A Genuine Question : Why Is Hornady So Hated?

[Foxi]

I don't understand exactly the question and what you mean. Can you put it differently ?

I have never seen it,with soft nose shoulder shots on cape buffaloes ,that they had an exit hole.(however your .460 was never there)
The last one from a friend, he felt the two Woodleigh bullets(.450 Nitro) on the other side of the skin,but no exit.
With the smaller buffalos in West Africa ,I can already imagine that these have an exit with a good soft nose.
But a big bull of synercus caffer caffer ?

 

[mneilh]

I never use factory ammo and have used Hornady components extensively. I have had great results with their Interbond projectiles. Good life out of their brass in .375H&H, .458WinMag and .470Nitro.

 

[grand veneur]

I have never seen it,with soft nose shoulder shots on cape buffaloes ,that they had an exit hole.(however your .460 was never there)
The last one from a friend, he felt the two Woodleigh bullets(.450 Nitro) on the other side of the skin,but no exit.
With the smaller buffalos in West Africa ,I can already imagine that these have an exit with a good soft nose.
But a big bull of synercus caffer caffer ?

Maybe I should have written , you rarely have an exit hole with this bullet , but it happens.

I shot 11 buffalos in Burkina Faso , all others in various countries of Africa , also with various cartridges and bullets. I just have buffalos trophies in front of my eyes. The difference in size of the skull is small between west , central and east , but that of the horn big. The west african buffalos in Burkina Faso are not forest buffalos.

 

[Major Khan]

I'll also say that I've had good experiences with Hornady loaded ammo and components for calibers up to 338 WM, including on-game performance. The Superformance 180g GMXs from my 300 WM were hell on PG up to blue wildebeest and kudu. The inexpensive American Whitetail 90 grainers are half MOA in my son's 243 and neither doe that has fallen to them has taken a step.

I do not have experience with DGX/DGS on game, and given the comments here I may be irrevocably biased against ever using them - even in the new bonded version. I have several boxes of the older non-bonded stuff in 375 H&H I got a great deal on a few years back (before they introduced the bonded stuff). I'll use those for practice and reload the brass, but I'll use a TSX or AFrame for game.

Thank you so much for your excellent input . It seems that the general consensus here is that Hornady ammunition is an extremely strong strong contender for plains game .

 

[Major Khan]

I had originally purchased Hornady's Superperformance SST ammunition for my .338 WM. At the suggestion of our outfitter I switched to Barnes VOR-TX TTSX BT for my hunt. At the range both rounds shot closer together than my own accuracy could differentiate. I only shot the Barnes ammo at live animals, and it seemed to do the job well. My dad wished that he had brought Hornady ELD-X for the smaller antelope he shot, because he thought they would leave a better blood trail. Nothing he shot with the Barnes rounds ran further than 30 yards, though, so it's not like tracking was needed. His 7mm Rem Mag with Barnes ammunition put down everything up to and including an Eland.

Thank you so much for your insight . A bullet which can make any game drop after running 30 yards certainly has my endorsement. During my time , my clients used to bring Barnes X soft point bullets.

 

[Major Khan]

Major, If you really want to stir the pot, start another thread only change Hornady to Berger. I think they're universally hated more than any other bullet. Full disclosure, except for centerfire rifles under 6mm, they're all I use.

I think that you have given me an idea for the future , Hog Patrol . Please , just call me Poton.

 

[Major Khan]

Oh , my. Now , l am genuinely concerned . I purchased a Winchester M70 Safari Express chambered in .458 Winchester Magnum recently , and 200 cartridges of Hornady DGS and DGX ammunition. I was planning on using it to hunt a tuskless cow elephant in South Africa two years down the line . After reading all these posts , l need to consider a change in ammunition choice.

I kept telling your son repeatedly , again and again , " Get your father the Trophy Bonded Bullets from Federal " ! Instead , he brings Hornady .

 

[Major Khan]

I think I should come in with my two cents worth. No, I haven't been to Africa and haven't chased down DG. However, I have used Hornady DGX on deer. The new bonded DGX is world's different from the older DGX. I have never recovered a single bullet from my .416 Rigby that has taken a deer. This year I tried out the new bonded DGX and they tended to act more like a solid on whitetails I shot.

For my money, and whitetails, the old non-bonded DGX is better. Again, from my limited experience the new bonded DGX is much harder. I have used the DGX rounds since they shoot the most accurately from MY RIFLE.

I agree with you , Hillbilly Marine . During my career as a professional shikaree , the Hornady solid metal covered bullets and soft point bullets were held in EXTREMELY high regard by my American clients . It is a shame that they have deteriorated so much over the years.

 

[Major Khan]

White tails and African buffalo are in two completely different categories.

The DGX is not up to a reliable standard for my liking to take down an animal that can & will kill you when given half a chance once badly injured due to poor bullet performance.
Again, why risk it when there are far better options that performs perfectly 99.9% of the time? we owe it to the animal we hunt, to kill cleanly.

I'm not bashing Hornady, I'm glad for all the positive things they do & stand for but not their DGX range, old & "improved" has a bad reputation & that will haunt them for many years.
BTW, I don't think the concern has ever been the hardness of the cup, but rather the bonding as the cup & core tends to separate cleanly & the cup disintegrate...perhaps too hard/brittle alloy causing it to break instead of disforming and remain bonded to the core?

Regardless, if Hornady does correct it, I'd suggest a new packaging or even a name change of the range ie DGXX or anything so people will know its really the improved / redesigned ammunition, but I suspect its a matter of cost. The old stock will be returned at a loss since no-one will want to use it.
To ID the new "improved DGX" ammunitions you have to lookup the serial number and do some funky science times the feeling of the color purple to know if it is the improved stock?
Is this a ploy to fool the uninformed & push it off to consumers to take more risks? I can see the benefit of this. If it fails, they can claim its the old / poor performing stock. if no feedback, no worries, the money is in the bank.
Unfortunately, reputation is always measured on the worst, never the best performance regardless of the cause.

Some pictures of the internal view of a buffalo cow hunted by a friend of mine (Frederik), just have a look at the size of the ribs that overlap each other like armor.
300grn .375 Woodleigh HD, bullet was found just under the skin on the opposite shoulder, perfect performance delivered from a quality bullet.

View attachment 326082 View attachment 326083 View attachment 326064 View attachment 326065

That is just the sort of performance that l would want for a gaur or a cape buffalo !

 

[Major Khan]

I can only comment on the bullets I have used myself and seen used in the field..

I have shot and killed elephants with 480 grain DGS (.458Win. Mag), compressed reloads that made 2100fps over the crono.. I used a ZKK602 with 25" barrel, heart lung shots...worked well..

A friend have used DGS .375H&H factory ammo (300 grainers) supplied by me, he took spectacular frontal brainshots on ele on two occations, one was a huge bull...so they cant be that bad.. he has taken even more using heart-lung shots with the same ammo..

That said….I would rather use a banded mono on ele in the future..

However, I would not use DGX on DG as long as there are Swift-A frames, Woodleigh etc. around..

You experiences mirror mine , Pondoro. During my career as a professional shikaree from 1961 to 1970 , Hornady solid metal covered bullets were some of the best performing bullets for heavy boned , thick skinned game , such as gaur . Their metal " jackets " were impressively thick.

 

[Major Khan]

Sure, there is always someone better.
Until a buffalo hangs on the wall in your home, you have spent about 25.000.- USD.
The bullet prices play no role at all.
I could never complain about Hornady bullets.
And there is no other bulletmaker, that offers the same value for money as Hornady bullets.
But I am not a benchmark, I like the .458 Win MAg. also .

I agree with your view , Foxi . My own personal experience shows me that at the very least , the Hornady bullets of the 1960s were some of the best . The " jackets " on their solid metal covered bullets were quite strong .

While l do not like the .458 Winchester magnum calibre myself , l concede that it is a perfectly acceptable calibre provided that FRESH ammunition is used. .458 Winchester magnum calibre ammunition have very definite shelf lives , compared to , say .375 Holland & Holland magnum calibre ammunition . I made an observation after tallying all of my clients who used .458 Winchester magnum calibre rifles . Each and every client of mine who was using .458 Winchester magnum calibre rifles with success was using FRESH ammunition purchased or loaded less than 3 years prior to them booking the shikar with my outfitters . The clients who suffered unimpressive results with their .458 Winchester magnum calibre ammunition , were ALL using ammunition which was purchased or loaded more than 5 years prior to them booking the shikar with my outfitters. When l started working in the Bangladesh Ordinance Factories and corresponding with my American friend and former professional shikaree partner , Tobin Stakkatz , l noticed that old .458 Winchester magnum calibre ammunition tends to develop erratic velocities after 3 or 4 years . This is caused by the short cartridge case and the compressed powder propellant .
In the mid 1980s ( it was 1984 , if my memory serves me correctly ) the American company , Winchester began to reduce the powder charge in their .458 Winchester magnum calibre factory loaded ammunition , in an attempt to improve the shelf life of the product . However , velocity was lowered from 2150 feet per second to 2040 feet per second and this produced counter productive results in terms of performance.
My personal advice for users of .458 Winchester magnum calibre rifles is to always use FRESH ammunition which was loaded / purchased no more than 3 years prior to you using them and to use loadings which replicate Winchester's original 2150 feet per second loading .

 

[Forrest Halley]

My personal advice for users of .458 Winchester magnum calibre rifles is to always use FRESH ammunition which was loaded / purchased no more than 3 years prior to you using them and to use loadings which replicate Winchester's original 2150 feet per second loading .

Okay now here's an interesting point. How old is the ammunition that you take on a hunt? I think if we've been hunting long enough, we have experienced failures of ammunition in the field. I can recall two such instances which cost me a kill on thin skinned game.

How long do you keep hunting ammunition around?

How soon do you hand load your ammunition up for your hunt?

 

[steve white]

I lost a solidly shot gemsbok with Hornady interlock in 30 06... tracked it into the second day! I suspect it did the same as on the hartebeest--core came out of cup? Whatever, two strikes...

 

[Major Khan]

Okay now here's an interesting point. How old is the ammunition that you take on a hunt? I think if we've been hunting long enough, we have experienced failures of ammunition in the field. I can recall two such instances which cost me a kill on thin skinned game.

How long do you keep hunting ammunition around?

How soon do you hand load your ammunition up for your hunt?

Personally , Mr. Haley ... that is exactly why l do not like the .458 Winchester magnum calibre . I always prefer calibres with longer shelf lives. For instance , the head shikaree of Allwyn Cooper Limited ( the outfitter where l was a professional shikaree from 1961 to 1970 ) was a gentleman named Rao Naidu.
He used to use a .375 Holland & Holland magnum calibre double barreled side by side rifle made by Westley Richards . He used to use old stocks of ICI Kynoch cartridges which were left behind in India , prior to 1947 ( no new firearms were imported into India after India's independence ) . I have never seen any of that ammunition ( which had to have at least been 14 years old when l started my career in 1961 ) deliver unsatisfactory results. He killed 18 royal Bengal tigers with that ammunition .

I also possess hand loaded Eley 3 inch Alphamax " High Brass " cartridges with spherical ball bullets , lying around in my closet since the 1970s which l still occasionally use for sambhur deer . I have never had 1 misfire .

 

[Ray B]

With regard to Hornady brass, I have little Hornady because I use Winchester whenever possible. But 404 Jeffery is one of the unavailable ones, so I use others. the ones for 404 are Hornady, Bell, RWS, Norma brass and Nickle. Measuring the case mouths I get the following diameters:
RWS .0115 - .0125"
Bell .0105 - .0110"
Norma .0125 - .0130"
Nickle .0130 - .0133"
Hornady .0120 - .0130"

Given the similarity of thickness with the various brands, I don't see that Hornady thick/thin of the neck would be an issue. However, this is a small sampling and is only involving the 404 Jeffery. Other samples and cartridge may vary.

 

[Hogpatrol]

Don't know about a lot of their other bullets but the 200 gr. .40s SSTs do the job on deer. Took this one today with the SML at 285, quartering away shot, complete pass through.

 

[Forrest Halley]

Personally , Mr. Haley ... that is exactly why l do not like the .458 Winchester magnum calibre . I always prefer calibres with longer shelf lives. For instance , the head shikaree of Allwyn Cooper Limited ( the outfitter where l was a professional shikaree from 1961 to 1970 ) was a gentleman named Rao Naidu.
He used to use a .375 Holland & Holland magnum calibre double barreled side by side rifle made by Westley Richards . He used to use old stocks of ICI Kynoch cartridges which were left behind in India , prior to 1947 ( no new firearms were imported into India after India's independence ) . I have never seen any of that ammunition ( which had to have at least been 14 years old when l started my career in 1961 ) deliver unsatisfactory results. He killed 18 royal Bengal tigers with that ammunition .

I also possess hand loaded Eley 3 inch Alphamax " High Brass " cartridges with spherical ball bullets , lying around in my closet since the 1970s which l still occasionally use for sambhur deer . I have never had 1 misfire .

I have been meaning to inquire about your choice of arms. Why on Earth would you choose a 12 gauge shotgun for guiding hunters on dangerous game hunts? You have a fairly good knowledge of what works and what does not with rifles and bullets. Why adopt something so marginal as a shotgun firing lead balls? I've hunted my entire life with a shotgun so I'm aware of the limitations and stretching them with buck, ball, and slug. The prospect of going out to do in a dangerous animal armed with a shotgun seems optimistic given your responsibility to protect others as a hunting guide. How is it you never procured a .375?

With regard to the .458 WM and all the Hornady bullets, folk hunting the largest animals on Earth with shoulder fired weapons are bound to experience a few technical difficulties with projectiles. The projectiles were recovered from the animals. The powder clumping is over with. The guns work well for the most part. I'm not an owner purely because in my research I found out that the Lott could chamber both rounds the choice was easy.

 

[ryan80]

As I have read all of the excellent Major's articles--and those of his two most impressive and generous friends--I will attempt to answer the above question on their behalf, if they don't mind of course. These gentlemen used what they had. I believe, again based on reading their extremely well written and entertaining articles, that if any of the 3 had been able to get a 338 win mag, a 375 H&H with control round feed, or a good 30-06 with 220 grain core lokts (Midway currently has these on sale for under $16 per box in the states with free shipping and I just bought 3 boxes on their recommendations) or even a stock of Bernneke slugs for their shotguns, that they would have chosen any of the above instantly over a 12 gauge pellet shell of any kind. All three have been very clear in the extreme limitations that they were forced to work under in terms of access to quality firearms and ammo.

 

[Tubby’s Canteen]

I have been meaning to inquire about your choice of arms. Why on Earth would you choose a 12 gauge shotgun for guiding hunters on dangerous game hunts? You have a fairly good knowledge of what works and what does not with rifles and bullets. Why adopt something so marginal as a shotgun firing lead balls? I've hunted my entire life with a shotgun so I'm aware of the limitations and stretching them with buck, ball, and slug. The prospect of going out to do in a dangerous animal armed with a shotgun seems optimistic given your responsibility to protect others as a hunting guide. How is it you never procured a .375?

With regard to the .458 WM and all the Hornady bullets, folk hunting the largest animals on Earth with shoulder fired weapons are bound to experience a few technical difficulties with projectiles. The projectiles were recovered from the animals. The powder clumping is over with. The guns work well for the most part. I'm not an owner purely because in my research I found out that the Lott could chamber both rounds the choice was easy.

If you had taken the time to read some of the gentlemans earlier posts you would then know that the laws in India in the sixties were very different.
it is my understanding that the Indian government over through the British rule in 1947. Which made it very hard for these gentleman to acquire fire arms except those manufactured within India. Those being double barrel 12 gauges and a copy of the lee endfield in their own caliber .315 both of which were very poor weopons.
Major Kahn has said on many occasions he was thankful and lucky to have that shotgun becouse it was Belgian made and more reliable then his other options.

These great men made the best of what they had and continued to protect and provide hunters with the opportunity to partake in that which we all love. As well as defend the local population from dangerous wildlife. To criticize their choices when one has not been faced with the same obstacles to overcome is frankly uncouth.

 

[Major Khan]

I have been meaning to inquire about your choice of arms. Why on Earth would you choose a 12 gauge shotgun for guiding hunters on dangerous game hunts? You have a fairly good knowledge of what works and what does not with rifles and bullets. Why adopt something so marginal as a shotgun firing lead balls? I've hunted my entire life with a shotgun so I'm aware of the limitations and stretching them with buck, ball, and slug. The prospect of going out to do in a dangerous animal armed with a shotgun seems optimistic given your responsibility to protect others as a hunting guide. How is it you never procured a .375?

With regard to the .458 WM and all the Hornady bullets, folk hunting the largest animals on Earth with shoulder fired weapons are bound to experience a few technical difficulties with projectiles. The projectiles were recovered from the animals. The powder clumping is over with. The guns work well for the most part. I'm not an owner purely because in my research I found out that the Lott could chamber both rounds the choice was easy.

Read this , Mr. Haley
https://www.africahunting.com/threads/a-gun-which-lasted-a-career-a-life-time.54231/
That should answer your questions . I covered this topic in great detail several times over the last 2 months that l have been writing articles here .
@ryan80 and @Skinnersblade are pin point accurate in their assessment.
If me or any of my compatriots had access to even a .270 Winchester calibre rifle at that time , then l do not think that we would ever have used a shot gun for any land game . No new firearms were imported into India after the British left in 1947 . The only imported firearms available in the country were those which had already been brought into the country prior to 1947 , during the colonial era. If anything , the laws became worse in modern times .After hunting got banned in 1972 in India , during Indira Gandhi's government , all the existing imported fire arms in the country belonging to civilians ( namely the firearms which had been brought into the country prior to 1947 ) started getting confiscated by the authorities . Then , in 1986 , it was formally put into legislation that imported fire arms are banned there . I lived in India until 1970 , before l got conscripted into the Bangladesh Mukti Bahini for the Bangladesh Liberation War of 1971.
I have been living in Bangladesh since 1972 . In Bangladesh , the only calibres for which fire arms and ammunition are commercially imported are : .22 Long Rifle , .22 Winchester magnum rim fire , 12 calibre / bore ( All varieties ) , .32 ACP and .32 Smith & Wesson . However , civilians can own any up to 6 fire arms and from a legal point of view they can own any calibre of rifle or hand gun which they like ( except .303 British or 9 mm Parabellum . )
So , many hunters do own fire arms of calibres which are not commercially imported in Bangladesh . Let us use a .375 Holland & Holland magnum calibre as an example. If someone wishes to own a .375 Holland & Holland calibre Winchester Model 70 bolt rifle , then they can go to a foreign country , purchase it and bring it back to Bangladesh after applying for a license for it , along with 250 cartridges for it . If they want ammunition for it , them they have to either go abroad , purchase the .375 Holland & Holland magnum calibre cartridges ( or ammunition components if you reload ) and bring it back into the country . Or , if they have friends or family living abroad who come to visit them in Bangladesh , they can make their friends / family members bring cartridges / re loading components for them .
On every single trip into the country , you can bring back 250 cartridges ( with the 1st 100 being duty free . ) This is how people like @Kawshik Rahman or @Captain Nwz keep themselves stocked up with ammunition. Kawshik owns a Brno zkk 600 bolt rifle , chambered in 7 × 57 mm Mauser . Captain Newaz owns a .458 Winchester magnum calibre Winchester Model 70 Safari Express bolt rifle . I do not travel abroad consistently ( maybe once a year. Maybe once in 2 years . ) and l have no family members or friends living in foreign countries who regularly make a habit of coming to Bangladesh . Thus , l learnt to make do with what is locally imported .

Alongside my old Belgian shot gun , l also own a German Wischo semi automatic 12 calibre / bore shot gun and a .22 Long Rifle calibre Austrian semi automatic rifle . Brenekk slugs ( all varieties ) are imported into Bangladesh and l do use them ( Brenekke Black Magic ) in my semi automatic payment shot gun . I , however do not use Brenekke slugs in my old Belgian shot gun , as it was made in 1959 and l do not wish to cause any strain on it . In the Belgian shot gun , l use hand loaded spherical ball cartridges , with the spherical ball being 16 calibre / bore so as to easily allow it to pass through the full choked barrel of my Belgian side by side shot gun . In 2023 , Bangladesh Shooting Federation will start importing fire arms and ammunition of the following calibres : .30-06 Springfield , .45 Automatic Colt Pistol , and 20 calibre / bore . I plan to purchase a .30-06 Springfield calibre Winchester Model 70 bolt rifle then .
We do live in a 3rd world country after all . However , l consider myself lucky that compared to other Asian countries like India ( where no imported fire arms are allowed ) or China , South Korea , Cambodia or Vietnam ( where no fire arms are allowed at all . ) , at least fire arms laws are comparatively generous .
They started importing the .22 Winchester magnum rim fire in 2015. They will start importing the .30-06 Springfield from 2023 . I believe that this is at the very least , a step in the right direction , because the different varieties of calibres for which fire arms and ammunition are being imported into Bangladesh are slowly increasing .
Fortunately , our current government body consists of many pro gun and pro hunting individuals , so l am hopeful.
I hope that this answers all your questions.

Regarding the .458 Winchester magnum , 2 people can disagree about something , but they can both be right. Your research leads you to believe that all the problems of the .458 Winchester magnum are gone .
Mine leads me to believe , that at any rate , .458 Winchester magnum is a calibre for which ammunition has a more definite shelf life compared to other calibres.