interviews that they wait at least 30 to 60 minutes before pursuing to give the bear enough time to bleed out.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I cycle from the shoulder. Well before the safari, I decided that I wanted to take the lion with a traditional wood-stocked and blued rifle, rather than with one of my two AHR CZ550s, which are composite-stocked and Cerakoted, that I mainly use in Alaska. Wayne Jacobson of AHR agreed to smooth up the action (Wayne’s term was “stone” the action) on my Interarms Whitworth Express in 375 H&H, install a Timney trigger and install a three-position M70-type safety. When I got the Whitworth back from Wayne, the action cycled beautifully.

The lion was 80 yards and quartered towards me on the first shot and I found the 300 grain Swift A-Frame just under the hide on the opposite rear quarter/hip. I missed the second shot as the lion was spinning around. My third shot immediately dropped the lion and hit him while spinning and quartered away. The bullet entered the guts and it was found in the opposite side front shoulder. It was a big-bodied lion (Mike Fell said his largest) so neither bullet exited, which is not completely surprising for quartering shots on a 500+ pound animal.

I only shoot low gun at skeet and clays. It is the key to rapidly mounting a rifle and accurately shooting moving targets.

The Czech 98 Mauser I built into 404J also cycles slick. I figured out a couple of tricks along the way. An important one was slightly beveling the front sides of the cocking piece sear so it "finds" the track in the receiver tang more smoothly when the bolt is closed. Also I relieved some spring tension from the extractor which allows cartridges to jump onto the bolt face more efficiently. But I have a feeling that extractor was not original to my Brno vz.24 action. Stoning probably meant he smoothed machining marks in the receiver tracks for the bolt. I also opted for a 3-position Model 70 style safety and conventional Timney trigger. Did you scope your Whitworth? I'd like to see that rifle.

 

[Scott CWO]

When you pursue a wounded bear after it's been shot, do you give the bear time and wait before you pursue? I've read and heard from other guides in interviews that they wait at least 30 to 60 minutes before pursuing to give the bear enough time to bleed out.

A great question. There are two lines of thought on the subject with no clear cut answer in my mind. I think it depends on the situation.

Another good friend and great bear guide I have worked for in SE Alaska is Dale Adams of Adams Alaskan Safaris. Dale believes in going into the forest immediately while the bear is still reeling and in shock from what just happened. His theory is that the bear has not had time to organize its thoughts and setup an ambush. He hopes to get on the bear before it button hooks and sets up to watch its back trail.

The other line of thinking, as you mentioned, is to wait and hope the bear dies before you find it.

The time of the day also matters. If it’s late, getting dark soon and the bear makes it off the beach or meadow, we usually take a quick peek into the first line of cover and seeing nothing, back out and come back mid morning with full daylight.

On the Alaska Peninsula, where it is more mountainous, I often wait about 45 minutes and then flank to the downwind side and try to get elevation so that I can look down into the cover where I last saw the bear. This has worked well for me. If it’s impossible to be quiet due to Devil’s club brush or thick alders, after a safety talk, I usually take the hunter with me and slowly flank the PLS (point last seen) and try to get above the PLS and look down into the PLS while also looking for blood or sign. This maneuver saved my butt in May of 2024 on a big 10’ boar that dropped from the client’s shot, rolled downhill and disappeared into waist-high brush where we could not see it to know if it was dead or alive.

After waiting 45 minutes, the client, an Army surgeon Colonel from Bethesda, and I climbed and flanked downwind to the right of the PLS in noisy Devil’s club and scattered alders. When we were about 60 yards away and at the same elevation as the PLS, the wounded bear heard us and charged straight at us. Thank God we were to the side of the bear and not directly below it. I immediately got my feet set, shouldered my CZ550 Lott and shot the bear at about 20 yards. It dropped and disappeared again in the brush. We continued flanking the new PLS and then got straight up the slope above the PLS and waited a few minutes before slowly walking downhill to the PLS. At just five yards, I spotted the bear laying in a position that led me to think it should be dead. It was but I had the client shoot it just to make sure. After a sigh of relief and a drink of water, we then rolled the bear down the steep slope out of the brush and into the open for proper pictures. This boar, with a perfect hide, was killed on the steep slopes of the Veniaminof Volcano. You can see the lava ribbons in the background. Note that my client is also sporting a sidearm across his chest.

 

[Scott CWO]

I only shoot low gun at skeet and clays. It is the key to rapidly mounting a rifle and accurately shooting moving targets.

The Czech 98 Mauser I built into 404J also cycles slick. I figured out a couple of tricks along the way. An important one was slightly beveling the front sides of the cocking piece sear so it "finds" the track in the receiver tang more smoothly when the bolt is closed. Also I relieved some spring tension from the extractor which allows cartridges to jump onto the bolt face more efficiently. But I have a feeling that extractor was not original to my Brno vz.24 action. Stoning probably meant he smoothed machining marks in the receiver tracks for the bolt. I also opted for a 3-position Model 70 style safety and conventional Timney trigger. Did you scope your Whitworth? I'd like to see that rifle.

I’ve read about the description of your rifle before and it sounds like a great firearm that you should be proud of. I know you built it yourself. I only wish I had those type of skills. As you know, my Whitworth is a working class production rifle but I did find one here on AH with great wood for a production rifle. I hope you like it. It’s sporting a Leupold VX6 2-12x scope. I also attached a picture of the new safety that Wayne installed.

 

[Carnivore hunter]

A great question. There are two lines of thought on the subject with no clear cut answer in my mind. I think it depends on the situation.

Another good friend and great bear guide I have worked for in SE Alaska is Dale Adams of Adams Alaskan Safaris. Dale believes in going into the forest immediately while the bear is still reeling and in shock from what just happened. His theory is that the bear has not had time to organize its thoughts and setup an ambush. He hopes to get on the bear before it button hooks and sets up to watch its back trail.

The other line of thinking, as you mentioned, is to wait and hope the bear dies before you find it.

The time of the day also matters. If it’s late, getting dark soon and the bear makes it off the beach or meadow, we usually take a quick peek into the first line of cover and seeing nothing, back out and come back mid morning with full daylight.

On the Alaska Peninsula, where it is more mountainous, I often wait about 45 minutes and then flank to the downwind side and try to get elevation so that I can look down into the cover where I last saw the bear. This has worked well for me. If it’s impossible to be quiet due to Devil’s club brush or thick alders, after a safety talk, I usually take the hunter with me and slowly flank the PLS (point last seen) and try to get above the PLS and look down into the PLS while also looking for blood or sign. This maneuver saved my butt in May of 2024 on a big 10’ boar that dropped from the client’s shot, rolled downhill and disappeared into waist-high brush where we could not see it to know if it was dead or alive.

After waiting 45 minutes, the client, an Army surgeon Colonel from Bethesda, and I climbed and flanked downwind to the right of the PLS in noisy Devil’s club and scattered alders. When we were about 60 yards away and at the same elevation as the PLS, the wounded bear heard us and charged straight at us. Thank God we were to the side of the bear and not directly below it. I immediately got my feet set, shouldered my CZ550 Lott and shot the bear at about 20 yards. It dropped and disappeared again in the brush. We continued flanking the new PLS and then got straight up the slope above the PLS and waited a few minutes before slowly walking downhill to the PLS. At just five yards, I spotted the bear laying in a position that led me to think it should be dead. It was but I had the client shoot it just to make sure. After a sigh of relief and a drink of water, we then rolled the bear down the steep slope out of the brush and into the open for proper pictures. This boar, with a perfect hide, was killed on the steep slopes of the Veniaminof Volcano. You can see the lava ribbons in the background. Note that my client is also sporting a sidearm across his chest.
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Wow, great story, very informative.

Have you ever used a thermal scope to hunt or pursue a wounded animal to make it easier for you to pickup the body heat and location of the animal in thick brush that the naked human eye can't detect due to lack of contrast?

Also, what is your recommended minimum rifle caliber for pursuing a wounded brown bear?

 

[Scott CWO]

Wow, great story, very informative.

Have you ever used a thermal scope to hunt or pursue a wounded animal to make it easier for you to pickup the body heat and location of the animal in thick brush that the naked human eye can't detect due to lack of contrast?

Also, what is your recommended minimum rifle caliber for pursuing a wounded brown bear?

Thermals are illegal for hunting in Colorado so I’ve never used one anywhere.

I like to see hunters bring a 338 Win Mag or a 375 H&H.

 

[Foxi]

A well-known professional hunter here in Bavaria, whom I met at a mess, told me the following story when I asked him about his serious injuries sustained by a large boar.
A hunting guest wounded a strong Keiler (male boar), and after a while he sent his dog into the thick cover and waited for his dog to bark, as he also believed the sow was dead.
Suddenly, he heard the plaintive yelping and whining of his BGS (Bayerischer Gebirgsschweisshund, a special bloodhound breed here).

Like any person who loves their dog, he immediately rushed into the bushes to help his dog. The boar saw him, literally threw the dog over the bushes, and ran over my acquaintance. His rifle flew through the air and landed in the undergrowth.
The boar came back and attacked him with its teeth. He pulled his .357 out of its holster and fired the entire cylinder into the chest of the boar lying on top of him.
The animal was dead. But here's what happened next:

The boar (150 kg) was so heavy that he couldn't push it aside to free himself, so he called for the hunting guest to help him. He was literally buried under the carcass.
Unfortunately, the guest didn't dare to go into the thicket because he was afraid the boar was still alive, and the PH had a justified fear of bleeding to death.
Finally, he entered the thicket to free the PH from his heavy burden, and he was taken to the hospital by helicopter, and everything turned out well.

Without a revolver, with a knife or a pistol that need to be unsafe (he only had one hand free), he would no longer be able to tell the story. The nice thing about a revolver is that it works like a flashlight—on and off. That's all there is to it. As @Scott CWO wrote above, these are emergency items.

Our professional woundsearch guides almost never carry a pistol or revolver, but the main reason for this is that they are afraid of losing them when following deer or wild boar on all fours through dense vegetation. If that happens, you lose your hunting license in Germany.......

Here you can see the strongest boar (many are much bigger) we've ever had on our wildlife camera in our concession.
Having to fend one off with a knife would be my nightmare.I hope I have my .357 with me in emergency.

 

[Carnivore hunter]

Without a revolver, with a knife or a pistol that need to be unsafe (he only had one hand free), he would no longer be able to tell the story. The nice thing about a revolver is that it works like a flashlight—on and off. That's all there is to it. As @Scott CWO wrote above, these are emergency items.

Our professional woundsearch guides almost never carry a pistol or revolver, but the main reason for this is that they are afraid of losing them when following deer or wild boar on all fours through dense vegetation. If that happens, you lose your hunting license in Germany.......

Wow! Amazing story!

This is why I believe hunters should have on them a revolver for an emergency. But, not just hunters also, hikers and campers.

That's also why I'm apprehensive about semi-auto pistols. If you put the muzzle up against something and fire it can jam itself out of battery. Not something you want when a wild animal or human attacker is on you. Semi-auto pistols also require two hand operation to rack the slide if a malfunction occurs. What if one of your hands is seriously injured or in the jaws of the animal or in the arms/hands of the human attacker? That's why I'm a supporter of double-action revolvers.

There are lots of very good chest holsters and shoulder holsters today that secure the handgun in place so it doesn't fall out. Also, handguns can be attached to a lanyard...

https://www.amazon.com/TECEUM-Tactical-Pistol-Lanyard-Accessories/dp/B0C211JW3N?th=1

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I’ve read about the description of your rifle before and it sounds like a great firearm that you should be proud of. I know you built it yourself. I only wish I had those type of skills. As you know, my Whitworth is a working class production rifle but I did find one here on AH with great wood for a production rifle. I hope you like it. It’s sporting a Leupold VX6 2-12x scope. I also attached a picture of the new safety that Wayne installed.View attachment 719720
View attachment 719721

Thanks. Very nice. I would say Whitworths were upper working class guns. I can't tell for certain from the photo but did Wayne leave the Whitworth 2-position side safety on your rifle? The 2nd stock for my rifle that I picked up used had been modified for one of those. And not by anyone who knew what he was doing. I suspect by the guy I bought it from. He tried to make it fit his H&R action (another outfit that remade Mausers for working class) but couldn't pull the action together so he gave up and sold the stock to me. The gunsmith who built the original gun had modified that action for a thinner stock wrist. Perhaps the client had small hands? I had to modify the mag box (slightly) and shorten the rear action screw before the action would pull together properly in the stock. Then I filled the slot in the stock for 2-position safety with colored epoxy. I added two recoil crossbolts as the stock was already starting to crack internally. A previous owner added a trap gun recoil pad (again a very poor job). I cleaned it up. Still need to order a red one.

I guess we shouldn't have derailed this thread. But it's become ridiculous.

 

[Scott CWO]

Thanks. Very nice. I would say Whitworths were upper working class guns. I can't tell for certain from the photo but did Wayne leave the Whitworth 2-position side safety on your rifle? The 2nd stock for my rifle that I picked up used had been modified for one of those. And not by anyone who knew what he was doing. I suspect by the guy I bought it from. He tried to make it fit his H&R action (another outfit that remade Mausers for working class) but couldn't pull the action together so he gave up and sold the stock to me. The gunsmith who built the original gun had modified that action for a thinner stock wrist. Perhaps the client had small hands? I had to modify the mag box (slightly) and shorten the rear action screw before the action would pull together properly in the stock. Then I filled the slot in the stock for 2-position safety with colored epoxy. I added two recoil crossbolts as the stock was already starting to crack internally. A previous owner added a trap gun recoil pad (again a very poor job). I cleaned it up. Still need to order a red one.
View attachment 719749
I guess we shouldn't have derailed this thread. But it's become ridiculous.

Wayne removed the two-position safety. The picture I posted of the rifle was taken before he did the work. The picture of the bolt a three-position safety is a newer picture.