A little food for thought - Pricing on African Hunting Safaris

[Royal27]

And in the bigger scheme of things what will this mean Pieter? Please inform us...

How much are you going to be charging if we're back at 7/1 or 5/1 God forbid...?

Regards,

Chris

Chris,

I'd love to hear your answer to the same question. Are you saying that if the exchange rate goes to 5/1 you won't change pricing?

Perhaps I'm not understanding your point here about the deposit. To me as a client, a hunt deposit means I'm reserving time to hunt, not locking in rates two years in advance. That's why the exchange rate language is in the contract and discussed. If I want to lock in rates I would sign a futures contract that specifically states what the safari charge will be. There is risk both ways, is there not?

 

[ChrisT]

I remember in 2001 I was a PH for john x safaris we turned at R15 to the USD and in 4 months I lost 45% of my income when it dropped away.

In 2009 or Jan 2010 can not recall exactly I was running an airfare included special while in the US, as we where trading at R9.95 to the $............ by May we where sitting at R6.20 to the $ I remember distinctly promising myself NEVER AGAIN!

I took the knock I did not knock my clients for it...

It sucks boys Cris you seem to also know the feeling.

My best.

I do know he feeling Jaco... and for that reason I will never, ever fall into that trap again...

Best,

Chris

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

Chris,

I'd love to hear your answer to the same question. Are you saying that if the exchange rate goes to 5/1 you won't change pricing?

Perhaps I'm not understanding your point here about the deposit. To me as a client, a hunt deposit means I'm reserving time to hunt, not locking in rates two years in advance. That's why the exchange rate language is in the contract and discussed. If I want to lock in rates I would sign a futures contract that specifically states what the safari charge will be. There is risk both ways, is there not?

Not to answer on Chris's behalf rather my own, but I lock down both, I always have.
I have never thought of it to be fair to the client the other way around.

Hence my very "leveled" pricing structure which remains very much the same year on year.

My best

 

[tarbe]

The risk and pain of exchange rate fluctuations should be shared by the hunter and the outfitter, it seems to me.

Fluctuations happen, and if one party bears all the risk, that makes for a poor and unsustainable business relationship.

If the Outfitter bears all the risk, he is going to build in some "insurance" money into the standard price. And in the extreme cases pointed out above, that insurance money will not even cover the damage. In a case where the rates do not change (or go the other way), the hunter has unknowingly paid for an insurance policy on behalf of the outfitter, that was in no way needed in that case.

Why can't we just allow for this up front, and spell out the responsibilities in the contract? I realize some hunters might balk...but this could be an education experience. Most US hunters do not deal with currency value fluctuations in their day-to-day life...it is a foreign concept to them. I realize this could be a hard sell.

 

[Royal27]

Not to answer on Chris's behalf rather my own, but I lock down both, I always have.
I have never thought of it to be fair to the client the other way around.

Hence my very "leveled" pricing structure which remains very much the same year on year.

My best

Thanks Jaco. How far out do you book though? By limiting the booking duration you're obviously protecting yourself, as you should. Isn't this just a different way of doing the same thing, protecting yourself?

For the record, only for DG would I sign a contract and pay a deposit multiple years out. Well, not completely true, I'm sure I'd do the same thing for something like Bongo.

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

The risk and pain of exchange rate fluctuations should be shared by the hunter and the outfitter, it seems to me.

Fluctuations happen, and if one party bears all the risk, that makes for a poor and unsustainable business relationship.

If the Outfitter bears all the risk, he is going to build in some "insurance" money into the standard price. And in the extreme cases pointed out above, that insurance money will not even cover the damage. In a case where the rates do not change (or go the other way), the hunter has unknowingly paid for an insurance policy on behalf of the outfitter, that was in no way needed in that case.

Why can't we just allow for this up front, and spell out the responsibilities in the contract? I realize some hunters might balk...but this could be an education experience. Most US hunters do not deal with currency value fluctuations in their day-to-day life...it is a foreign concept to them. I realize this could be a hard sell.

A novel idea but if my overall pricing structure is market related I simply can not accept the explanation above.

By choice and lessons learnt I prefer not to put out out of this world specials, I have a price list and I'll deal a couple $ this or that way, I believe it is a difference in how people do business.

As an outfitter I only bit into a brick on the exchange rate on those "never to be repeated special deals"

For that very reason I stick to middle of the range comparable safari company pricing.

My clients are happy I'm happy, and they feel that they are getting good value for money.

I do not see any reason to re invent the wheel, a deal is a deal.

Quite correct I mostly limit my hunts to 12 months out. I do discuss hunts two years or even further out but do not accept deposits or sign contracts that far in advance, this to avoid exchange rate discussions and quota issues both ways

My best always

 

[ChrisT]

Very easy to understand, a contract will state that a quote is valid if the exchange rate does not fall below a certain level. If it does new prices will be negotiated or a deposit returned. However , Chris like you should know it is not often that you will fix prices so far ahead. Most bookings I take in advance is more about a specific time period hunters want, for instance bow hunters wants a specific time in August with a specific moon stage, thus they confirm the time with a small deposit, knowing that the price will be competitive for whatever the situation is. Exchange rates do not fall in one day from 11 to 7 so as soon as it gets close to a minimum rate, decisions can be made timeously.

We are with the current economical situation now speculating on hypothetical maters. Even though I was not running an outfit in 2005 I have taken note from the situation, the reason for the above way to handle it contractually and solve the problem before it arise.

Pieter,

You have still not answered my question so let me put it to you in plain words...

"If I were a client who booked a hunt with you for 2017... and IF by the time I get there the exchange rate is down to 5/1 - as opposed to 11/1 as it is now, how much would I have to pay you in Daily Rates?"

I wasn't the one who mentioned taking deposits for hunts 2 years ahead - you were... And I have no intention of getting into a fight here on the internet. In fact; I have no intention of getting into a fight with you at all...

All I need is an honest answer to my original question.

Best,

Chris

 

[TokkieM]

Has anyone actually done a 400$+ a day hunt in SA and then also a 270-300$ a day hunt? Would be interesting to see how you precieved the differance in service, nice to have's and quality of the hunting and meals etc at the lodge.
I have hunted with both clients paying in the upper bracket and the lower bracket, there was a substantial differance in a few ways. This is purely for PG.

I can also say that I have hunted the same area with clients paying both rates, but I also hunted exclusive big $ areas with clients paying high rates and looking for some above good trophy Kudu for the EC.
Hell I once hunted a very,very exclusive area with a 5 star lodge, we hunted for a big Kudu for 3 days and got lucky on the 3rd morning. It was early enough to have breakfast at the lodge, we were the only ones in camo. Anyway turns out breakfast was 60$ a pop, nice break from the lunch box, but I had some explaining to do to the Outfitter
This happend to be the same day the 100$ a day camera man (a worker on the farm that happend to be promoted to camera operator) decided to sleep late and I left without him Kudu dont carry watches.

Cant agree more with Chris,Jaco and Pieter, that a good tracker and skinner are worth much more than avarage wage per day. Unfortunatelly most clients only understand this once the trophy is against the wall, there is a reason Taxidermist have spare capes.

 

[ROCKET]

Really this thread is to much intersting and I realize that in most diferent parts around the world this hunting matters is almost the same for every one.
I can consider that our o operating cost here in Argentina are the same that you have in South Africa guys with the same items or parts getting involved, leasing areas, renewal of goverment permits all years, lodge manteinance, vehicles plus a long list of Etc..........I can even say that our equal between Pesos and Dollars is very close to yours........13 pesos equal 1 Dolar.

We run tree diferent Lodges down here, one for duck season from april to august......We leas that lodge, owners provide us acommodations and food so I take care just about the areas, hunting equipement and the hunting itself.

In the two other Lodges, one for Doves hunting in Cordoba and the other in La Pampa for Red Stag and big game We take care about everything, food, property manteinance, workers....the whole things and let me tell you is not much diference that in first case I named above for ducks.
In fact I belive that our operating cost are quite similar with the operating structure Chris named and detail at the begining of the thread.

Like in every bussisnes you have to keep the eye in the operating cost, to know, or have a idea at least about how to price your service......but I think there is something beyond all this.........The actual international standart prices for the differents hunting in the World......Above or Bellow, Luxuryus or not, in the midle is a standart imposed by the market, no matter where your operating cost.......I doubt to much I could sell a dove hunting program at 4500 american dollars, for the simple reazon that this is not the logical price for it.

We just try to keep our cost as more logical as We can, and offer the best as we can into the good standarts, and standart prices for the hunt offered.

We price in Dollars off course and in a Country like ours there is not another way to do this......the Pesos value is so volatile, you even cant know how much will be worth next week because of a tremendous inflation we run here daily.......you loose money in less than a week if you trade in pesos, even in a day.....!!!!


Great post Chris....!!!

 

[peras]

Pieter,

You have still not answered my question so let me put it to you in plain words...

"If I were a client who booked a hunt with you for 2017... and IF by the time I get there the exchange rate is down to 5/1 - as opposed to 11/1 as it is now, how much would I have to pay you in Daily Rates?"

I wasn't the one who mentioned taking deposits for hunts 2 years ahead - you were... And I have no intention of getting into a fight here on the internet. In fact; I have no intention of getting into a fight with you at all...

All I need is an honest answer to my original question.

Best,

I honestly think you did not read my last reply. I can not explain it better.
Chris

 

[peras]

Sorry, on my tab difficult to type. Chris I do not think I can explain better than I did.

 

[BRICKBURN]

Thanks for the heads-up Wayne.

FWIW My prices will be quoted in CAD at the shows... But NOT at $250p/d (Canadian or US) - that's for sure... I have to make a living too...

Best,

Chris

You certainly have to make a living and no one begrudges that.

 

[brushmore]

Since I am new to all of this I know I am a bit naive but I kind of assumed that outfitters made most of the profits on trophy fees? This seems like to me a place where margins can vary widely depending upon various factors. So if I see a place with very good prices and a decent reputation I assume that the profit margin for that outfitter is much better. So I could see someone deciding to take a loss on the daily rate to be competitive if they can easily make up for it somewhere else.

Is that anywhere close to reality?

 

[billc]

Well brickburn as for easy nerve to hit on billc could not be more wrong.I am as easy going as they get but also have way more common sense then must by the way it looks.Just not going to let things get thrown around that I know are not always true about cost of a hunt plain and simple.Pretty sure the website is here to help people and saving money can be a help.


Yes if you dont do your homework I guess you could book and ele hunt for sept but the ele are only there in nov.Then maybe the price is not so good.But with the right question and research that should not happen.Plus then were are getting to the fraud that an outfitter maybe willing to do.That is not as much about price but a thief in a business not the same thing that this topic is about in my eyes.AS far as I know we have no outfitters on the ah site like that.

You can say all you want but the facts that happen to me first hand not I heard this or read this or I will make up what if this happened.Is I had great hunts that others can have also for a great price.Period

As for the I have this big area it cost me this or I only want to do 10 hunts instead of 30.Great your business do it your way.Just dont keep saying you cant have a great hunt at a cheaper price because your business model wont allow it.
I myself have been in camp with my son and I or the group that went with me.I was not passed off to some ph and always seen the outfitter in camp with us.Again maybe this does happen but does not always happen.

Some can hint and say oh they dont mean him or this guy but then say I dont know how anyone can do a hunt at 250 a day or This guy is new so he will not be able to do the same as me because I have done it for 20 years.Certain guys on here fit that talk and maybe it looks like cheap pokes to some of us.I hope if someone make a comment it has some point to it as when I do I mean what I say.The old saying dont piss down my neck and tell me it is raining comes to mind.

As for the exchange rate if you read what must people say on this rates are subject to change.I know this going in but has never come in to play.Never hear anyone complain or give money back if it goes there way though.I have a feeling that evens out from year to year.Maybe I will try that when I bid some jobs.Just tell my client when I bid the job bread was only 2.00 now it is 3.00 I must charge you more now.It is just another part of business that people must handle as it goes.

The one thing I have learned over the years is when someone has to justify why they charge more they never want to say the real reason why.The true answer is I want more in my pocket for what I am doing.That answer is not wrong in anyway but the truth not the sugar coated one so many like to give.

 

[BRICKBURN]

Not to answer on Chris's behalf rather my own, but I lock down both, I always have.
I have never thought of it to be fair to the client the other way around.
.............

My thoughts exactly.
I book a hunt and we set the price and go from there.

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

Since I am new to all of this I know I am a bit naive but I kind of assumed that outfitters made most of the profits on trophy fees? This seems like to me a place where margins can vary widely depending upon various factors. So if I see a place with very good prices and a decent reputation I assume that the profit margin for that outfitter is much better. So I could see someone deciding to take a loss on the daily rate to be competitive if they can easily make up for it somewhere else.

Is that anywhere close to reality?

Not in my world, I don't know if anyone else can afford to do this.

Not being funny just answering your question honestly

My best always

 

[billc]

Since I am new to all of this I know I am a bit naive but I kind of assumed that outfitters made most of the profits on trophy fees? This seems like to me a place where margins can vary widely depending upon various factors. So if I see a place with very good prices and a decent reputation I assume that the profit margin for that outfitter is much better. So I could see someone deciding to take a loss on the daily rate to be competitive if they can easily make up for it somewhere else.

Is that anywhere close to reality?

Some do that and again it all comes down to there business.Some own animals and some pay others for game taken on there land.Some do both and just work off a small profit margin.many factors go into a quote for a hunt.

 

[brushmore]

Not being funny just answering your question honestly

Don't worry, I didn't take it that way at all. I appreciate the honest answer since it's one of those things it would be kind of rude to ask directly anyway.

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

Well brickburn as for easy nerve to hit on billc could not be more wrong.I am as easy going as they get but also have way more common sense then must by the way it looks.Just not going to let things get thrown around that I know are not always true about cost of a hunt plain and simple.Pretty sure the website is here to help people and saving money can be a help.


Yes if you dont do your homework I guess you could book and ele hunt for sept but the ele are only there in nov.Then maybe the price is not so good.But with the right question and research that should not happen.Plus then were are getting to the fraud that an outfitter maybe willing to do.That is not as much about price but a thief in a business not the same thing that this topic is about in my eyes.AS far as I know we have no outfitters on the ah site like that.

You can say all you want but the facts that happen to me first hand not I heard this or read this or I will make up what if this happened.Is I had great hunts that others can have also for a great price.Period

As for the I have this big area it cost me this or I only want to do 10 hunts instead of 30.Great your business do it your way.Just dont keep saying you cant have a great hunt at a cheaper price because your business model wont allow it.
I myself have been in camp with my son and I or the group that went with me.I was not passed off to some ph and always seen the outfitter in camp with us.Again maybe this does happen but does not always happen.

Some can hint and say oh they dont mean him or this guy but then say I dont know how anyone can do a hunt at 250 a day or This guy is new so he will not be able to do the same as me because I have done it for 20 years.Certain guys on here fit that talk and maybe it looks like cheap pokes to some of us.I hope if someone make a comment it has some point to it as when I do I mean what I say.The old saying dont piss down my neck and tell me it is raining comes to mind.

As for the exchange rate if you read what must people say on this rates are subject to change.I know this going in but has never come in to play.Never hear anyone complain or give money back if it goes there way though.I have a feeling that evens out from year to year.Maybe I will try that when I bid some jobs.Just tell my client when I bid the job bread was only 2.00 now it is 3.00 I must charge you more now.It is just another part of business that people must handle as it goes.

The one thing I have learned over the years is when someone has to justify why they charge more they never want to say the real reason why.The true answer is I want more in my pocket for what I am doing.That answer is not wrong in anyway but the truth not the sugar coated one so many like to give.

Billc 5 short comments

-my business model does not allow for it.
-larger properties are exactly that, and cost more.
-my time and experience comes at a price exactly the same as a good surgeon.
-EC and Limpopo and or Moz are not comparable.
-An exchange rate is an exchange rate experience have taught me to navigate around it.

My very best always.
Ps. not raining here either.

 

[peras]

Billc 5 short comments

-my business model does not allow for it.
-larger properties are exactly that, and cost more.
-my time and experience comes at a price exactly the same as a good surgeon.
-EC and Limpopo and or Moz are not comparable.
-An exchange rate is an exchange rate experience have taught me to navigate around it.

My very best always.
Ps. not raining here either.

A very honest answer. I respect that.