Another large caliber thread .404 or .416

[cpr0312]

Oh yeah and thanks for the info and insights

 

[Desperatezulu]

Hi Phil,
Not to shoot down your experience but some of what you say below contradicts a lot of expert opinion and experience, so your bad experience reloading the Rigby may be an exception to the rule, rather than the rule... I raise this merely to balance your criticism of the Rigby

If you're not a hand loader, the .416 Rigby as already mentioned is brutally expensive. If you are a hand loader, it's still not cheap as brass is quite expensive, though easily obtained from Hornady. I personally did not like loading the Rigby. In spite of Mike's sharp rebuke that I'm sure I'll earn, the brass design is poor in my opinion. It has a ridiculously small sharp angled shoulder which easily collapses if there's the slightest friction between bullet and brass during bullet seating.

404 brass is likely to be equally expensive and probably harder to find than the Rigby. Norma makes Rigby brass and is generally widely available.
The Rigby shoulder design is regarded as one of the best in its class and 100 years ahead of its time (with respect to your opinion to the contrary).
I have heard of (rare) people collapsing the shoulder during resizing due to insufficient lube (this can happen to any caliber) but never during bullet seating. If it collapses easily during seating as you say, then with respect, something is being done incorrectly.
I find the Rigby very easy to reload for, great case life (with Norma and Hornady cases) and very accurate for a big bore.

If criticism has to be levelled at the Rigby, it's hard to get away from the case being overly fat (reducing mag capacity) and it is an inefficient powder 'user'. But then again, no-one ever bought a big bore to save money!

Back on topic, I have a straight-stocked CZ 416 and I have been delighted with it! In the shoot out between the 404 and 416 Rig, the pros and cons are so marginal that the choice probably comes down to what's available at the time and whether the rifle with the sales tag on it tugs at your heart strings.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

@Desperatezulu, my criticism is a light one. The shoulder collapsing only happened to me during bullet seating. I've never lubed the necks during bullet seating, only during resizing. The problem is if the necks have any dust left in them, say from being cleaned in a tumbler, there is enough friction between bullet and neck that the neck will collapse. I could show you pics if I still had them of this happening. The solution to this is easy, you just give the inside of the neck a thorough brushing.

I do stand corrected on the price of factory ammo. I rarely these days pick up a box of anything, can't remember last time I did. But I looked it up, basically the same cost.

In the end I still prefer the smaller case of the .404J I believe. I prefer a full or nearly full case. With the Rigby and a full case, you will get much more velocity for certain, but you also get the recoil that comes with that. Maybe if I had backed of a few grains I would have still had enough fill to not be concerned and a more reasonable recoil?

Again my criticism of the Rigby is a light one and more of a preference for the .404J. The Rigby earned a great reputation and there's a reason for that.

 

[Desperatezulu]

I've never lubed a case neck before bullet seating either and never had an issue. Maybe you had a slightly oversize bullet/undersize neck or maybe the chamfering wasn't great. But all good.

In the end I still prefer the smaller case of the .404J I believe. I prefer a full or nearly full case. With the Rigby and a full case, you will get much more velocity for certain, but you also get the recoil that comes with that. Maybe if I had backed of a few grains I would have still had enough fill to not be concerned and a more reasonable recoil?.

I hear you on the case fill - fortunately our slower powders here in SA are pretty bulky, so getting a reasonable case fill (>95%) for a reasonable velocity of 2350-2400 is possible with the Rigby. More velocity than this I do not want, that I do know for sure!
I agree that the Jeff is more efficient and less of a kicker. Overall not enough between them to choose using a scientific argument!

 

[Rob404]

First of all I love my 375HH but I wanted to own a 404J but didn't have a ton of money to spend so I looked on line and bought a Nice used CZ375HH, heavy caliber rifles are less used so round counts are usually low,I then had the rifle sent to CZs custom shop for a re-barrel and magazine and bolt face modification.I also went for open sights and a barrel band and a Mercury reducer in the stock.I didn't opted for a lot of custom bells and whistles and wound up with just a working mans Jeff. The rifle performs beautifully and is dead nuts accurate. The money I saved was put into a set off Kwik release mounts and a nice Leuplod

 

[cpr0312]

Thanks for all the comments guys! Lots to think about. But seems there is no bad choice between a .416 Rigby and a .404 Jeff

 

[lwaters]

I always use the deburring tool inside the case mouth before seating the bullet. If I don't do this I have had the shoulder move back even on a 270.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

I always use the deburring tool inside the case mouth before seating the bullet. If I don't do this I have had the shoulder move back even on a 270.

Since my experience with the Rigby I now always brush the inside of the necks on all my calibers. I'd never seen that before loading the Rigby, but it was the problem. Got the advice on another forum from a guy who had seen the same.

 

[stug]

I lube the neck with graphite when sizing. Usually a bit left of there when seating.

 

[AZDAVE]

I think you just need a custom double built, with the right barrel a 404 Jeff and the left a 416 rigby. Not the most practical but would be very cool

 

[Rob404]

I think you just need a custom double built, with the right barrel a 404 Jeff and the left a 416 rigby. Not the most practical but would be very cool

Maybe a 375HH on the Left and a 404Jeff on the Right would even be cooler

 

[Rule 303]

Since my experience with the Rigby I now always brush the inside of the necks on all my calibers. I'd never seen that before loading the Rigby, but it was the problem. Got the advice on another forum from a guy who had seen the same.

The one and only time I pushed the shoulder back on the 416 Rigby was when I was using the seating die to crimp. I now use a Lee Factory Crimp die and no problems.

 

[Gert Odendaal]

404 Jeffery versus .416 Rigby debate:

Some opinions by hunters on different forums:

The 'advantage' to the 404Jeffery was that it didn't need a true magnum length action to function. An opened to H&H length standard action would suit. It’s kind of interesting that the 404Jeffery probably did a vast amount more work in Africa than the 416Rigby ... but the later caught the attention of modern hunters to a greater extent.

A standard length ex mil 98 Mauser is suitable for using to build a 404 and this brings it within the buildability of every enthusiasts budget. Regarding this point: It is not every gunsmith that is capable in making a big bore cycles and feed without jamming the round into the chamber..or causing the rounds to jump out of the action...

The bottom line is you can build a 404 on a std. action and the .416 Rigby must be on a full size magnum action and that makes the Rigby a larger rifle. However my 404 is built on a full size magnum action.

The original specs for the Jeff was a 400 or 410 at about 2150, to match the 450/400 in double rifles. That's with nice low pressures, and it'll do all you need.

The fact that a 404 can more easily be built on the standard length action more than likely accounts for why it was so widely used in Africa. And the sufficiency of a 400gn bullet at the Kynoch velocities giving milder recoil in lighter rifles.

The 404 can get significantly higher velocities than is needed for DG, 2300- 2400fps and at reasonably low pressures, so on that basis is the 416 redundant in as far as DG NEED is concerned.( Von Gruff.)

The 404 was Africa’s darling for one reason, and that is because FN made utilitarian rifles and the Game Departments purchased many of them with large amounts of ammo, later sold them off to the public although many still remain in game departments such as Tanzania where you still see a few rough FN in that calibre...Cheap cost, ammo ability and a calibre that did the job made the .404 popular.(Ray Atkinson)

The 416 never was widely used nor accepted, but was made popular by such scribes as Hemingway and Rourke, and a few very well-known PHs later picked up on it and its fame spread. Its fame is mostly in the minds and hearts of the nostalgic American Sportsman that believed it was widely accepted in Africa...This does not mean that it isn't a wonderful calibre, it is a very effective calibre and, in effect, is a 416 Wby without a belt or visa versa.( Ray Atkinson)

They are both capable of more, the Jeff a little, the Rigby quite a bit, but it's not needed and not recommended to stay within CIP or SAAMI pressure specs. The Rigby is capable of 416 Wby loads.

The Rigby was loaded with 400 at 2400 or 410 at 2370(+/-).


Conclusion:

In essence according to numerous hunter/rifle builders ect:

When having a 404 Jeffery or a .416 Rigby rifle in your hands the following statement is what really highlights the difference between a 404 Jeffery and a .416 Rigby. In all other mentioned differences there will be a trade-off between the 404 Jeffery and the .416 Rigby:


The one big difference between the .416 Rigby and the 404 Jeffery:

(According to me)

Today, 404 Jeffery rifles are built by competent gunsmiths on M98 military actions and available in gun shops worldwide, as is the re-loading components. According to me you will not be able to build .416 Rigby on a standard Obendorf military (thumb hole) action without creating a possibility of a malfunction or broken action due to the need of removing a lot of metal from the action. Although Harry Selby had such rifles build by The Rigby Rifle Company for him, not a general gunsmith ….

According to Jerry Kuhnhausen, author of The Mauser M91through M98 Bolt Actions; A Shop Manual, only a select few actions will be able to convert to a magnum action for big bore rifle builds.

Mauser Actions to be considered in building big bore conversion rifles:

Standard Obendorf M89 action (Banner marked, highly desirable)

M1924/30Venezuelan M98/Standard (highly desirable)

M1908 Brazilian M98/Standard DWM (Highly desirable for custom building rifles)

M24 Mexican FN Belgium M98( Highly desirable for custom building rifles)

VZ24 Brno Czechoslovakia M98 Standard (Highly desirable for custom build rifles)
There maybe a few more action types for use in custom building rifle build projects, above mentioned are the primary ones.

The biggest difference between the .416 Rigby and the 404 Jeffery is the manufacturing process/building custom rifles /actions. All other differences are marginal.

 

[Rule 303]

I will differ from you. All those rifle you list are opened up to magnum, length. 375H&H case length 2.85 ", cart lgh 3.60" 404J case length 2.87", Cart lgh 3.53", 416 Rigby case length 2.90", cart lgh3.75". Now as far as I know the 375H&H is said to require a magnum length action or an action opened up to accommodate the length. Harry Selby's 416 Rigby was an opened up standard length action and was not built by Rigby for him. His obtained this from another person when his current rifle was out of action.

 

[Gert Odendaal]

Rule303 , valid point, I did point out " According to me" my personal point of view , since I opened up actions to accommodate 404 Jeffery caliber rifles. I would not try to open up a standard M98 action to try an accommodate a .416 Rigby caliber, it just is not safe , you need to remove too much metal and you require a much bigger magazine box as well....it just does not make sense to build such a rifle on a standard action, there are magnum action available or just purchase a CZ .416 Rigby factory build rifle..it is the most sense-able route to go.
This is why I pointed out that the primary difference between a 404 Jeffery caliber and a .416 Rigby caliber rife is in the building process regarding the action and making it feed...

 

[Rule 303]

Gert, though I agree with you in reference to the machining required of a standard M98 action to accommodate these cartridges, to me non are overly safe to do. The best example that is readily available is the Mark X Mauser actions. have a look at how little metal is supporting the lower bolt lug on their 375H&H. Also the Rigby, in its intended velocity range, is a low pressure cartridge, probably why people have gotten away with opening them up to run the Rigby case. Also the 404 has an exceedingly long neck and the bullets are seated somewhat deeper than in most other cartridges.

Don't get me wrong if the 404J had of been available for the same price as my CZ550 in 416 Rigby, I would of had a very hard choice, probably would of come down to the flip of a coin.

Meant to add. Why would you bother opening up a M98. Just get the Rem 700 they use for the 375H&H/RUM/338Lapua. The Mag box is already opened for length and width. First 2 for the 404J and the last for the 416Rigby and plenty of metal still there.

 

[Gert Odendaal]

Rule303, now the scenario changes as soon as you are living in South Africa. In America there is no need to build a 404 Jeffery or a .416 Rigby..you just pick up a phone and buy it on-line ..any gun component you desire, any brand you probably can mention...
In South Africa, our Rand currency is so weak not many hunters can afford to purchase rifles from abroad , or barrels, or gun parts..a few years back I bought my 404 Jeffery and had to revert to fire forming .375 H&H Magnum brass to fit in my 404 Jeffery since I could not get hold of 404 Jeffery brass that time..now, 404 Jeffery brass and components is readily available... we have to make do with what we have..hence the tendency to use these military Mauser actions to build calibers possible to fit in these actions, keeping the safety component in mind....I only have experience/know how to open up a military Mauser action to fit a 404 Jeffery, I got this knowledge from a good friend /mentor and gunsmith par excellence , Johan Greyling of JS Gunsmithing ...That is why I pointed out I will not consider opening up a military Mauser 98 action to fit a .416 Rigby...according to me it is unsafe, not worth the trouble you may reap yourself if trying it....
I noticed a few 404 Jeffery rifles opened up by gunsmiths that I surely will not hunt/shoot with...since the procedures they used has flaws in...instead of opening up to the back they endeavored to open up to the front of the action...it really is a complicated procedure to perform..there are a few procedures you need to perform correctly to make a conversion build in a 404 Jeffery caliber feed and cycle fast and correctly using dummies that are as heavy as a round ..it needs to be extracted and thrown clear at extremely fast cycling speed...hence my opinion that the difference between the two calibres , 404 Jeffery and the .416 Rigby is negligible when shooting /hunt with it...but huge when building it ...procedural wise...

 

[tomahawker]

Finally found a lefty 404j. Should be in Tues. Gonna be hell on starlings

 

[IvW]

Both are great African hunting calibers.

I am in the process of converting one of my ZKK602 375 H&H rifles (pop up peep site version) to 40 cal. I decided on the 404 Jeff. Apart from the fact that it will take one more in the mag when compared to 416 Rigby, I prefer the 404 Jeff. I also have a 500 Jeff on the same ZKK 602 action, so they will compliment each other very well.

I will then have DG rifles in a 375 H&H, 404 Jeff and 500 Jeff all on the same ZKK 602 actions.

 

[Ray B]

IvW- Keeping the action the same on any rifle to be used in potentially very stressful situation is a VERY good idea.