A new break action single

[skydiver386]

Single shot options in the marketplace of notoriety in the past 20 years:

Thompson Contender break action single shot, mass marketed - Cancelled due to lack of demadn in 2000.

Dakota Model 10 falling block single shot - Dakota fell into bankruptcy 8 years ago because they couldn't make the math work in relation to demand at $6000 MSRP.

Ruger Number 1 falling block - Bill Ruger had control of his company and wanted a modern replica of the Gibbs Farquarson action. Bill lost money on every single one he made but he didn't care, it was his show and his company. The second he was no longer at the helm of the company, they discontinued the factory configurations. Over the subsequent years there have been Lipsey's exclusives for one distributor, purely meeting the niche demand at an MSRP of around $2500 or double what Bill Ruger was charging for them.

Luxus Arms Model 11 - Probably as close to your requirements of any semi-custom firearm that will ever be made. It was a break action, had bespoke options, a nice array of calibers, and stunning wood. They shuddered years ago because there wasn't enough demand for a break action at their $4000 pricepoint.

This thread has answered your question of why what you want doesn't exist. There isn't enough demand to keep the single shots that we deem "excellent for their purpose" going, much less to create a new offering for an unpleasant to shoot, overbuilt largebore alternative.

Don't hate me, hate the economics. I don't think your wish-list is going to get satisfied unless you get a custom gun built by a maker for over $15k just for your whims, but it will never enter broad production.

No hatred at all sir.

I completely understand that there would be slow, but steady demand for such a firearm, and I stated this in my original post.

The problem is that those familiar with European firearms immediately think "Kipplauf".

Those who grew up and started their hunting career in North America think "cheap single shot".

What I'm describing is neither. This is why it's so hard to get people to wrap their head around such a firearm. People assume their pre-conceived notions are what I'm describing.

I'm also fully and painfully aware of the past failures. I've actually owned 3 of the guns you listed, so I know why they failed. Please note that the idea of a break action single shot with fully interchangeable barrels is wildly popular IF properly executed. The T/C Encore and Contender pistol are proof that the concept is popular. The problem lies in the execution.

The Encore and Contender both started life as handguns, and their exposed hammers and uncomfortable stock design are why large calibers are not popular in these when configured as rifles. However they are so popular that several companies like EABCO, SSK, Bulberry, Match Grade Machine and others have based their entire business on manufacturing accessory barrels for these guns.

The TCR 83/87 was an entirely different firearm. THIS is somewhat the layout and concept I have in mind. I owned 3 of these at one time, and they are neither a lightweight Kipplauf, nor a monstrosity as some claim such a rifle must be.

The reason the TCR failed was NOT lack of demand for an interchangeable barrel firearm, as sales were brisk when the rifle was introduced. The execution of the TCR was the problem.

The TCR barrels that were initially advertised as being interchangeable were not, but instead had to be sent along with the frame back to the factory to be fitted. If another barrel was purchased at a later date, the frame along with the new barrel had to be sent to the factory yet again. Customers that were used to Thompson/Center firearms that sold interchangeable barrels in nearly every gun shop in North America in the 1970s and 1980s, were not willing to buy such a rifle. When this fact became widely known, sales fell off dramatically.

Of the three TCR reciever's and multiple barrels that I owned, none would lock up or fire. Once they were sent to the factory for fitting, they would not lock up or fire on the other 2 frames. What a mess. Demand was there, but quality control wasn't. A company that built it's entire name and reputation on interchangeable barrel firearms had a lemon on it's hands, and rapidly began to treat these guns as such.

Another issue with the TCR was the crossbolt safety with an additional button that had to be depressed before the crossbolt safety could be pushed. On the frames that I had none of the safeties could be depressed with less than 30 pounds of pressure as measured by a digital scale. Totally unworkable.

The basic design layout and interchangeable barrel concept are totally valid IMHO, but poorly executed by TC. You'll notice that the gun uses a monoblock construction similar to many doubles. The rifle was neither ugly, nor a monstrosity, but was fairly handsome to my eye. Remember, this same gun was available in calibers from .223, through 300 Win, and 12 gauge.

This is the full layout of the TCR rifle. Notice the drop at the comb and heel present in the factory stock. This along with a very thin wrist and poor trigger bow shape made them a poor choice in hard kicking calibers.

With several of the heavier barrels installed, these could weigh almost 9 pounds without optics. Hardly a Kipplauf, but entirely comfortable IF a proper stock design were installed.

IF and I repeat IF a company designed a rifle similar to this, with fully interchangeable barrels, it would sell. Will it outsell the Savage Axis at WalMart? No, but then again sales of double rifles are also slow in comparison.

 

[skydiver386]

You want to shoot a 460 Weatherby in a lightweight, kipplauf rifle?

I'm not even sure I'd want to see that...

Multiple times in this thread I have stated that I'm specifically NOT talking about a lightweight stalking rifle.

 

[rookhawk]

Multiple times in this thread I have stated that I'm specifically NOT talking about a lightweight stalking rifle.

Everyone understands you. We’re engineering what this looks like. You can’t have your cake and eat it too. It’s either a miserable, overbuilt beast, or it’s relatively light weight. To shoot the calibers you want, it would be a very heavy, crude, troublesome gun. If kept to kipplauf calibers, it’s been tried and failed many times.

Get a Parkwest model 10 traveler with two barrels, a small and medium bore. That’s the best option running, but will set you back $14k.

Respectfully, I’ve spent 30 years getting rid of my bad gun judgement of my 20s. I had Eabco contenders and encores. I think once you hold a sublime gun for its task, you no longer want compromise.

A break action do-all single shot is laden with compromises. Life’s too short to own ugly or heavy guns.

My perfect gun I’ve never owned, a Heym double in 470 with a set of 20 gauge barrels and a medium bore. (Never found the shotgun barrel model) A Dakota traveller 76 bolt gun in two barrels is pretty good too. A traveler 10 I’ve never owned, but a single caliber single shot model 10 is as good of a single shot as one can ever wish.

I’d convince you of the problems of your wish if you were in my workshop and I can show you how it would work and how much you’d hate it.

 

[AZDAVE]

As stated there we understand what you would like and are trying to help with setting the basis of the engineering and manufacturing specs that would be required to make your dream single shot a reality.

The tolerances have to be super tight to have the rifle accurate if you have ever smoke fit or watched someone fit a set of barrels for a custom single shot or double rifle along with shotgun barrels. You would see very quickly why manufacture require the action to come back and the subsequent barrels fitted to that specific frame. Even the H&R/NEF little us single shots required that you send the frame back for fitting. This is to ensure accuracy but also the legal folks for safety and customer support reasons.

What you want can be done but will only happen in a custom rifle route. There are a couple companies here in the US and I am sure in Germany and Austria that could build one for you. However that will come at a expense. My guess is that you are looking at 30-50K dollars or Euro's depending on which side of the pond it is built. But I also don't think you will find anyone willing to build a very high pressure round into a break open single or double for that matter. (IE 65K PSI on the weatherby)

So you are either looking at a custom or a less than elegant TC encore solution.

 

[Russ16]

I love this idea but I don’t think it is realistic. You even say that the market would be “slow but steady”. Slow and steady markets mean either low quality or expensive. And that’s separate of the engineering challenges. As many have said the frame for a .22 class cartridge will not handle larger and a that car tiger will be ungainly on a frame that will even handle something like a 35 Whelen much less magnum and large bore guns.

There is a much bigger market for multi barrel shotgun sets and even those are rare. A 28 gauge in the same frame that handles a twelve just doesn’t work in a game gun configuration. Yes competition guns do it but those a heavier guns meant for targets not carrying in the field.

I’m afraid you’re looking for something that isn’t realistic.

 

[Red Leg]

Everyone understands you. We’re engineering what this looks like. You can’t have your cake and eat it too. It’s either a miserable, overbuilt beast, or it’s relatively light weight. To shoot the calibers you want, it would be a very heavy, crude, troublesome gun. If kept to kipplauf calibers, it’s been tried and failed many times.

Get a Parkwest model 10 traveler with two barrels, a small and medium bore. That’s the best option running, but will set you back $14k.

Respectfully, I’ve spent 30 years getting rid of my bad gun judgement of my 20s. I had Eabco contenders and encores. I think once you hold a sublime gun for its task, you no longer want compromise.

A break action do-all single shot is laden with compromises. Life’s too short to own ugly or heavy guns.

My perfect gun I’ve never owned, a Heym double in 470 with a set of 20 gauge barrels and a medium bore. (Never found the shotgun barrel model) A Dakota traveller 76 bolt gun in two barrels is pretty good too. A traveler 10 I’ve never owned, but a single caliber single shot model 10 is as good of a single shot as one can ever wish.

I’d convince you of the problems of your wish if you were in my workshop and I can show you how it would work and how much you’d hate it.

Or simply get an R8

Perfect ergonomics and weight with each barrel set; the size of a klipplauf thanks to that brilliant trigger magazine design; no need to re-sight in the rifle with barrel changes; and it takes down into a perfect international travel packages. There are also those three extra rounds when the buffalo doesn't immediately agree to expire.

 

[VertigoBE]

To put a positive spin to the thread, if the goal is a semi bespoke single shot at a competitive price point, why not do something that has not been done mass market so far?

No (or only limited, according to cartridge groups) switch barrels, but a frame matched to caliber in the style of Ischler Stutzen’s for example. We have our falling blocks like the Ruger’s No ’s, we have the simple break actions Blaser K[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji6], Krieghoff Essencia, Merkel K, etc. This would be one with an elegant hammer on the side.

 

[rookhawk]

To put a positive spin to the thread, if the goal is a semi bespoke single shot at a competitive price point, why not do something that has not been done mass market so far?

No (or only limited, according to cartridge groups) switch barrels, but a frame matched to caliber in the style of Ischler Stutzen’s for example. We have our falling blocks like the Ruger’s No ’s, we have the simple break actions Blaser K[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji6], Krieghoff Essencia, Merkel K, etc. This would be one with an elegant hammer on the side.

Island hammerguns are not particularly in fashion at present so its a really small market for a stalking rifle or break action today.

For bespoke guns, its very hard to beat perfection. The collector community believes that the ultimate perfection was the Gibbs-Farquarson and perhaps the Westley Richards falling block. Those examples exist in excellent condition for $8000-$25000 which is less than new construction costs. About a decade ago there was a two barrel takedown WR that was stunning within those pricepoints, the large bore was a 425WR, I don't remember what the smallbore was but it was a good one.

We're competing against the costs to manufacture and also against the best alternative already present in the market. It's hard to spend gigantic money for a new one when the originals exist and aren't as expensive as making a custom today.

 

[Sarg]

Some nice Rifles made in Europe still, there are many .

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

During my wanderings around the SCI Convention, I was able to chat with Steve Rabakoff of Parkwest Arms. While I love the rifles on display and have ideas of buying one soon, my real hearts desire is a single shot break action rifle similar to the Blazer K95, the Merkel K3 or the Thompson Center TCR. Of the ones I've seen and laid hands on, none feel right to me. Steve was very patient as I decribed what for me would be the perfect rifle, and I'd like some input from the members here before moving forward with such a project.

For me, the rifle should possess the following characteristics.

1. Be of first rate quality. Not the old H&R that many of us started with, but one that is a beautiful example of American gunmaking at it's finest.

2. Be available with accessory barrels that are fully interchangeable. The owner should be able to purchase barrels at any time and assemble them to his receiver without the need for gunsmithing, or a return to the factory.

3. Be available with shotgun and rifle barrels as the Thompson Center TCR-83/87 was.

4 . Have a locking system capable of handling the largest African calibers, and the highest pressure magnum chamberings. The large hood and locking system on several of the European rifles is not to my taste, and according to some can make it difficult to extract rimless cases, and rimmed cases are preferred in those rifles.

5. Be available in multi-barrel cased sets for the World Wide hunter.

6. Utilize a safety with American shooters in mind. A tang mounted sliding safety would be my pick.

7. Use a scope mounting system that doesn't look like a total afterthought, but looks at home on such a rifle.

8. Be available in various stock and forearm configurations, possibly as upgrades or custom orders, similar to the Blazer R8 line of rifles.

9. Not use an exposed hammer like the TC Encore rifles, but a somewhat elegant hammerless receiver along the size and shape of the Browning BT-99.

I know full well that such a rifle is not going to set the World on fire with millions of sales at WalMart, but then that's not the idea. I honestly believe there is a slow, but very steady market for such an American rifle, but every attempt so far seems to be low quality and half hearted.

Your thoughts?

@skydiver386
Glad to say your not asking for much.
In my eyes the sweetest American made single shot was the Winchester lowall and high wall.
Slick action and super accurate. Even the newer browning copy is beautiful.
Bob

 

[Grumpy gumpy]

Bergara make a single shot break action, don’t know how large they go though
And in regards to the 10.3x60R, to non-Europeans it’s a 450/400 2-3/8 and they fir nicely into a large frame martini.
Gumpy

 

[skydiver386]

@skydiver386
Glad to say your not asking for much.
In my eyes the sweetest American made single shot was the Winchester low wall and high wall.
Slick action and super accurate. Even the newer browning copy is beautiful.
Bob

Tried to be specific in order to avoid discussion of bolt action single shots, falling block single shots, etc.

What I have described has already been done several times by various manufacturers over the years. Although I respect the opinion of many on this forum, I believe when it comes to interchangeable barrel break actions specifically, they are off the mark. There is most certainly a market for such firearms as evidenced by the T/C Encore and Contender. T/C as a company was based on the sales of the Contender, but because th

The T/C TCR83/87 is very much what I'd like to see, and is probably what I'll go back to. This gun was a failure not because people didn't want a break action rifle, but because it didn't work. When I bought my first T/C TCR-83 new in the box, and attempted to assemble it, the barrel would not close, or lock up, and certainly wouldn't fire. Who want's a gun like that? I and everyone else that purchased a TCR83 was probably familiar with the Contender, and it's ability to change barrels without gunsmith fitting. It was even advertised as such, but beautiful as it was on the outside, mechanically it was unworkable.

 

[skydiver386]

As stated there we understand what you would like and are trying to help with setting the basis of the engineering and manufacturing specs that would be required to make your dream single shot a reality.

The tolerances have to be super tight to have the rifle accurate if you have ever smoke fit or watched someone fit a set of barrels for a custom single shot or double rifle along with shotgun barrels. You would see very quickly why manufacture require the action to come back and the subsequent barrels fitted to that specific frame. Even the H&R/NEF little us single shots required that you send the frame back for fitting. This is to ensure accuracy but also the legal folks for safety and customer support reasons.

I understand what you are saying, but there are a few things that are missing.

I have it on 100% authority from talking with former employee's at the H&R/NEF factory that the single shot barrels could have easily been built without custom gunsmith fitting.

The reason was because H&R had built it's single shot break action shotguns for over 40 years. The original frame/reciever's were cast with just enough strength for the shogun barrels and normal shotgun pressures.

When the decision to put rifle calibers on this frame was made, a redesign of the receiver was done to increase it's strength. It needed to be capable of withstanding 55,000cup pressures, plus a safety margin. This is well over double many shotgun pressures.

The new receivers were known as the SB2, and the old shotgun reciever's then became known as the SB1.

ALL of the new rifle caliber barrels were purposely made oversized so that they could not be assembled onto an SB1. Remember, at the time they were a large factory producing both guns at the same time, and a measure like this was a good common sense safety measure.

Break action rifles barrels for high pressure cartridges don't need to be gunsmith fitted. There still has to be clearance enough that the action can easily open and close. The real trick to any break action firearm is making the locking block strong enough, while not being ugly or oversized for the intended purpose.

 

[AZDAVE]

@skydiver386 I fully understand why H&R/NEF did on the SB2 and SB1's. I talked with the folks there several times. Made the jigs for doing trigger jobs on the SB'2. and was told the same things you mentioned. I have two Buffalo classics one I kept as a 45/70 and the other I chucked the barrel up in my lathe and rechambered to 45/100. I am very well versed in the H&R and TC encore world.

The SB2 using the barrel stub method 577NE and the late Ed Hubble made a few in his 585 Hubble. The biggest issue is the bolt thrust for a round. Both of those rounds are low pressure where as your 460Weatherby you mentioned is way above the pressure and bolt thrust for this platform.

I am confident that the reason that H&R didn't go above the 45/70 in rifle rounds and 500 SW in pistol rounds in a rifle is purely for liability reasons.

Fitting a different H&R barrel to a new receiver isn't that hard to do if you know how.

It is also a hammer type rifle that isn't part of your requirements list.

The TCR rifle just didn't make it in a for profit world. and is even less likely in a world where the majority of younger shooters want black rifles or cheap bolt guns.

Now your biggest problem is that H&R/NEF doesn't exist, they were owned my Remingtion and was part of the bankruptcy for the third time problem set. I don't know who owns the H&R/NEF name but I would bet that won't see it brought back to market.

Henry Arms makes a small break action but don't know enough about them to comment.

I could go on for many pages but the bottom line is that what your looking for in a cheap reliable platform isn't produced by any manufacture.

 

[AZDAVE]

I forgot that Rossi and CVA also make break actions with a hammer.

Did a detailed search and FAIR/Rizzini makes a break action single shot the one I saw listed on gunbroker was in 9.3.74, you would have to call the importer to see if they would fit additional barrels and what their largest round they would build for. $ 3500ish range

 

[skydiver386]

Here is a factory T/C barrel for a TCR in 375 H&H.

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1088889411

I've seen custom barrels by aftermarket companies for the TCR in even larger calibers. I know one gentleman that has several TCR87's with various barrels in 10gauge 3.5", 416 Rem, 30-06, etc.

Factory barrels 10 and 12 gauge 3.5" were available from T/C back when this gun was introduced. See the picture of the original T/C magazine advertisement from that era.

@Tubby’s Canteen has somewhat the right idea. A fairly large frame with interchangeable barrels, top tang safety. This whole thing shouldn't be that hard. The concept is more than workable, but quality of design, materials and craftsmanship would need to be brough up to appeal to the modern gun buyer.

 

[skydiver386]

@skydiver386 I fully understand why H&R/NEF did on the SB2 and SB1's. I talked with the folks there several times. Made the jigs for doing trigger jobs on the SB'2. and was told the same things you mentioned. I have two Buffalo classics one I kept as a 45/70 and the other I chucked the barrel up in my lathe and rechambered to 45/100. I am very well versed in the H&R and TC encore world.

The SB2 using the barrel stub method 577NE and the late Ed Hubble made a few in his 585 Hubble. The biggest issue is the bolt thrust for a round. Both of those rounds are low pressure where as your 460Weatherby you mentioned is way above the pressure and bolt thrust for this platform.

I am confident that the reason that H&R didn't go above the 45/70 in rifle rounds and 500 SW in pistol rounds in a rifle is purely for liability reasons.

Fitting a different H&R barrel to a new receiver isn't that hard to do if you know how.

It is also a hammer type rifle that isn't part of your requirements list.

The TCR rifle just didn't make it in a for profit world. and is even less likely in a world where the majority of younger shooters want black rifles or cheap bolt guns.

Now your biggest problem is that H&R/NEF doesn't exist, they were owned my Remingtion and was part of the bankruptcy for the third time problem set. I don't know who owns the H&R/NEF name but I would bet that won't see it brought back to market.

Henry Arms makes a small break action but don't know enough about them to comment.

I could go on for many pages but the bottom line is that what your looking for in a cheap reliable platform isn't produced by any manufacture.

Understood. That's the very reason I was suggesting a totally new design from the ground up at the beginning of this thread.

Attempts have been made, but nearly all have been very half assed, and consumer's knew it.

 

[AZDAVE]

Well you have your concept and requirements.

So I suggest you start calling manufactures and see if you can get one interested enough to commit to building such a rifle.

Those of us that would be interested in such a firearm that run in my circles the FAIR/rizzini, K95 would be the starting point for quality required.

 

[skydiver386]

Well you have your concept and requirements.

So I suggest you start calling manufactures and see if you can get one interested enough to commit to building such a rifle.

Those of us that would be interested in such a firearm that run in my circles the FAIR/rizzini, K95 would be the starting point for quality required.

Most factories wouldn't seriously look at anything new, unless it came from inside that company. If they did, they would take down every element of your vision carefully, thank you for your time and tell you they'll get back to you. After they made millions off the idea, they would act like they never heard of you.

I think the only way to ever see it through to fruition is to design and build it myself as a prototype. CAD program a moderate sized cnc mill and lathe and possibly an EDM, do the ATF forms, hire a Patent attorney, beta test the prototype to destruction, make any necessary changes. Then buy a small shop, fill it with just enough machines to do the job, and put Tina to work answering the phone.

Gauging interest was the primary reason I started this thread, but unfortunately it quickly devolved into "skydiver386 wants a 6.25 pound 460 Weatherby Kipplauf".