A Genuine Question : Why Is Hornady So Hated?

[sestoppelman]

That is very interesting , Sestoppelman. In another thread , it came to my knowledge that you and l both own 1 same book - " Ballistics in Perspective " written by an elephant culler in the 1980s. For all of their culling , the cullers were issued .458 Winchester magnum calibre FN Mauser bolt rifles . The ammunition were 500 grain solid metal covered Hornady bullets , loaded by a company named A Square . From my impression by reading that book , the Hornady solid bullets of the 1980s were really good.
Personally speaking , in the 1960s , when l used to guide clients for shikar in Nagpur , India , Hornady ammunition was greatly praised by my American clients. Their .375 Holland & Holland magnum calibre and .458 Winchester magnum calibre solid metal covered bullets used to have very strong jackets made from a very thick steel.

Yes, that is the bullet. Mine were hand loaded though, you could buy the bullet as a component back then. I don't have any more now, long gone.

 

[Forrest Halley]

My hatred for Hornady stems for their lack of adherance to SAAMI specifications for their FTX bullets. In order to use these bullets, which are touted as the answer to tube magazine rifles, you have to shorten the brass. So once done you are stuck with their, in my opinion, underperforming bullet. As a reloader it is a PIA especially when buying once fired brass online. Most folks that don;t reload don't know ther is a difference between everyone elses 45-70 brass and Hornady brass that was loaded with the FXT bullet.

I noticed it and then found it didn't matter the longer bullets still work well enough. I think the idea was a sound one to try and improve trajectory diverse cartridges to be a little less rainbow.

I would be cautious in using this information to draw any conclusions. As a competition shooter that fires around 15,000 rounds a year there are many factors here. Much more information is needed to place blame on what caused these failures. Considering this is something that is not commonly heard of with hornady to say the least, and the likelihood of having so many failures from only a couple boxes, I would suspect a gun issue but again cannot conclude without more data

Spot on. My favorite are the striker fired pistols with various lubrication and cleaning of the striker channel.

well after 1000's of rounds through that gun with all types of ammo and no issues outside of those boxes i am not prepared to say that it is the gun.

Would you care to grace us with the details of the make, model, and caliber of the firearm?

The VMax is my go to coyote bullets.

V-max! When it must explode and die.

Self preservation is a man's 1st duty .

Just what I want to hear the PH say! Beware the leader of the hunt wearing running shoes...
I think I'd stick a bit behind him after hearing that and keep solids handy between the fingers...either I'd stop the charge or have a head start...
It is not always necessary to out run the animal.

 

[Hogpatrol]

It is not always necessary to out run the animal.

Just the slowest guy in the hunting party.

 

[Tubby’s Canteen]

My only complaint with hornady is that there leaver evolution cases are short 2.040" instead of the standard 2.1 inch of all other 45-70 brass.

I have also seen there .325 ftx bullets fragment but that could be due to excessive volicity on my part.

 

[chashardy]

Another very interesting discussion. I have to add that my own experience with Hornady was not good either. I started practicing with Hornady DGX ammo in my 375 H&H double rifle and my Mod 70 300 winmag and after two or three boxes I tried Federal's Nosler Partition, then the Trophy Bonded Bear Claw and Swift A-Frame. All were significantly more accurate than the Hornady in my rifles. I had the same experience within the last few weeks with my new 416 Rigby. Bought a box of Hornady because it was so much cheaper than Federal for 416 Rigby, but again, after practicing with it I paid the extra money for Federal Swift A-Frame and got much tighter groups on the range.
I can't speak to small caliber or pistol ammo made by Hornady. Haven't shot any in my pistols.

 

[Longwalker]

I have a double rifle regulated with Hornady ammunition, and Hornady is the only major manufacturer who makes ammunition for the .450-400 NE 3". I experimented with several handloads before my hunt, but in the end just loaded their new 400 grain DGX Bonded load for the first shot at buffalo. The buffalo I shot was facing me, slightly angling to my right. Bullet entered the chest missing the big humerus bone, passed just over the heart through at least one lung and was lost somewhere in the rumen. There was a very obvious reaction to the shot, and he couldn't use his right front leg, but we will never know if it would have been a quickly fatal shot because the buffalo was standing 40 meters from Namibia's border with Botswana and if it made it that far it would be lost. So I not only put a solid into him from behind as he turned and ran, but so did my PH and his assistant. The entry wound from the DGX bonded bullet inside the chest cavity showed proper expansion and no fragmentation. That's all I can tell you. The other hole showing in the picture is from the North Fork cup point solid handload I shot from behind. It penetrated well, and stuck in the rear rib cage.

 

[Rum Runner]

With dangerous game, the choice of the bullet is so critical, and the cost difference is not even worth mentioning, why would anyone compromise with an inferior bullet? On my recent trip, the Swift A-Frame performed spectacularly, including a one shot kill after the bullet passed through a small tree.

 

[Hank2211]

This is actually pretty unnerving when dealing with dangerous game , Hank. Were you using factory loaded DGS and DGX ammunition or hand loaded DGS and DGX bullets ?

These were all factory loads. Handloading is a hobby I have never taken up . . . my wife suffers enough as it is!

 

[Dr Ray]

I use Hornady brass in my Remington 416. Years ago I used the 110 hollow nose Hornady in a 270 for goat hunting. Goats are hardly considered to be dangerous. The 110 grain Bullets worked very well I might add.
I have also used the 87 grain Hornady Bullets in my 243 with excellent results.
However, after reviewing AH posts over a while, I won’t risk using Hornady in the big calibers.

 

[Major Khan]

They do work with Ruger concerning new calibers they have created. The 375 Ruger would be one of their more succesful collaborations with Ruger. But they also work with others. The 6.5 Creedmoor was a collaboration with Creedmoor Sports.

While each firearm performs differently with different ammo Hornady ammo isn't meant for only one manufacturers firearms. Heck I'm not actually sure how they could even do that concerning standardized ammunition. And it wouldn't be conducive to good business. Personally I used to use Hornady Interbond ammo in my Thompson/Center Encore with very good accuracy and effectiveness on two different sheep before I switched to Barnes.

I know that Hornady is not meant for only 1 manufacturer , Ryan ! I merely thought from the gentleman's writings that he found that the Hornady ammunition performed better in Ruger fire arms and not Remington fire arms.

 

[Major Khan]

I use Hornady brass for most all my calibers and load other brand bullets with no problems. I have found it necessary to full size new brass because many are out of round at the mouth from dings, probably from handling and shipping. I haven't used Hornady bullets for dg. I like Barnes TSX. I did use Hdy ELD-X 6.5 CR 143g for pg last year. One shot kills out to 286 yards and great accuracy. All were thru and thru so no recovered bullets.

Thank you so much for your explanation , New Boomer. My personal experience from the 1960s mirrors yours exactly. Hornady used to be an extremely popular and well respected company during my time , especially among my American clients.

 

[Major Khan]

If you look through the Hornady threads, there are a couple of photos of DGS that are flattened where the lead came out the back end. This probably happened through tumbling and hitting a large bone. The question then to research for yourself is, are round headed solids more likely to tumble than flat headed solids? When you answer that question, you can start to choose a solid that works great for you.

I would encourage you to read all the Hornady/DGX threads. Look at the photos where the bullet has separated or split up. Look at the bullets that look to have mushroomed perfectly, yet sloughed off 25+% of their weight. Ask yourself, is this what you want your bullets to look like if shooting DG?

Is the new bonded DGX a good bullet and better than the old DGX? Hopefully. With A-Frame, TBBC, TSX, etc available, why even consider looking at a bullet that has proven inferior in the past? When you travel around the world. When you spend big $$$ on a DG hunt. Why skimp a few dollars on cheap ammo?

Most people that I know don't have a problem with all Hornady ammo. Just the DGS/DGX. I have used GMX with no problems.


Hornady reintroduced DGS/DGX ammo for the 404 which I appreciate. I use it for practice. It is cheap. I don't hunt with it however.

Thank you so much , Wheels. I have been looking at some of the photographs this morning on some of the threads on African Hunting forums . The photographs are disconcerting to say the least. The metal " envelopes " appear to have ruptured very badly . I would certainly feel uncomfortable using such ammunition on a gaur.

 

[Major Khan]

I noticed it and then found it didn't matter the longer bullets still work well enough. I think the idea was a sound one to try and improve trajectory diverse cartridges to be a little less rainbow.


Spot on. My favorite are the striker fired pistols with various lubrication and cleaning of the striker channel.


Would you care to grace us with the details of the make, model, and caliber of the firearm?


V-max! When it must explode and die.

Just what I want to hear the PH say! Beware the leader of the hunt wearing running shoes...
I think I'd stick a bit behind him after hearing that and keep solids handy between the fingers...either I'd stop the charge or have a head start...
It is not always necessary to out run the animal.

I am not calling myself a brave man . However , l actually was a professional shikaree for 10 years in Nagpur , India . I have guided clients on shikars for royal Bengal tigers , panthers , gaur , water buffalo , Asian Sloth Bear , wild boars and crocodiles which cannot really be called " harmless " . And l have never had 1 client even get a scratch on them . I stopped charges and l went after wounded royal Bengal tigers and man eating panthers into the thickets at night , using only a pencil torch light for illumination . I stopped charges of these dangerous animals using only a 12 calibre Belgian side by side shotgun and spherical ball cartridges . Maybe doing all that and living to tell the tale still doesn't stop me from being a coward. But l can assure you that abandoning a client is just about the last thing l would ever do. In India back in those days , a professional shikaree could actually get hanged if they let a foreign client die and our payment could be forfeited if any client got injured during a shikar.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Dear forum members ,
As l read more and more about the world of modern hunting on African Hunting forums , l have been getting increasingly curious about 1 thing . Why is the ammunition company , Hornady so loathed by most forum members ? Back in the 1960s when l used to guide clients for shikar in Nagpur , India ... Hornady used to be an extremely popular ammunition company , especially among my American clients . Their .458 Winchester magnum calibre ammunition , in particular were greatly praised . The solid metal covered bullets in .458 Winchester magnum calibre were extremely effective for shoulder shots on gaur and water buffalo . The jackets of their solid metal covered bullets used to be made from a very good , thick steel .

However , these days l cannot help , but notice that a large number of modern sports men think very poorly of Hornady ammunition . Now , l am not questioning the judgement of any of our forum members as most of you are extremely sensible and well read.
Indeed , if so many sports men are shying away from Hornady ammunition for dangerous game , then there must be a very logical reason .
Perhaps quality has deteriorated ?

What are your opinions on Hornady sporting ammunition for dangerous game , gentlemen ? I intend to use your information in an upcoming article for African Hunting forums .
Therefore , all of your input is greatly appreciated .
Yours sincerely,
Major Poton Khan ( Retired )

Ponton
I haven't used any hornaday DG loads but I do use their SST on Australian game up to the size of Sambar deer and find it an extremely effective projectile for the money. In my 22k hornet and 222 Remington I use their VMax projectiles because of the superb accuracy I get from them and the good terminal performance. A 55grain VMAX in the ear of a fallow deer brings home the venison. I have also found their interbond to be almost on par with nosler accubonds, it's just that I get better accuracy with accubonds and woodleigh in my Whelan ( hornaday don't make interbond in 35 cal) and SST does what I need without the added expense of a bonded projectiles.
That just my humble opinion.
I remember reading of Joyce Hornaday in a safari camp listening to hunters complain about the 500gn FMJ being to soft and bending on large DG. He didn't disclose who he was and went on to provide a tougher bullet for hunters needs.
Cheers friend Ponton
Bob

 

[Luvthunt]

The one conclusion Is—- we can say the sSwift AFrame is an expanding bullet that nobody has trashed.
An my usage ot Aframes in 300 Wby (200 gr) 375 HH (300) and 458 (500 gr) has been without any negative comments to make.
Van der Walt makes the only comment in his great book and that was that some people comment on the way the AFrame base below the part. expands slightly at times after impact is the only comment of a non positive nature I have heard/read.
Sorry for the non Hornady thought.

 

[Standard Velocity]

The only Hornady complaint that appears widespread and documented is the old DGX fragmenting. I am curious about the claims of DGS failure. If they fragment after tumbling then there must be better options.

Implications that they are somehow making cartridges to only be accurate in Ruger rifles are amusing. While surely their 375 Ruger and 416 Ruger cartridges are optimized for a Ruger chamber, I find it unlikely that they are somehow in cahoots to de-accurize their cartridges for the rest of the industry.

This reminds me of a discussion with my neighbor who misses quite a few deer. He replaces his rifle every couple of years with progressively more powerful cartridges. He let me in on a secret “they” won’t tell you. Apparently you can’t use Winchester ammunition in a Remington rifle. “It’ll never shoot right.” You also cannot zero your rifle 1” high at 100 yards “cause you’ll miss the entire deer.”

Regarding accuracy issues specific to Hornady, I’ve had some loadings in some cartridges with terrible accuracy and some that were quite good. Without using a chronograph and calipers I would hesitate to blame the manufacturer. Factory loaded “Match” ammo is funny to me. Tighter tolerances and greater consistency is a good thing but it’s hard for any manufacturer to have dialed in their load for every chamber and throat variation in a particular cartridge.

The hunting community has a really long memory and the suspicious nature of grumpy grandfather eyeing teenagers loitering at the gas station. If an ammo company makes a mistake it is best to strike a match, rebuild in a different state, change the phone number and get plastic surgery.

 

[Bonk]

I'm not a Hornady fanboy nor a detractor. I've used their ammo in everything from 9mm to 458Win. IMO their Critical Duty handgun ammo is excellent stuff and I use it in my CCW. I'm also a big fan of their American Whitetail rifle ammo. I've used it with outstanding results in 30-06 and 25-06. The 25-06 was spectacularly accurate in my bone stock Ruger Hawkeye (sub .5 MOA all day everyday).

I've never hunted DG so I can't comment on how effective their DG bullets are on live game but I've shot a few of boxes of their DG ammo in my M70 458Win and it's devastating on rocks and tree stumps.

When I bought my CZ550 375H&H a few years ago I also bought a couple of boxes of Hornady to go with it. The first 3 rounds through the gun fired just fine but when I picked up the brass all three cases were split. Was it a gun problem or an ammo problem? I didn't have any other ammo at that time but a few days later I bought some Remington and cautiously shot 3 rounds and those cases were just fine. OK, seems like an ammo problem so I contacted Hornady and explained what was going on. I gave them the lot # and they immediately told me "Yep, we know about that problem." They told me to send them the ammo and they would replace it. I did and they did but it took a while (2-3 months IIRC). The replacement ammo shot just fine and there wasn't any more split brass.

Now in fairness the ammo in question was a few years old and had been sitting on the shelf at the gun store. Not a lot of folks around here buy 375H&H. Hornady may have tried to recall the ammo but for some reason these couple of boxes never made it back to the factory. I did go back to the gun store to let them know so they wouldn't sell any more of it. They said they would contact Hornady to replace their stock.

Bottom line for me is any manufacturing company of any product can have a lemon every now and then. I don't hold one bad batch of 375H&H against them. OTOH, I agree with the comments about Hornady Leverevolution 45-70 brass being too short. THAT little detail would have been good to know before I bought 5 boxes intending to use the brass for reloading.

 

[Major Khan]

My only complaint with hornady is that there leaver evolution cases are short 2.040" instead of the standard 2.1 inch of all other 45-70 brass.

I have also seen there .325 ftx bullets fragment but that could be due to excessive volicity on my part.

Well , clearly a great deal of experienced sports men ( yourself included , Skinnersblade ) believe that Hornady ammunition leaves a great deal to be desired.

 

[Major Khan]

Another very interesting discussion. I have to add that my own experience with Hornady was not good either. I started practicing with Hornady DGX ammo in my 375 H&H double rifle and my Mod 70 300 winmag and after two or three boxes I tried Federal's Nosler Partition, then the Trophy Bonded Bear Claw and Swift A-Frame. All were significantly more accurate than the Hornady in my rifles. I had the same experience within the last few weeks with my new 416 Rigby. Bought a box of Hornady because it was so much cheaper than Federal for 416 Rigby, but again, after practicing with it I paid the extra money for Federal Swift A-Frame and got much tighter groups on the range.
I can't speak to small caliber or pistol ammo made by Hornady. Haven't shot any in my pistols.

I absolutely adore the Trophy Bonded Bear Claw soft point bullets and Trophy Bonded Sledge Hammer solid metal covered bullets . I got introduced to them in 1988.

 

[Major Khan]

I have a double rifle regulated with Hornady ammunition, and Hornady is the only major manufacturer who makes ammunition for the .450-400 NE 3". I experimented with several handloads before my hunt, but in the end just loaded their new 400 grain DGX Bonded load for the first shot at buffalo. The buffalo I shot was facing me, slightly angling to my right. Bullet entered the chest missing the big humerus bone, passed just over the heart through at least one lung and was lost somewhere in the rumen. There was a very obvious reaction to the shot, and he couldn't use his right front leg, but we will never know if it would have been a quickly fatal shot because the buffalo was standing 40 meters from Namibia's border with Botswana and if it made it that far it would be lost. So I not only put a solid into him from behind as he turned and ran, but so did my PH and his assistant. The entry wound from the DGX bonded bullet inside the chest cavity showed proper expansion and no fragmentation. That's all I can tell you. The other hole showing in the picture is from the North Fork cup point solid handload I shot from behind. It penetrated well, and stuck in the rear rib cage.

View attachment 325970

This performance reminds me of the Hornady .375 Holland & Holland magnum calibre and .458 Winchester magnum calibre soft point ammunition from the era of my career ( 1960s ) , Long Walker. Hornady was greatly praised by my American clients .