Alec Baldwin Movie Set Accident

[sgt_zim]

I saw the same statute. In my earlier post I referenced an article that contained what the instructions to juries would be. The instructions to a jury in New Mexico would be that to convict of involuntary manslaughter criminal negligence would have to be alleged by the state and the jury would have to buy in to it. It is not at all clear to me that Mr Baldwin, if charged with involuntary manslaughter, would be convicted.

It would ultimately come down to the view of 12 jurors as to the meaning and application of "or without due caution and circumspection."

Political considerations aside, he did not act with due caution and circumspection.

In Texas, it is illegal to even point a gun at another human, unless you are acting in self defense. And it doesn't matter whether the gun is loaded or not.

If the filming location had been located in Odessa or Midland or Abilene, I don't have any doubt that he would get convicted. in NM??? All bets are off.

 

[ducmarc]

I'd be very interested who's fingerprints are on the live rounds in the gun, or were in the gun.

Baldwin's

 

[sgt_zim]

Only difference is in this case there is a paid “professional” there to oversee safety

That would hold water if we were talking about children. Baldwin is, allegedly, a competent adult.

 

[npm352]

I just have to comment....maybe something is wrong with me, but when I hear people talking about the armorer, and the "Hollywood gun safety rules," whose fingerprints are on the gun or bullets, etc, it kind of sits wrong with me. While I think those are valid questions, the person holding the gun is ultimately responsible for what happens with the gun. It is ridiculous that anyone other than the shooter is being blamed. Sure, clearly they did some stupid shit, but the shooter is the person responsible. If my hunting buddy tells me his gun is unloaded when he hands it to me crossing a fence and I put the muzzle on his face and pull the trigger and it goes "boom," that is on me, not him.

On a movie set you are pointing guns at people and firing. Maybe these anti-gun assholes should learn how firearms function and learn the difference in fake rounds and real rounds....and learn to take ownership of what they do.

Putting this on anyone but the person holding the gun goes against everything I have learned and practiced regarding firearm safety.

 

[BigSteve57]

Baldwin's

I have not seen this. How do you know this?

 

[CJW]

I just have to comment....maybe something is wrong with me, but when I hear people talking about the armorer, and the "Hollywood gun safety rules," whose fingerprints are on the gun or bullets, etc, it kind of sits wrong with me. While I think those are valid questions, the person holding the gun is ultimately responsible for what happens with the gun. It is ridiculous that anyone other than the shooter is being blamed. Sure, clearly they did some stupid shit, but the shooter is the person responsible. If my hunting buddy tells me his gun is unloaded when he hands it to me crossing a fence and I put the muzzle on his face and pull the trigger and it goes "boom," that is on me, not him.

On a movie set you are pointing guns at people and firing. Maybe these anti-gun assholes should learn how firearms function and learn the difference in fake rounds and real rounds....and learn to take ownership of what they do.

Putting this on anyone but the person holding the gun goes against everything I have learned and practiced regarding firearm safety.

I don't think a single person here is saying Baldwin isn't at fault in the way you describe. We're only speculating about who else will be found culpable and to what degree be it criminally or civilly. If you are the or one of the hired, trusted, professional's in charge and this happens under your watch, you are at least somewhat to blame. We just aren't sure who is responsible for what.

For example, the armorer reportedly wasn't in the building when the shooting happened. Now is it possible that when she walked out the gun was indeed unloaded and "cold"? Was the gun for some reason loaded by someone else after she walked out? Only an investigation will tell us for sure. We may find out that the negligence was even worse than we think.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

That would hold water if we were talking about children. Baldwin is, allegedly, a competent adult.

I agree with your second sentence. I guess we’ll see what happens when all the facts come out and the DA makes a decision.

I’m not defending Baldwin I just think people need to be a little more objective and think about how this may play out in court. Lot of factors involved and arguments that can be made on both sides.

 

[Bhfs300]

View attachment 433105

I am not the best photoshopper and this is a real bad job of copying a photo over another photo.
If he didn’t go on SNL would he be getting attacked for this?

 

[npm352]

I don't think a single person here is saying Baldwin isn't at fault in the way you describe. We're only speculating about who else will be found culpable and to what degree be it criminally or civilly. If you are the or one of the hired, trusted, professional's in charge and this happens under your watch, you are at least somewhat to blame. We just aren't sure who is responsible for what.

For example, the armorer reportedly wasn't in the building when the shooting happened. Now is it possible that when she walked out the gun was indeed unloaded and "cold"? Was the gun for some reason loaded by someone else after she walked out? Only an investigation will tell us for sure. We may find out that the negligence was even worse than we think.

I see what you are saying, but the problem is right in your answer. As soon as someone else is responsible for another person shooting and killing someone, everyone starts pointing fingers and nothing is learned.

Baldwin is 100% responsible for anything that comes out of the end of a gun while he is holding it. I wouldn't hunt with anyone who doesn't believe that.

These Hollywood assholes spend their lives telling us how us commoners should vote and think about issues in our country. If they are ostensibly smart enough to give me political advice somehow based on their status as famous people, then they are smart enough to sit through a firearm safety course. My ten-year-old took hunter safety at eight years old and did fine. She knows if she is handed a gun the first thing she needs to do after making sure it is pointed in a safe direction is to see if it is loaded or not. It is not unreasonable for an adult to know how the gun functions and what ammunition they put in it kills people and what ammo just goes "pop." These actors basically pay people to make their food, clean up after them and wipe their asses for them. That's fine. More power to them for being rich... but the attitude that somehow someone else can somehow be responsible or culpable for how they handle a firearm is insane.

 

[CBH Australia]

That would hold water if we were talking about children. Baldwin is, allegedly, a competent adult.

If it's been alleged it's yet to be proven.

Seems like it's questionable , might be a defence if he is not competent.

 

[npm352]

I don't think a single person here is saying Baldwin isn't at fault in the way you describe. We're only speculating about who else will be found culpable and to what degree be it criminally or civilly. If you are the or one of the hired, trusted, professional's in charge and this happens under your watch, you are at least somewhat to blame. We just aren't sure who is responsible for what.

For example, the armorer reportedly wasn't in the building when the shooting happened. Now is it possible that when she walked out the gun was indeed unloaded and "cold"? Was the gun for some reason loaded by someone else after she walked out? Only an investigation will tell us for sure. We may find out that the negligence was even worse than we think.

But yes...I do agree that what the court says about criminality and liability will not jive with the basic rules of gun safety...and that is what some are discussing here

 

[TroyF]

I just hope the truth comes out and everyone isn't pressured not to say the truth. I'm glad this didn't happen in ca.

 

[Newboomer]

True statement. "Accident" is a euphemism for carelessness or negligence, and absolves of culpability.

There are no accidents in life. There are acts of stupidity. If someone was not doing something stupid, it wouldn't have happened.

 

[CJW]

I see what you are saying, but the problem is right in your answer. As soon as someone else is responsible for another person shooting and killing someone, everyone starts pointing fingers and nothing is learned.

Baldwin is 100% responsible for anything that comes out of the end of a gun while he is holding it. I wouldn't hunt with anyone who doesn't believe that.

These Hollywood assholes spend their lives telling us how us commoners should vote and think about issues in our country. If they are ostensibly smart enough to give me political advice somehow based on their status as famous people, then they are smart enough to sit through a firearm safety course. My ten-year-old took hunter safety at eight years old and did fine. She knows if she is handed a gun the first thing she needs to do after making sure it is pointed in a safe direction is to see if it is loaded or not. It is not unreasonable for an adult to know how the gun functions and what ammunition they put in it kills people and what ammo just goes "pop." These actors basically pay people to make their food, clean up after them and wipe their asses for them. That's fine. More power to them for being rich... but the attitude that somehow someone else can somehow be responsible or culpable for how they handle a firearm is insane.

It sounds like you are looking for a cut and dry answer or claim of responsibility but this is far from a cut and dry situation as I tried to describe above. Ultimately yes, Baldwin is at the most fault in the eyes of responsible gun owners. We agree on that. That said, bringing real ammunition onto a set and shooting it out of guns that will later be pointed at others or even in another's direction is criminally insane if you ask me. So is anybody who knew about it without putting an end to it or even worse anyone who actually gave it their blessing. There is a chance that Baldwin may be in even bigger trouble than you originally hoped for.

I don't recall whether it has been mentioned or not but I believe I heard that in one rule book or another it is actually against the rules for an actor to check a gun after the armorer has handed it to them. As a responsible gun owner, no way in hell am I abiding by that if it is indeed a real gun. I'll work at McDonalds before I trust my life or anyone else's to that. Does that pertain to this case? I have no idea, but it is possibly just one more fly in the ointment to whomever is assigned to figure out this mess.

Again, nobody is saying that Mr. Baldwin couldn't have ultimately stopped this from happening. The gun being in his hand, he was the last line of defense. A gun safety class would have driven that point home.

 

[sgt_zim]

If it's been alleged it's yet to be proven.

Seems like it's questionable , might be a defence if he is not competent.

One of the finer points of law in American jurisprudence - adults are presumed to be competent. Incompetence must be demonstrated to a judge. This is pretty much the same in all state and federal courts.

 

[sgt_zim]

I agree with your second sentence. I guess we’ll see what happens when all the facts come out and the DA makes a decision.

I’m not defending Baldwin I just think people need to be a little more objective and think about how this may play out in court. Lot of factors involved and arguments that can be made on both sides.

No disagreement with any of that - I fully expect him to walk with no consequences. I'm not even sure he has the moral capacity to be scarred by what he did. I certainly wouldn't bet money on it.

 

[npm352]

It sounds like you are looking for a cut and dry answer or claim of responsibility but this is far from a cut and dry situation as I tried to describe above. Ultimately yes, Baldwin is at the most fault in the eyes of responsible gun owners. We agree on that. That said, bringing real ammunition onto a set and shooting it out of guns that will later be pointed at others or even in another's direction is criminally insane if you ask me. So is anybody who knew about it without putting an end to it or even worse anyone who actually gave it their blessing. There is a chance that Baldwin may be in even bigger trouble than you originally hoped for.

I don't recall whether it has been mentioned or not but I believe I heard that in one rule book or another it is actually against the rules for an actor to check a gun after the armorer has handed it to them. As a responsible gun owner, no way in hell am I abiding by that if it is indeed a real gun. I'll work at McDonalds before I trust my life or anyone else's to that. Does that pertain to this case? I have no idea, but it is possibly just one more fly in the ointment to whomever is assigned to figure out this mess.

Again, nobody is saying that Mr. Baldwin couldn't have ultimately stopped this from happening. The gun being in his hand, he was the last line of defense. A gun safety class would have driven that point home.

Definitely crazy. The situation is so sad and serious, but it is ironic that this guy paints gun owners as idiots when the concept of firearm safety is simple and second nature to most gun owners, and especially hunters.

Maybe a rule change can happen for the better. If I were king, I'd make the actors take gun safety and make it so they were openly and publicly seen as being the responsible person and checking it beforehand....even after other crew hands the weapon over and tells them the status....but I doubt that will happen. Seems like clarity is what they need but they are getting the opposite.

 

[npm352]

I do agree with others...as insane as it seems to responsible gun owners and hunters, Baldwin will walk free other than probably a confidential settlement with the girl's family to avoid civil court that we won't hear about.

 

[Newboomer]

Except the "professional" did not hand Baldwin the gun. She was required to be outside due to Covid restrictions. The Assistant Director handed him the gun and declared "Cold Gun" without checking it himself - Per the newspaper article I linked above.

The assistant director might be setting himself up to be the fall guy. Also, the gun was not rechecked by the Armorer after being stored in a safe during their lunch break.

Yes - a reasonable adult person with minimal firearms knowledge would still know to check the gun himself if planning to draw and point it at the camera operator.

Edit to add: Live ammo was indeed found on the set if I remember the news account correctly. Unbelievably stupid stuff was going on.

As many movies as Baldwin has made involving guns he knew full well to check it and not take someone's word for it. Why he didn't is the question. Almost looks like an intentional shooting. Something else that is bothering me: When Hutchyns was shot she said something about her stomach and the round was found in the director's shoulder. What kind of trajectory would cause that if the gun was fired by a normal sized person? Was she standing and the director sitting behind her? In the photos of the crime scene there were no cranes for cameras to be elevated. Hmm. Strange things happening.

 

[wesheltonj]

If it's been alleged it's yet to be proven.

Seems like it's questionable , might be a defence if he is not competent.

Competent is a very low bar. You have to very mentally ill.