Any of you stop a charge with a handgun?

[Carnivore hunter]

Have you even been to Alaska? I lived there for years, ran my own boat down the coast, have flown, fished and hunted most of the state. Once again, you call my experience anecdotal, while yours appears nonexistent and based purely on the experience of others.

Again, you did not address the claims by Lynn Thompson, Tim Sundles, Phil Shoemaker, Timmy Winslow, Morris Melani. Notice you focus on me personally and not the actual links/evidence I posted.

I never played in the NBA, I never claimed to but, I can post videos of Michael Jordan and interviews by him on his experience in the NBA or I can listen to your opinions on basketball because you might have gone to some NBA games through out your life.

 

[Carnivore hunter]

As I suspected, you have no personal experience with which to critically balance what you find on the internet. Because you clearly do not value the real world familiarity of those who do have such experiences, then I I would suggest those people would be far better off ignoring you. You clearly have zero intent of trying to benefit from those experiences and nothing to offer them.. The internet world labels such behavior a troll. Fortunately, the moderator has provided me with an ignore option.

Actually, I do respect people's personal lived experiences like Lynn Thompson who has far more experience than you do. Why should I take your opinions over real world experts? Why should your opinions trump the owner of Buffalobore? Or, Master Bear Guide Phil Shoemaker's? Or Lynn Thompson who killed over 5,000 animals?

Lynn Thompson, Cold Steel founder, on the secret to becoming a great handgun hunter...

I could listen to you or I can listen and learn from the real experts in the video above.

 

[WAB]

As I suspected, you have no personal experience with which to critically balance what you find on the internet. Because you clearly do not value the real world familiarity of those who do have such experiences, then I I would suggest those people would be far better off ignoring you. You clearly have zero intent of trying to benefit from those experiences and nothing to offer them.. The internet world labels such behavior a troll. Fortunately, the moderator has provided me with an ignore option.

You make a valid point. There is no helping some folks, which brings us to the magic button…

 

[JimP]

I see and he did go wild on posting.

I will say you also have no experience with handgun stopping a charge in Africa that I have seen. So we have to extrapolate from where it is used which is with bears.

I will admit that I have zero experience in hunting DG or stopping a charge in Africa. But I do have over 50 years of hunting with a handgun, both revolvers and single shots and know the capabilities of a handgun.

When people have the idea that a handgun is a capable weapon to stop a animal I ask them if they can hit a tennis ball as it is bouncing towards them after being thrown. That tennis ball represents the brain of a animal what you are going to have to hit to stop a adrenaline filled animal that is intent on doing you harm.

 

[Carnivore hunter]

I will admit that I have zero experience in hunting DG or stopping a charge in Africa. But I do have over 50 years of hunting with a handgun, both revolvers and single shots and know the capabilities of a handgun.

When people have the idea that a handgun is a capable weapon to stop a animal I ask them if they can hit a tennis ball as it is bouncing towards them after being thrown. That tennis ball represents the brain of a animal what you are going to have to hit to stop a adrenaline filled animal that is intent on doing you harm.

Then listen to the experts who have...

If you never shot a S&W 500 or 500 Linebaugh at a cape buffalo you do NOT know of it's capabilities. Neither do I but, I never claimed to. I have posted the claims of those who have in videos/links through out this thread. Not according to me but, according to Tim Sundles, he has tested handgun ammo on brown bears and moose. He has stated that hard cast lead bullets will stop brown bears and will break them down even if you do not hit the brain. He has stated the 50 caliber bullets will stop them very easily if the proper ammo is used which is hard cast lead or solid monolithic brass/copper.

I have posted many videos/links of hunters throughout this thread killing dangerous game with handguns and even with a spear. The handguns killed them very quickly in the videos.

Again, notice how you avoided Lynn Thompson's video of him stopping a buffalo charge head-on up close with a handgun and he did not hit the brain? Keep avoiding the video below and pretend it never existed because it challenges your beliefs that have proven not true and your ego can't handle it...

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

If you never shot a S&W 500 or 500 Linebaugh at a cape buffalo you do NOT know of it's capabilities. Neither do I but, I never claimed to. I have posted the claims of those who have in videos/links through out this thread. Not according to me but, according to Tim Sundles, he has tested handgun ammo on brown bears and moose. He has stated that hard cast lead bullets will stop brown bears and will break them down even if you do not hit the brain. He has stated the 50 caliber bullets will stop them very easily if the proper ammo is used which is hard cast lead or solid monolithic brass/copper.

Again, notice how you avoided Lynn Thompson's video of him stopping a buffalo charge head-on up close with a handgun and he did not hit the brain? Keep avoiding the video below and pretend it never existed because it challenges your beliefs that have proven not true and your ego can't handle it...

Point of fact, That is NOT an African Cape Buffalo in the video. It appears to be an Australian or Asian water buffalo. There is a difference.

When I was in the Philippines in 1980, men would walk their water buffalos through the back streets of Olonapo. I am not the world's expert on wild bovine, but I do not think anyone has ever domesticated a Cape Buffalo.

Cape buffalo do not realize they should have died two or three bullets ago...

 

[Ontario Hunter]

A man was killed in Alaska in 1999 by a brown bear. He had his bolt-action rifle with him but no side arm. He was killed. He was able to get off one shot. He put his rifle down to make lunch and was ambushed. That's the problem and disadvantage with rifles and only having a rifle on you and no sidearm open carry when you go hiking and camping...

Kenneth W. Cates

Outdoor Related Fatalities in Alaska

www.akfatal.net

Really? If he was killed, how do you know what happened to him? Was the killing witnessed by anyone but a bear? Do you know for sure the hunter didn't die of hypothermia (VERY common ... ask me how I know!) and bear just cleaned up the litter? It is more likely I'd get struck by lightning when hunting/fishing than attacked by a bear but I'm not wearing a helmet and dragging around a ground wire.

I don't need to hear a burglar break into my house. My dogs would make enough noise to wake Helen Keller. Anyway, I live in Canada. Home intrusion is rare enough here to make national news when/if it happens.

My 357 did not save my life. Subadult grizzly wouldn't get off the trail when I was riding out after fishing all day. It was near dark and I was on a strange horse that I was giving a test drive. Also had my black Lab with me (but she was a guided missile always under control). Subadults have been recently evicted by their mothers. They really don't know their place in the world yet, having always been guided by their moms. They do stupid stuff but rarely dangerous (as in essentially never dangerous). I know a few things about grizzlies. When I worked in Alaska we had upwards of eighty brown bears at the camp. It was my job to know their behavior and keep visitors safe. And no, I did not wear a handgun. Shotguns were in the safe but I only remember one coming out once. Of course those bears were mostly "habituated." Anyway, I had no intention of wasting that subadult as I'm sure it had no intention of causing me harm. I gave it every opportunity to give way but it didn't. I turned the horse around and bear was following. Okay, enough of this shit. Nearly dark and this has to be resolved. Turned her around and rode directly up the trail to bear. It stood up. Not going to have a showdown in the saddle of a strange horse. As I slid off I reached in the saddlebag for my handgun. Horse and dog both staying put. As I upholstered the gun, the bear returned to all fours, turned and went back up the trail. I put the gun on my belt and walked the horse out the last two miles to trailhead. Needless to say, I bought that horse! My greatest concern was having to fire a warning shot at bear and not knowing how the horse would react. Likely she would turn and run down the trail into the wilderness. Then I could be days trying to find a horse I didn't own ... and probably lose my job. Unfortunately, the young bear was killed six weeks later poking around a USFS cabin.

Second incident occurred thirteen years ago when I hiked into the same place with my three hunting dogs for a day of fly fishing. Arrived at the river, climbed into my Orvis chest waders, and was stringing up my rod on a gravel bar when I noticed my Lab Opal was peering around me at something down river. Looked over my shoulder and saw a sow grizzly and two cubs coming up the bar with stout wind at their backs. I immediately shouted at the dogs to stay put. They are experienced and know that tone of voice means business! Then I shouted at the bear. No effect. She could not hear, see, or smell us. She had the cubs in front of her and kept getting closer. I had to give her warning before she got much closer or risk a bluff charge. Then the dogs would be a problem. So I stripped off my wading belt, dropped my waders to knees, upholstered the 357, and put a warning shot off her port bow. She heard that and gathered the cubs but still couldn't see us. I grabbed the white PVC tube for my rod and waved that in the air. She turned and went back downriver. I put the pistol away, pulled up my waders, finished stringing the rod, and fished for the rest of the day. I walked out six miles in the dark with handgun in the daypack with waders, boots, and tackle (good thing too as I fell in the creek). I was not concerned about that bear. She was wild. I put on the bear bell and bear spray. Bear spray is a MUCH more effective deterant at close range. Wind was not blowing in the timber and the bell sound carried well. Now I can tell my great grandkids Papa actually "shot at" a grizzly once. But not in self defense. Maybe I don't need to tell them that?

 

[Carnivore hunter]

Point of fact, That is NOT an African Cape Buffalo in the video. It appears to be an Australian or Asian water buffalo. There is a difference.

When I was in the Philippines in 1980, men would walk their water buffalos through the back streets of Olonapo. I am not the world's expert on wild bovine, but I do not think anyone has ever domesticated a Cape Buffalo.

Cape buffalo do not realize they should have died two or three bullets ago...

But, this is very important below...

"The Australian water buffalo is generally larger than the Cape buffalo. While the Cape buffalo typically weighs between 425 kg and 870 kg (937 to 1,918 lb) and stands 1.0 to 1.7 meters (3.3 to 5.6 ft) at the shoulder, the Australian water buffalo, often referred to as "swamp buffalo," can be considerably larger in both body size and height. These feral Australian water buffalo, descendants of those introduced from Indonesia, have developed longer, wider, and heavier horns and can reach significant sizes, with some individuals exceeding the typical weight and length of the Cape buffalo. In comparison, the Cape buffalo is stockier and more powerfully built, but the Australian water buffalo surpasses it in overall size and mass."

Stopping a Australian water buffalo charge head-on up close with a handgun (454 Casull) is impressive. Australian water buffalo do kill people.

 

[Carnivore hunter]

Really? If he was killed, how do you know what happened to him? Was the killing witnessed by anyone but a bear? Do you know for sure the hunter didn't die of hypothermia (VERY common ... ask me how I know!) and bear just cleaned up the litter? It is more likely I'd get struck by lightning when hunting/fishing than attacked by a bear but I'm not wearing a helmet and dragging around a ground wire.

He was killed by a brown bear because wildlife biologists, you know those people they call "scientists" and law enforcement/homicide proved with evidence at the scene it was a fatal bear attack. He was bitten with a lethal bite on his skull that crushed his skull. The forensic evidence clearly proved it. There are many links to his death that go into greater detail.

I don't need to hear a burglar break into my house. My dogs would make enough noise to wake Helen Keller. Anyway, I live in Canada. Home intrusion is rare enough here to make national news when/if it happens.

You can't take your dogs everywhere you go. There are many places you go where your dogs won't be there by your side to alert you. In Canada, you also can't defend yourself even during a home invasion or you'll be prosecuted. You also can't own handguns in Canada. The reason why you're so against handguns for hunting isn't because you think they aren't effective, it's because you're just mad and jealous you can't own them so you try to justify your bias against them by clutching onto your rifle. You might not even be able to own rifles soon in Canada with the gun confiscation going on. Then you'll be jealous of rifle hunters saying rifles can't stop a charge. You're just bitter and grumpy.

My 357 did not save my life. Subadult grizzly wouldn't get off the trail when I was riding out after fishing all day.

So, your 357 magnum did save you and you're glad you had it on you. Better to have it then not have it. You were safer with a handgun than without. You're just mad now that the Canadian govt has taken away your right to own handguns so you try to take your anger out on people here who support hand guns. Don't take your anger out of me, take it out on the Canadian government who took your handguns away and don't even want you defending yourself during a home invasion.

So I stripped off my wading belt, dropped my waders to knees, upholstered the 357, and put a warning shot off her port bow. She heard that and gathered the cubs but still couldn't see us. I grabbed the white PVC tube for my rod and waved that in the air. She turned and went back downriver. I put the pistol away, pulled up my waders, finished stringing the rod, and fished for the rest of the day. I walked out six miles in the dark with handgun in the daypack with waders, boots, and tackle (good thing too as I fell in the creek).

Good thing you had that 357 mag handgun on you. It saved your life. You were able to use it wisely and warned that bear and gave it a heads up. Better than blowing it kisses and exchanging pleasantries.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Above, Daisy posted a couple links of data collected over the years of handguns that have been effective in killing bears...

Handgun Defenses Against Bear Attacks - 170 Documented Incidents, 98% Effective

There are now 170 documented cases, with 146 of those cases where handguns only are fired in defense against bear attacks. Handguns are effective 98% of the time.

www.ammoland.com

Defense Against Bears with Pistols: 97% Success rate, 37 Incidents

Using a pistol to defend against bear attacks seems to be a viable option.

www.ammoland.com

What a bunch of enabler bullshit! The guy's "documented" sources are flakey ... and I'm being generous. I guess my second incident warning off the sow with cubs using a sound shot from my 357 classifies as a "successful defense with a handgun" simply because I fired a round. Forget that I had absolutely no intention of hitting the bear. An air horn would have worked just as well. This is getting stupid.

 

[Carnivore hunter]

What a bunch of enabler bullshit! The guy's "documented" sources are flakey ... and I'm being generous. I guess my second incident warning off the sow with cubs using a sound shot from my 357 classifies as a "successful defense with a handgun" simply because I fired a round. Forget that I had absolutely no intention of hitting the bear. An air horn would have worked just as well. This is getting stupid.

This has nothing to do with handguns being effective to you. You need to start being honest. The reason why you are hyper defensive against handguns is because the Canadian government took your handguns away from you and your bitter and jealous of those who get to own handguns and hunt with them. You really wish you could hunt with and own handguns.

Don't hate the player. Hate the game. You need to direct your jealousy, resentment and envy at the Canadian government and not people on here.

 

[Scott CWO]

Dear Mr @Carnivore hunter. As someone who has hunted DG in Africa several times; achieved the Big 5; witnessed the taking of the Big 5 by handgun; guided for 35 years in North America from September through January each year, including 20 years in Alaska for brown bears each May, with clients using all types of weaponry, including handguns, bows and rifles; perhaps you will allow me to further comment on your opinions and videos that you posted?

In addition to the above, my best friend, Jim, is one of the most experienced handgun hunters in the world. I personally guided him on the 10’3” bear, pictured. I also watched and backed him up when he killed his elephant and buffalo in Tanzania in 2023, both one-shot kills. He also took a leopard by handgun on that same safari but I was not in the blind with him and the PH. Jim also shot PG on that safari with both handguns and a rifle. He attempted a hippo with a handgun but the hippo had to be finished with a rifle. I will be with Jim and my son in Tanzania in 2027, when they will split a full bag. I will be with him in Cameroon in 2028 for LDE and western savanna buffalo.

Jim and I completely agree that any animal on earth can be taken with a proper handgun IF conditions are right. On the other hand, we both completely agree that there is nothing more effective than a proper DG bolt rifle or a double rifle for hunting and following up wounded game. To hunt DG with a handgun requires a lot of experience and is not for everyone. Following up wounded game with any handgun puts you at a disadvantage versus a proper rifle for that task. Period. Contrary to popular opinion, a properly tuned bolt rifle is very fast. On my Tanzanian lion hunt in 2023, I fired three shots from my bolt rifle in under three seconds with two of them being lethal hits. Try that with a 500 S&W or even a 44 Rem Mag. The recoil makes it impossible. When Jim heard my shots from a distance, he assumed that my PH must have fired one of the shots but he did not.

As I said in an earlier post, I don’t always carry a sidearm and never have in Africa. Carrying a PROPER sidearm as an emergency backup plan is fine and recommend if you are alone. I would want one if my rifle became inoperable or if a DG animal got me down on the ground. If primarily rifle hunting, what do I consider to be a proper sidearm? Well, it certainly would NOT be a big clunky 44 Rem Mag, a 500 S&W or a 500 Linebaugh. Those are a primary hunting handgun, not something for a backup plan when crap hits the fan. I would agree with Phil Shoemaker on a 357 Mag wheel gun or a 9mm or 10mm semiautomatic pistol. Both are much easier to carry and much more handy with less recoil for getting off multiple shots, as Phil explained.

 

[Rafiki]

Not a handgun and not a buffalo but I did stop and inbound grouse with a shotgun a matter of feet before the collision; not enough left for soup.

 

[Doug Hamilton]

They're dumb not to.

Alaskan hunters hunt alone around coastal brown bears and polar bears, most of them have sidearms.

And that was based on your vast experience with African dangerous game. I'm guessing you don't gave any on North America either.

Personally, I carry a .44 mag when I'm fishing in grizzly and moose country, but I don't when I'm hunting. If you can't kill it with a .300 Win Mag, a handgun is not going to help. I don't care how many Jungle Jim movies you've watched.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

View attachment 719640View attachment 719642

Dear Mr @Carnivore hunter. As someone who has hunted DG in Africa several times; achieved the Big 5; witnessed the taking of the Big 5 by handgun; guided for 35 years in North America from September through January each year, including 20 years in Alaska for brown bears each May, with clients using all types of weaponry, including handguns, bows and rifles; perhaps you will allow me to further comment on your opinions and videos that you posted?

In addition to the above, my best friend, Jim, is one of the most experienced handgun hunters in the world. I personally guided him on the 10’3” bear, pictured. I also watched and backed him up when he killed his elephant and buffalo in Tanzania in 2023, both one-shot kills. He also took a leopard by handgun on that same safari but I was not in the blind with him and the PH. Jim also shot PG on that safari with both handguns and a rifle. He attempted a hippo with a handgun but the hippo had to be finished with a rifle. I will be with Jim and my son in Tanzania in 2027, when they will split a full bag. I will be with him in Cameroon in 2028 for LDE and western savanna buffalo.

Jim and I completely agree that any animal on earth can be taken with a proper handgun IF conditions are right. On the other hand, we both completely agree that there is nothing more effective than a proper DG bolt rifle or a double rifle for hunting and following up wounded game. To hunt DG with a handgun requires a lot of experience and is not for everyone. Following up wounded game with any handgun puts you at a disadvantage versus a proper rifle for that task. Period. Contrary to popular opinion, a properly tuned bolt rifle is very fast. On my Tanzanian lion hunt in 2023, I fired three shots from my bolt rifle in under three seconds with two of them being lethal hits. Try that with a 500 S&W or even a 44 Rem Mag. The recoil makes it impossible. When Jim heard my shots from a distance, he assumed that my PH must have fired one of the shots but he did not.

As I said in an earlier post, I don’t always carry a sidearm and never have in Africa. Carrying a PROPER sidearm as an emergency backup plan is fine and recommend if you are alone. I would want one if my rifle became inoperable or if a DG animal got me down on the ground. If primarily rifle hunting, what do I consider to be a proper sidearm? Well, it certainly would NOT be a big clunky 44 Rem Mag, a 500 S&W or a 500 Linebaugh. Those are a primary hunting handgun, not something for a backup plan when crap hits the fan. I would agree with Phil Shoemaker on a 357 Mag wheel gun or a 9mm or 10mm semiautomatic pistol. Both are much easier to carry and much more handy with less recoil for getting off multiple shots, as Phil explained.

Thanks for that, Scott. Unfortunately, I don't believe this guy can be educated. Obviously, hunting with a handgun is apples and oranges different from using one for self defense.

Interesting re your story about shooting the lion with three rounds from a bolt action cycled in less than three seconds. I don't know exactly how long it took me to put two bullets into a charging gemsbuck at less than thirty yards but it certainly was no more than three seconds and a third round was cycled by the time the gemsbuck piled up maybe fifteen yards past me. Glad to read someone who can confirm the "impossibility" of rapid firing a bolt action. Curious if you cycled your rifle from the shoulder? I'm pretty sure I did not ... because I never do. Rifle is cradled against my waist with elbow while I work the bolt, then remounted for followup. Which of your three bullets was non-lethal? First?

 

[edward]

oh well didnt want to brag but,

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

oh well didnt want to brag but,

When I was 14, I ran to where I was between a woodchuck and its hole. It wanted to naw its way through me but my size 10 right boot kept kicking it on its every attempt. After around 10 boots to its head, Mr. Woody rolled over dead.

My father had witnessed by foolhardiness. When I walked over to the road where dad stood, all he said was, "Boy, if that thing would have bit you, you'd need rabies shots!"

Wisdom is gained from listening to others more experianced, or by doing dumb things.
Now I face those fat hole diggers apprpriately armed, with a S&W M&P .22 Magnum.

PS: The chucks below were shot at 50 and 60 yards. Why let then get any closer

 

[Daisy]

I will admit that I have zero experience in hunting DG or stopping a charge in Africa. But I do have over 50 years of hunting with a handgun, both revolvers and single shots and know the capabilities of a handgun.

When people have the idea that a handgun is a capable weapon to stop an animal I ask them if they can hit a tennis ball as it is bouncing towards them after being thrown. That tennis ball represents the brain of an animal what you are going to have to hit to stop an adrenaline filled animal that is intent on doing you harm.

Turns out If you dig into data I posted you don’t have to hit cns to survive a bear charge. Most don’t. Of course that’s what you want, and has been the prevailing thought for years. But the data shows just shooting them repeatedly is enough to escape a bear attack.

 

[Daisy]

View attachment 719640View attachment 719642

Dear Mr @Carnivore hunter. As someone who has hunted DG in Africa several times; achieved the Big 5; witnessed the taking of the Big 5 by handgun; guided for 35 years in North America from September through January each year, including 20 years in Alaska for brown bears each May, with clients using all types of weaponry, including handguns, bows and rifles; perhaps you will allow me to further comment on your opinions and videos that you posted?

In addition to the above, my best friend, Jim, is one of the most experienced handgun hunters in the world. I personally guided him on the 10’3” bear, pictured. I also watched and backed him up when he killed his elephant and buffalo in Tanzania in 2023, both one-shot kills. He also took a leopard by handgun on that same safari but I was not in the blind with him and the PH. Jim also shot PG on that safari with both handguns and a rifle. He attempted a hippo with a handgun but the hippo had to be finished with a rifle. I will be with Jim and my son in Tanzania in 2027, when they will split a full bag. I will be with him in Cameroon in 2028 for LDE and western savanna buffalo.

Jim and I completely agree that any animal on earth can be taken with a proper handgun IF conditions are right. On the other hand, we both completely agree that there is nothing more effective than a proper DG bolt rifle or a double rifle for hunting and following up wounded game. To hunt DG with a handgun requires a lot of experience and is not for everyone. Following up wounded game with any handgun puts you at a disadvantage versus a proper rifle for that task. Period. Contrary to popular opinion, a properly tuned bolt rifle is very fast. On my Tanzanian lion hunt in 2023, I fired three shots from my bolt rifle in under three seconds with two of them being lethal hits. Try that with a 500 S&W or even a 44 Rem Mag. The recoil makes it impossible. When Jim heard my shots from a distance, he assumed that my PH must have fired one of the shots but he did not.

As I said in an earlier post, I don’t always carry a sidearm and never have in Africa. Carrying a PROPER sidearm as an emergency backup plan is fine and recommend if you are alone. I would want one if my rifle became inoperable or if a DG animal got me down on the ground. If primarily rifle hunting, what do I consider to be a proper sidearm? Well, it certainly would NOT be a big clunky 44 Rem Mag, a 500 S&W or a 500 Linebaugh. Those are a primary hunting handgun, not something for a backup plan when crap hits the fan. I would agree with Phil Shoemaker on a 357 Mag wheel gun or a 9mm or 10mm semiautomatic pistol. Both are much easier to carry and much more handy with less recoil for getting off multiple shots, as Phil explained.

Great post. Thanks for all that.

Not speaking of Africa. You say you don’t always carry a handgun, but then later say you certainly would always like one if rifle not available. Why then would you not always carry one?

I would never drop my rifle to use a handgun. But if in tent at night, taking a pee, or getting mauled a handgun would give me some defense. I never hunt without a sidearm where legal.

 

[Betterinthebush]

oh well didnt want to brag but,

Ahh..! The venerable whistle pig.