A Genuine Question : Why Is Hornady So Hated?

[thriller]

I would be cautious in using this information to draw any conclusions. As a competition shooter that fires around 15,000 rounds a year there are many factors here. Much more information is needed to place blame on what caused these failures. Considering this is something that is not commonly heard of with hornady to say the least, and the likelihood of having so many failures from only a couple boxes, I would suspect a gun issue but again cannot conclude without more data

I think something was wrong with the batch of ammo those boxes came from (the gun has never had this issue before or since on any types of ammo over 1000's of rounds)I just still cant get that out of my head when buying Hornady products. Also havent heard of this issue from other folks either so it was indeed strange.

 

[Witold Krzyżanowski]

I believe their original DGX series bullets is what really tarnished their name. Being an unbonded bullet there were/is many reports of bullet failure on dangerous game. Even though Hornady has made the switch to the fully bonded style I think it is a little to late for some to give them a go again for the purpose of African DG.

I agree with you.
Witold

 

[Major Khan]

While I have read of Hornady issues I have seen no pics other then Doctaris first book “ The Perfect Shot”. Some of the failed bullets he showed were Woodleighs and we know today that they are manufactured to a certain impact/velocity range.
I used Hornady round nose solids during my 1997 hunt on cape buff, both were recovered from a follow up rear end shot. One bullet hit high in the butt the second was at the base of the tail and traveled as far as the liver.We recovered both bullets. I had also used a Sledgehammer solid earlier which went thru and thru on an angle brush shot.
It appeared that the Sledgehammers gave better penetration. For info purposes that was back in the day that most solids were round nose, other then the SH.
Many folks prefer the Sledgehammers but Robertson (2nd Perfect Shot) and Van Der Walt refer to fragmentation on the bullet case. When Carter owned the company the bullets appeared to perform. The problem began when Federal modified the TBSH and TBBC. The last comment is based on reading material not on personal usage.
It is written that Federal corrected their change. Just as Hornady has.

I can personally attest about the potency of the Trophy Bonded Bear Claw soft point bullets and Trophy Bonded Sledge Hammer solid metal covered bullets , Luvhunt . An American friend introduced me to them in the 1980s. He used to own a custom built .458 Winchester magnum calibre rifle built on a Springfield Model 1903 action . He was quite fond of using Trophy Bonded Sledge Hammer solid metal covered bullets and Trophy Bonded Bear Claw soft point bullets for many large American game , bust as Kodiak bears , black bears , elk and moose.

 

[Major Khan]

In addition to the DGX failures noted above, the DGS has also exhibited poor behavior. I've seen more than a few pics of the rear end of the bullet flattening. When this happens who knows where the bullet is going to go, but likely not in a straight line as solids are intended to do. If a solid can't fully penetrate and exit a lion, you've got a problem. Ask @gizmo about his experience.

The round nose design has been around for a long time and is old. While I'm sure it's killed game, there are better designs now that provide better straight line and deeper penetration.

Hornady spends a lot of money on advertising. I'd like to see them spend less dollars on promotion and more on development of their bullets. Now having said that Hornady deserves credit, especially for keeping the large safari calibers alive. I'll be headed to the shooting range in a couple hours to shoot my .470 double. While none the bullets will be Hornady, they will be sitting in Hornady brass. It wouldn't matter what bullets are available to me if I didn't have brass to put them in.

That is most disconcerting , Phoenix Phil . My good friend and fellow forum member , @Captain Nwz owns a Winchester Model 70 bolt rifle , chambered in the .458 Winchester magnum calibre . He has plans to book a safari for a tuskless cow elephant 2 years later in South Africa . He was planning to use Hornady DGS solid metal covered 500 grain bullets for his safari. I can see why he may need to rethink his choice of bullet now.

 

[mikecatt13]

I think something was wrong with the batch of ammo those boxes came from (the gun has never had this issue before or since on any types of ammo over 1000's of rounds)I just still cant get that out of my head when buying Hornady products. Also havent heard of this issue from other folks either so it was indeed strange.

If the same ammo failed to fire in two guns, its definitely the ammo. I've seen people sure that ammo was no good, try it in another gun and it's fine. If it was 1 round, I'd blame the ammo for sure, primers have a failure rate (around 1 in a million I believe), it would be highly unlikely you got all of them in the same box. Could be something as simple as a dirty gun slowing the firing pin, or it could be stacking of tolerances such as a SLIGHTLY hard batch of primers and a SLIGHTLY weak firing pin or hammer spring, and some bad luck mixed in. I dont blame you for being gun shy, just know that as extreme as that issue is it's pretty likely that more than one factor (just the ammo) contributed to that is all. Might prevent some future issues too if there was any non-ammo factors at play to check those out even though it's worked since. Especially if it's a DG gun

 

[Major Khan]

Going after DG, I want to feel confident with my equipment.
I use Hornady for practice & roll my own Swift A-frames or use the Norma African PH loaded with Woodleigh softs & FMJ's in my 450/400, 404Jeffery & .470Ne.
The DGX bullets I recovered from my backstop in comparison to say Barnes, Swift, Peregrine & Woodleighs were dismal & all lost their cores and / or fragmented terribly. (yes I understand its not the perfect test medium, but damn, the Hornady bullets looks terrible under the same conditions as the rest)
Keep in mind these are slow calibers in comparison to the .416 Rigby or .375H&H, Id hate to think how they would perform out of those calibers.

There are just so many other quality ammunition manufacturers with far less reported failures.

Saving a few $$ coz its cheap & then putting your life / PH life at risk with a bullet that has a 50% or even 10% chance of failing is just stupid reasoning.

Thank you so much for your input , Jaws. I am speculating that in a higher velocity calibre , such as .375 Holland & Holland magnum , the DGX soft point bullet would deform even more violently.

 

[thriller]

If the same ammo failed to fire in two guns, its definitely the ammo. I've seen people sure that ammo was no good, try it in another gun and it's fine. If it was 1 round, I'd blame the ammo for sure, primers have a failure rate (around 1 in a million I believe), it would be highly unlikely you got all of them in the same box. Could be something as simple as a dirty gun slowing the firing pin, or it could be stacking of tolerances such as a SLIGHTLY hard batch of primers and a SLIGHTLY weak firing pin or hammer spring, and some bad luck mixed in. I dont blame you for being gun shy, just know that as extreme as that issue is it's pretty likely that more than one factor (just the ammo) contributed to that is all. Might prevent some future issues too if there was any non-ammo factors at play to check those out even though it's worked since. Especially if it's a DG gun

well after 1000's of rounds through that gun with all types of ammo and no issues outside of those boxes i am not prepared to say that it is the gun.

 

[Major Khan]

I have had great performance from the solids, but the old DGX is where a lot of people had failures. I read the reports and didnt want to chance it so I used A Frames.

I have read a book about elephant cullers in Zimbabwe in the 1980s who were issued .458 Winchester magnum calibre FN Mauser bolt rifles . Their ammunition was 500 grain Hornady solid metal covered bullets , loaded by the company , A Square . The cullers recovered 285 bullet heads from the dead elephants . 238 of the bullets were completely undamaged . Thank you so much for your input , Living the Dream. It matches what was written in the book.

 

[Major Khan]

IMHO,
Hornady ammunition sales in the USA dwarf their sales elsewhere and the African DG hunting segment is a small portion of the sales to African plains game hunters.
Other bullet and ammo makers sell into the DG hunting market and some users of Hornady ammo for DG have had no problems.
Therefore, there has been a huge amount of complaints, conversation, and Internet based whining in African DG hunting circles about failure of some Hornady DG bullets. Outside those circles, few hunters know or care about the fuss being raised by the vocal few. To the larger world of hunters, this fuss is much like a Texas Dust Devil and therefore ignored. Others just go buy other good products and go hunting and I suspect this is the great majority.

Personally, I use Hornady ammo and bullets in some rifles and other brands in other rifles.
From what I have read over the past two years, Hornady has addressed their DG bullet issues and the whining and complaining about the subject has subsided; the lack of complaining is deafening!

Good Hunting!

Thank you so much for your input , Crs. I should certainly hope that Hornady has remedied all the problems in their dangerous game ammunition . They were a premium brand for sporting ammunition during my time.

 

[Major Khan]

My hatred for Hornady stems for their lack of adherance to SAAMI specifications for their FTX bullets. In order to use these bullets, which are touted as the answer to tube magazine rifles, you have to shorten the brass. So once done you are stuck with their, in my opinion, underperforming bullet. As a reloader it is a PIA especially when buying once fired brass online. Most folks that don;t reload don't know ther is a difference between everyone elses 45-70 brass and Hornady brass that was loaded with the FXT bullet.

That sounds like a serious problem , Edster . It essentially means that Hornady cartridge cases would not be compatible with bullets from other companies.

 

[Major Khan]

I would be cautious in using this information to draw any conclusions. As a competition shooter that fires around 15,000 rounds a year there are many factors here. Much more information is needed to place blame on what caused these failures. Considering this is something that is not commonly heard of with hornady to say the least, and the likelihood of having so many failures from only a couple boxes, I would suspect a gun issue but again cannot conclude without more data

You are correct , mikecatt13 . Before pointing any fingers at Hornady , we should carefully attempt to trace the source of those failures to fire to pinpoint the actual reason.

 

[mikecatt13]

well after 1000's of rounds through that gun with all types of ammo and no issues outside of those boxes i am not prepared to say that it is the gun.

Agreed. But 1000s of rounds is plenty enough to fatigue springs in almost any gun. I would actually bet money that it was a batch of hard primers and a wealth firing pin or hammer spring, unless the gun was just dirty.

Not pointing the finger at the gun or its maintenance, just proposing likely possibilities so anyone reading can consider all the factors. Without having tried the ammo in another gun, replacing those springs and trying it again, or even knowing if those boxes had the same lit number it will be a mystery likely never solved. Hopefully the gun keeps operating 100% for you, if it was me I'd be spending the couple dollars to to replace those springs especially if a hunt or my life depended on it. Hard primers happen and sometimes only reveal themselves in specific guns based in many factors such as springs, firing pin length, etc

 

[Scrumbag]

My hatred for Hornady stems for their lack of adherance to SAAMI specifications for their FTX bullets. In order to use these bullets, which are touted as the answer to tube magazine rifles, you have to shorten the brass. So once done you are stuck with their, in my opinion, underperforming bullet. As a reloader it is a PIA especially when buying once fired brass online. Most folks that don;t reload don't know ther is a difference between everyone elses 45-70 brass and Hornady brass that was loaded with the FXT bullet.

I noticed this when I wanted to load up a 44 mag for deer. Seemed it lost speed at a slower rate but started with less speed so not sure what the gain was?!?

 

[thriller]

Agreed. But 1000s of rounds is plenty enough to fatigue springs in almost any gun. I would actually bet money that it was a batch of hard primers and a wealth firing pin or hammer spring, unless the gun was just dirty.

Not pointing the finger at the gun or its maintenance, just proposing likely possibilities so anyone reading can consider all the factors. Without having tried the ammo in another gun, replacing those springs and trying it again, or even knowing if those boxes had the same lit number it will be a mystery likely never solved. Hopefully the gun keeps operating 100% for you, if it was me I'd be spending the couple dollars to to replace those springs especially if a hunt or my life depended on it. Hard primers happen and sometimes only reveal themselves in specific guns based in many factors such as springs, firing pin length, etc

I have shot thousands of rounds since that happened......works great. Would like to tell me more about how the gun is worn out....

 

[Bullthrower338]

So the DGX(old style) did indeed sour the market on that bullet, myself included. But, the pro side of Hornady are many. Hornady has had the guts to produce cartridges that were on the brink of obscurity and put many of them on the market at a fair price to where the average shooter can afford to shoot them. They really did encourage a revival of some of these rounds! For this I am eternally grateful as I hate seeing great things fade away.
Hornady went against the grain of profits to stand behind the 2A by denying sales to New York Government agencies because of their anti gun stance. Kudos!
Variety of available products, not just in ammo but also reloading components and equipment. Everything I have bought has been of good quality and works as advertised. As far as the ammo selection I don’t believe any company offers the non reloader as many choices as Hornady does. From the V Max to their GMX they have it covered.
Opinions of their DGX aside, Hornady is a great company that the shooting industry owes gratitude to for their vision and forward thinking.
But yeah, I wouldn’t personally trust a DGX on my once in a lifetime hunt. Just for the fact that I don’t want to risk it being my PH’s life on the line standing next to me. We owe these guys the courtesy of bringing the best bullet available on our hunts.

 

[Mekaniks]

So the DGX(old style) did indeed sour the market on that bullet, myself included. But, the pro side of Hornady are many. Hornady has had the guts to produce cartridges that were on the brink of obscurity and put many of them on the market at a fair price to where the average shooter can afford to shoot them. They really did encourage a revival of some of these rounds! For this I am eternally grateful as I hate seeing great things fade away.
Hornady went against the grain of profits to stand behind the 2A by denying sales to New York Government agencies because of their anti gun stance. Kudos!
Variety of available products, not just in ammo but also reloading components and equipment. Everything I have bought has been of good quality and works as advertised. As far as the ammo selection I don’t believe any company offers the non reloader as many choices as Hornady does. From the V Max to their GMX they have it covered.
Opinions of their DGX aside, Hornady is a great company that the shooting industry owes gratitude to for their vision and forward thinking.
But yeah, I wouldn’t personally trust a DGX on my once in a lifetime hunt. Just for the fact that I don’t want to risk it being my PH’s life on the line standing next to me. We owe these guys the courtesy of bringing the best bullet available on our hunts.

Very well said and 100% I agree. Did you have your secretary type that for you????

 

[Bullthrower338]

Did it all myself with the help of this book!lol

 

[mikecatt13]

I have shot thousands of rounds since that happened......works great. Would like to tell me more about how the gun is worn out....

If that's all that you gathered from my posts, especially while taking offense to it, you have misunderstood and missed the point as that's definitely not what I said. Sorry that that's the case, I've done the best I can to describe my experience and guesses to try and help you and anyone else reading further diagnose the issue so you dont have it again whether it's the next round fired or years down the road. I literally watch at least a million rounds be fired every year, I've seen quite a bit of ammo and gun related issues. Was just trying to help, have a good one

 

[flatwater bill]

1. Ayatollah
2. General Suliamani (scratch that)
3. Hornady
4. Crabs
5. Adam Shxxx

I like Hornady best of the bunch. Had great dollar value with them when culling 40 years ago. Their .458 RNSP 500 grainer was a gem. So too .264 140 Spirept.
................FWB

 

[Major Khan]

So the DGX(old style) did indeed sour the market on that bullet, myself included. But, the pro side of Hornady are many. Hornady has had the guts to produce cartridges that were on the brink of obscurity and put many of them on the market at a fair price to where the average shooter can afford to shoot them. They really did encourage a revival of some of these rounds! For this I am eternally grateful as I hate seeing great things fade away.
Hornady went against the grain of profits to stand behind the 2A by denying sales to New York Government agencies because of their anti gun stance. Kudos!
Variety of available products, not just in ammo but also reloading components and equipment. Everything I have bought has been of good quality and works as advertised. As far as the ammo selection I don’t believe any company offers the non reloader as many choices as Hornady does. From the V Max to their GMX they have it covered.
Opinions of their DGX aside, Hornady is a great company that the shooting industry owes gratitude to for their vision and forward thinking.
But yeah, I wouldn’t personally trust a DGX on my once in a lifetime hunt. Just for the fact that I don’t want to risk it being my PH’s life on the line standing next to me. We owe these guys the courtesy of bringing the best bullet available on our hunts.

The way that Hornady stood up to a tyrannical government is something extremely commendable , Bullthrower338 . It shows that they care more about standing up for what they believe in , rather than taking a lucrative contract. However , yes. Just like you , l would not trust their modern dangerous game ammunition at all .