Another large caliber thread .404 or .416

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Charles,

If you're not a hand loader, the .416 Rigby as already mentioned is brutally expensive. If you are a hand loader, it's still not cheap as brass is quite expensive, though easily obtained from Hornady. I personally did not like loading the Rigby. In spite of Mike's sharp rebuke that I'm sure I'll earn, the brass design is poor in my opinion. It has a ridiculously small sharp angled shoulder which easily collapses if there's the slightest friction between bullet and brass during bullet seating.

It is a massive case and in modern rifles can be loaded with a 400gr pill to 2500fps or so. But it's a harsh recoil if you load it to such. I didn't care for that amount of recoil and I'm incapable of not loading a cartridge to it's potential. Just annoys the heck out of me to think there's a significant amount of case room sitting empty. I'm sure there's plenty of reason for the massive case design going back to the days of rather temp sensitive powder. But there's no need for this anymore with modern powders.

I much prefer the case design for a .404J. It has a proper shoulder and I can't imagine it would suffer from the collapsing version that I "enjoyed" when I first started loading the Rigby. Fully loaded the .404J gives all the power you'll need and without the empty case space.

So for me it's the .404J. No offense to those that shoot the .416 Rigby, it has certainly earned a great reputation.

 

[Rule 303]

I would be happy with the Rigby or the Jeff. I bought the Rigby as it, been, the CZ550 was over Aust $2500 cheaper than the CZ550 in the 404. I was having a hard time deciding prior to that. Either will do well. I would say get a CX. You really do need a proper magnum length action for the 404, 416Rigby and Rem and the 416 Ruger, hack spit. Why. Well the Jeff case is damned near the same length as the Rigby case and the Rem is a full length 375H&H improved case. Why the magnum length action for the Ruger. Try stuffing a mono metal bullet in it with enough powder to get the job done in a standard length action. Things are going to get a little cramped. That or do what Ruger should of done, use the 338 Norma case and neck it up.

Bertram also make 416 Rigby brass as do Rhino and Kynock, well the last two are made by Bertram with their headstamp on the case.

Do I regret getting the Rigby, No.

 

[siml]

@reedy0312 , you mentioned for elephant and hippo. I would go 416 rigby, has the better penetration.

PS...Wouldn't waste the $$$ on a double.

 

[cpr0312]

Thank you for the input guys!

 

[PeteG]

PS...Wouldn't waste the $$$ on a double.

Blasphemy!!!!

 

[cpr0312]

@Ray B , do you have one or both calibers? If so are they in CZ?

___________________________

Now that 404 brass and bullets are commonly available I prefer the 404 to the 416. My reasoning is:
1. Action and boltface are "near" standard - ie slight modification to a .532" boltface/extractor, & usual opening of standard length action.
2. Standard magnum diameter cases with shallow angle neck results in easy chambering and less adjustments to action
3. the 404 is .007" larger than the 416
4. Bullets of 350, 400 & 450 grains allow for multi-aspect hunting &
5, When loaded to similar pressures, there is virtually no difference in ballistics between the 404 & 416.

Both the 404 & 416 are available in the CZ 550.

 

[cpr0312]

Also curious what makes and models of the .404's and .416's do you guys have?

 

[spike.t]

i have an AHR in .404 i bought from them after looking on their site when it was mentioned on a thread here. never heard of them before that but had been thinking of getting a .404, so when i saw one in their for sale section had a bit of negotiation and it ended up in zambia. i have had 4 maybe 5 .416 rigbys over the years that paul built when he owned rigbys, but he sold my last one i had for me about 3 years ago. then had a what if i need one moments ....and a cz 550 with synthetic stock came up at holts auctioneers in their for sale section for rifles that hadnt sold in the auction. it was £525.00 tax paid and i phoned paul told him the price ,and he said it was way under trade value for him to get one in so i bought it. paul checked it when it was shipped to him and he said it didnt look like it had been fired since it left the factory.....so a bargain! i got paul to take the barrel down to 21 inches ,and check feeding and sights and all was good with that side of things.

 

[Ray B]

Also curious what makes and models of the .404's and .416's do you guys have?

I got LRich's Pre64 M70 404. For photos see page two of Classified Ads section. I just ordered the last box that Midway had of Swift 400 gr A-Frames to go with several boxes of Woodleigh 350 & 450 gr Weldcores. But I just tested some Oregon Trail lasercast bullets for sizing from .427" down to .423" and they sized well, so I have an order for a few boxes of these. by hunting season I expect to have put several hundred downrange.

 

[stug]

Mines in this thread https://www.africahunting.com/threads/3-gun-african-battery.23877/

It is made from an FN Mauser action, has an aperture sight only and a custom stock made by Von Gruff. Weighs 9.5lb all up. I haven't shot an animal with it yet, most of my hunting spots require a 200-300+ yds.

 

[Wheels]

i have an AHR in .404 i bought from them after looking on their site when it was mentioned on a thread here. never heard of them before that but had been thinking of getting a .404, so when i saw one in their for sale section had a bit of negotiation and it ended up in zambia. i have had 4 maybe 5 .416 rigbys over the years that paul built when he owned rigbys, but he sold my last one i had for me about 3 years ago. then had a what if i need one moments ....and a cz 550 with synthetic stock came up at holts auctioneers in their for sale section for rifles that hadnt sold in the auction. it was £525.00 tax paid and i phoned paul told him the price ,and he said it was way under trade value for him to get one in so i bought it. paul checked it when it was shipped to him and he said it didnt look like it had been fired since it left the factory.....so a bargain! i got paul to take the barrel down to 21 inches ,and check feeding and sights and all was good with that side of things.

Great deal on the CZ!

 

[cpr0312]

Yeah thats a good deal you got @spike.t !

 

[Hank2211]

Get both. I did, and have never regretted it, even though I never take both on the same hunting trip But one or the other always calls out to me . . . And that's the one which comes along.

The .404 is a Kilimanjaro, while the .416 is a Rigby Big Game.

As was said, there really is only one .416 . . . and that's a Rigby. The guys who have the other .416s will keep you up in camp telling you why their RUM or whatever is better than a Rigby. Those that have the Rigby will let you sleep, because they don't feel the need to defend their choice.

 

[larry4831]

@Ray B , do you have one or both calibers? If so are they in CZ?

___________________________

Now that 404 brass and bullets are commonly available I prefer the 404 to the 416. My reasoning is:
1. Action and boltface are "near" standard - ie slight modification to a .532" boltface/extractor, & usual opening of standard length action.
2. Standard magnum diameter cases with shallow angle neck results in easy chambering and less adjustments to action
3. the 404 is .007" larger than the 416
4. Bullets of 350, 400 & 450 grains allow for multi-aspect hunting &
5, When loaded to similar pressures, there is virtually no difference in ballistics between the 404 & 416.

Both the 404 & 416 are available in the CZ 550.

Plus, 404 Jeffrey..........it sounds African

 

[Ray B]

@Ray B , do you have one or both calibers? If so are they in CZ?

___________________________

Of the over .4" rifles I have just 2; the noted 404 Jeffery on a 1953 Model 70 and a 1996 Model 70 458 Win Mag. I had a CZ 550 in 404 ordered from the importer through the Hunter Education Instructor Program, but they declined to sell it to me at their stated price. I guess they figured someone at corporate office was giving too good a deal.

 

[Guy.G]

I went through this choice of a 416 rigby or 404 jeffery about twelve months ago, don't get me wrong I would like both. I decided on the 404 jeffery, because of the superior shoulder design. I went for a 1957 columbian mauser action, weibe bottom metal, lothar walther barrel, quather rib with express sights in a nice walnut stock. Should be finished in a month or so.

 

[Witold Krzyżanowski]

I went through this choice of a 416 rigby or 404 jeffery about twelve months ago, don't get me wrong I would like both. I decided on the 404 jeffery, because of the superior shoulder design. I went for a 1957 columbian mauser action, weibe bottom metal, lothar walther barrel, quather rib with express sights in a nice walnut stock. Should be finished in a month or so.

Very good idea Guy.G
Witlold

 

[375 Ruger Fan]

As was said, there really is only one .416 . . . and that's a Rigby. The guys who have the other .416s will keep you up in camp telling you why their RUM or whatever is better than a Rigby. Those that have the Rigby will let you sleep, because they don't feel the need to defend their choice.

My 375 Ruger is so much bang for the buck that I'm going to refer to it as a 375 Rugby (pronounced with a long "U") just because I can...........

I find this topic interesting. You can load a 375, either H&H or Rugby, up to produce 5,000 ft-lb of ME, more than enough to handle anything on the planet. The larger calibers aren't much more and standard loads are below 5,000 ft-lbs. So why do you need them? If you are a PH and need to stop a charge, okay get a big gun. I think it boils down to want, not need. And there is nothing wrong with that. Just like cars, I don't need a '68 Chevelle SS with a 396 V-8, but I want one.

 

[Spooksar]

I have a 404, a 416 Taylor and 2 416 Rigby's, I much prefer the 416 Rigby that I have in a CZ 550.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Also curious what makes and models of the .404's and .416's do you guys have?

I have a M70 in .300RUM at AHR being converted to .404J. If you can find one for a decent price as I did, you can have a .404J for a bit less than buying a new CZ in the same caliber. But finding a M70 in any of the RUM calibers is a challenge. Quite a few hunters of Africa swiped these up for this project but in general Winchester did not make the M70 in the RUM calibers for very long.