A. Francotte Mauser 10.75x68

[rookhawk]

View attachment 519782
I recently picked this rifle up in an auction, with intentions to convert it to .404 Jeffery. After conflicting opinions on doing so, I wanted to see what information I could gather about the rifle here on AH. Availability of ammunition and components initially spurred my interest in the conversion, but I don’t want to be molesting a rifle that may have more value left in its original configuration. If you have any information about this rifle, or an opinion on the 404 conversion, I’d love to hear it. I’m not completely opposed to keeping it as is, and hunting with it. So any info on the cartridge and possible procurement of reloading components would be greatly appreciated as well!
here is the description of the rifle from the auction- it may be of some use.

A. Francotte Mauser Bolt Action Sporting Rifle, #19924, 10.75mm x 68mm, 24" barrel, blued finish, top of chamber engraved with a matte finish, two-stage trigger, lever safety, ramp style front sight with removable bead and drift adjustable fixed rear sight with folding leaf for 100 & 200 yards. Barrel engraved "A Francotte a Liege" with caliber, Belgian proof marks, hinged floorplate with locking lever, checkered walnut Monte Carlo stock with cheekpiece, horn end cap, grip cap, and checkered buttplate, sling swivels mounted on barrel and rear of stock. Rare, original condition, having never been fitted with a scope. Condition is excellent retaining approx. 97% original blued finish, with wear lines from use on the bolt body, fading and light scratches on the bolt release lever spring, wear to the finish on the front action screw head, light wear and scratches on the floorplate, and light freckling on the bottom of the trigger guard. Action and safety work properly, bore is bright with light soiling which may clean to excellent. Stock is excellent with only one tiny ding near the buttplate on the left side, one or two tiny scratches, and crisp checkering. Horn buttplate shows minor insect damage, freckling, and wear to the finish on the screws. Overall, a beautiful gun showing only light use.

thank you for any and all information!
-GoldGhost

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Once rebarrelled and rechambered to 404 Jeffery you’ll have a rifle worth about $500. The work will cost you $1200 (allowing for dealing with feed issues). And of course the current $4500 gun will be lost in the process.


So you could literally just give me the gun, plus cash, and I could kick you between the legs, and you’d be dollars ahead.

An alternative would be to enjoy it for what it is, a really nice original Francotte in a dangerous game caliber that is acceptable for use on big plains game, lion and leopard.

The only things that gun really needs right now is an unraveling of the stock refinish job to get the color put back on it correctly, sanding round areas square again in the process, a nice London silvers pad, and a rework of the original bottom metal to remove the lever. (Which you save for collector value, but remove for use in the bush)

 

[rookhawk]

Here is what the finish is supposed to look like on a circa 1947-1952 A. Francotte Safari Rifle for reference. I’d love to own such a gun as yours and bring it back to where it ought to be in as original condition as possible. My soul trembles at the idea of modifying it in any manner such as reboring. Just because you paid $2400 for it at auction doesn’t mean it’s a $2400 piece of scrap to be treated as a donor action. For less than $1500 in effort to put it back the way it should be, you’d have a $6500 gun on your hands. (The one below sold for about $12,000, although it’s in a more desirable caliber and more original)

 

[rookhawk]

 

[HWL]

I believe it’s possible to get the 400 grain bullets up to 2150 fps?

1985 fps is max, according to the RWS reloading manual....
...within the CIP pressure limits of 2800 bar.
The 10,75x68 is a low pressure cartridge because of good reasons.
It works flawlessly under the worst climatic condition.
Nonetheless, Mauser M98 actions are good for 4300 bar (.375 H&H).

HWL

 

[rookhawk]

1985 fps is max, according to the RWS reloading manual....
...within the CIP pressure limits of 2800 bar.
The 10,75x68 is a low pressure cartridge because of good reasons.
It works flawlessly under the worst climatic condition.
Nonetheless, Mauser M98 actions are good for 4300 bar (.375 H&H).

HWL

I would attempt to solve the problem Pondoro described by going a different direction. IF an all copper soft could be made to fit the bore diameter I would shoot the original weight range and the original velocity using a monometal soft. This would give it suitable velocity and superior expansion, turning the gun into roughly the same performance as a 350 Rigby or a 350 Griffin & Howe, or a gun better than a .338. It would be wonderful for all plains game and would be particularly good for eland, kudu, gemsbok, and cats.

 

[Aaron N]

sanding round areas square again in the process

Are you talking around the bolt(ejection port, or whatever you’d call it)? Just wondering what details you’re picking up from the picture

 

[FlowHamed18]

PLEASE don't change anything on this gun.
Many people here would kill to achieve one of those....

Maybe there is some info you might find useful in this PDF

 

[HWL]

I would attempt to solve the problem Pondoro described by going a different direction. IF an all copper soft could be made to fit the bore diameter I would shoot the original weight range and the original velocity using a monometal soft. This would give it suitable velocity and superior expansion, turning the gun into roughly the same performance as.....

Has been done by www.gian-marchet.ch
....a swiss ammunition company.
German page, but just go to "Kaliber", and you will find 10,75x68 with all the (metric) data.

HWL

 

[rookhawk]

Are you talking around the bolt(ejection port, or whatever you’d call it)? Just wondering what details you’re picking up from the picture

The original finish has been "bleached out" by a refinish of the stock. When you look at the wood to metal fit at the top of the stock, all the sharp angles were sanded round as part of the refinishing. You can't put wood back, but since the gun has been sanded to bare wood losing all its color, I would crisp up the corners on the stock before I lay down some dark stain and then build up the grain fill to have it look properly Belgian once more.

While I was at it, I would clean up the gouges in the screws and then blue / black them once again. The horn plate is probably original (to keep weight down) and that could be kept unless the length of pull is too short, in which case I'd add a silver's pad as a period correct way to get more LOP.

The gun doesn't need very much, but work must proceed thoughtfully. A belgian mauser actioned gun isn't a valuable item as a custom. Any "customization" of an original Francotte converts a fine gun into a nothing-gun.

 

[VertigoBE]

@GoldGhost : listen to what @rookhawk has to say on this topic. His advice is worth its weight in gold in these matters.

 

[Aaron N]

The original finish has been "bleached out" by a refinish of the stock. When you look at the wood to metal fit at the top of the stock, all the sharp angles were sanded round as part of the refinishing. You can't put wood back, but since the gun has been sanded to bare wood losing all its color, I would crisp up the corners on the stock before I lay down some dark stain and then build up the grain fill to have it look properly Belgian once more.

While I was at it, I would clean up the gouges in the screws and then blue / black them once again. The horn plate is probably original (to keep weight down) and that could be kept unless the length of pull is too short, in which case I'd add a silver's pad as a period correct way to get more LOP.

The gun doesn't need very much, but work must proceed thoughtfully. A belgian mauser actioned gun isn't a valuable item as a custom. Any "customization" of an original Francotte converts a fine gun into a nothing-gun.

Valuable information as usual. After viewing the OP once, I forgot that he had added pictures below, so I was astounded by the detail I assumed you picked up from the first picture.

 

[rgsiii]

It is a beautiful gun. I assume it was bought in the US. I am always cautious with old guns after seeing what our “gunsmiths” can do. I would slug the barrel and get a chamber cast. I have had a couple of rifles rechambered with no change on the barrel labelling. If the previous owner could not find ammunition this could have happened. This happened to me with two double rifles from reputable dealers.
If everything ckecks out, I would think with a bit of effort the reloading components could be found. It may not be a rapid process.

 

[rookhawk]

It is a beautiful gun. I assume it was bought in the US. I am always cautious with old guns after seeing what our “gunsmiths” can do. I would slug the barrel and get a chamber cast. I have had a couple of rifles rechambered with no change on the barrel labelling. If the previous owner could not find ammunition this could have happened. This happened to me with two double rifles from reputable dealers.
If everything ckecks out, I would think with a bit of effort the reloading components could be found. It may not be a rapid process.

This is pretty good advice. I think the original caliber was a .422” bullet but the .404 Jeffery uses a .424” bullet If the bore was slightly oversized, Jeffery bullets may be possible which opens up a world of possibilities.

I personally suck at slugging barrels so I go with an alternative, I like to drop pin gauges down the bore to figure out the nominal bore diameter and also if there is a tight spot in an otherwise larger barrel. It’s more trustworthy for me than trying to measure lead slugs which I never measure quite right. <-My problem, others may have more skill with slugs.

 

[Doug Hamilton]

View attachment 519782
I recently picked this rifle up in an auction, with intentions to convert it to .404 Jeffery. After conflicting opinions on doing so, I wanted to see what information I could gather about the rifle here on AH. Availability of ammunition and components initially spurred my interest in the conversion, but I don’t want to be molesting a rifle that may have more value left in its original configuration. If you have any information about this rifle, or an opinion on the 404 conversion, I’d love to hear it. I’m not completely opposed to keeping it as is, and hunting with it. So any info on the cartridge and possible procurement of reloading components would be greatly appreciated as well!
here is the description of the rifle from the auction- it may be of some use.

A. Francotte Mauser Bolt Action Sporting Rifle, #19924, 10.75mm x 68mm, 24" barrel, blued finish, top of chamber engraved with a matte finish, two-stage trigger, lever safety, ramp style front sight with removable bead and drift adjustable fixed rear sight with folding leaf for 100 & 200 yards. Barrel engraved "A Francotte a Liege" with caliber, Belgian proof marks, hinged floorplate with locking lever, checkered walnut Monte Carlo stock with cheekpiece, horn end cap, grip cap, and checkered buttplate, sling swivels mounted on barrel and rear of stock. Rare, original condition, having never been fitted with a scope. Condition is excellent retaining approx. 97% original blued finish, with wear lines from use on the bolt body, fading and light scratches on the bolt release lever spring, wear to the finish on the front action screw head, light wear and scratches on the floorplate, and light freckling on the bottom of the trigger guard. Action and safety work properly, bore is bright with light soiling which may clean to excellent. Stock is excellent with only one tiny ding near the buttplate on the left side, one or two tiny scratches, and crisp checkering. Horn buttplate shows minor insect damage, freckling, and wear to the finish on the screws. Overall, a beautiful gun showing only light use.

thank you for any and all information!
-GoldGhost

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According to "Cartridges of the World, 16th Edition"
"Bullet diameter is .424 inch. Ammunition is available from Old West Scrounger, and Barnes offers bukkets. buffalo arms Co. also sells die sets."

Hope this helps.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

The lever latch floor plate release system is a dead giveaway that your rifle was made pre 2nd World War.

I have seen dozens of these Auguste Francotte 10.75x68mm Mauser rifles in the former Belgian Congo. They were exported there in bulk, as affordable bush veldt rifles for farmers and non professional hunters.

The low case capacity combined with the anaemic sectional density make it a poor performer on dangerous game. Modern bullets and propellant powders have made things somewhat better, but enough to warrant it is a serious dangerous game rifle.

It’s not a suitable caliber for Cape buffalo. And you can absolutely forget about using it on elephant. It’s okay for lion and leopard. Great for warthogs, bush pigs and most plains game.

Sean Flynn (son of actor, Errol Flynn) brought a 10.75x68mm Mauser (made by F.N Browning) to hunt a Royal Bengal tiger in the Sundarban mangrove forests in 1966. He was using I.C.I Kynoch 347Gr soft points (which were being loaded with Norma components at the time). He wounded the animal with a shot from a macchan (by sitting up over a natural Axis deer kill which the tiger had returned to for completing feeding), but it got away and eventually was killed by a gun trap set by the Gazi brothers 2 days later. A postmortem showed that the 347Gr soft point bullet had been found lodged in the very shoulder bone which Mr. Flynn had fired at. It had broken but failed to penetrate the scapula.

In Kenya (1974), a resident hunter I befriended was using an original Mauser Oberndorf in this caliber with quite successful results against livestock killing leopards. He also used it successfully on loads of plains game, although he recounts losing most of the bull elands which he shot with it. At the time, he was using an old stock of I.C.I Kynoch 347Gr split point ammunition in the rifle. I shot a bush pig with it and also fired it for target practice. I found the trajectory to be somewhat high.

Today, bullets may be acquired from C.E.B (Cutting Edge Bullets). They make a 325Gr Raptor hollow point and a 350Gr Safari Solid (both monometal).

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

The lever latch floor plate release system is a dead giveaway that your rifle was made pre 2nd World War.

I have seen dozens of these Auguste Francotte 10.75x68mm Mauser rifles in the former Belgian Congo. They were exported there in bulk, as affordable bush veldt rifles for farmers and non professional hunters.

The low case capacity combined with the anaemic sectional density make it a poor performer on dangerous game. Modern bullets and propellant powders have made things somewhat better, but enough to warrant it is a serious dangerous game rifle.

It’s not a suitable caliber for Cape buffalo. And you can absolutely forget about using it on elephant. It’s okay for lion and leopard. Great for warthogs, bush pigs and most plains game.
View attachment 519905
Sean Flynn (son of actor, Errol Flynn) brought a 10.75x68mm Mauser (made by F.N Browning) to hunt a Royal Bengal tiger in the Sundarban mangrove forests in 1966. He was using I.C.I Kynoch 347Gr soft points (which were being loaded with Norma components at the time). He wounded the animal with a shot from a macchan (by sitting up over a natural Axis deer kill which the tiger had returned to for completing feeding), but it got away and eventually was killed by a gun trap set by the Gazi brothers 2 days later. A postmortem showed that the 347Gr soft point bullet had been found lodged in the very shoulder bone which Mr. Flynn had fired at. It had broken but failed to penetrate the scapula.

View attachment 519906
In Kenya (1974), a resident hunter I befriended was using an original Mauser Oberndorf in this caliber with quite successful results against livestock killing leopards. He also used it successfully on loads of plains game, although he recounts losing most of the bull elands which he shot with it. At the time, he was using an old stock of I.C.I Kynoch 347Gr split point ammunition in the rifle. I shot a bush pig with it and also fired it for target practice. I found the trajectory to be somewhat high.

Today, bullets may be acquired from C.E.B (Cutting Edge Bullets). They make a 325Gr Raptor hollow point and a 350Gr Safari Solid (both monometal).

I believe you can get 400 grain bullets to 2150 so exactly the same ballistics as a 404 Jeffery loaded to said fps so definitely ok for DG

 

[rgsiii]

Looking at the Woodleigh’s and a couple of German reloading manuals, they seem to indicate 0.423 bullet diameters. One loading was for 0.422.

If you need some loading information, I have some.

 

[Pondoro]

10.75 x 68 was succesfully used on moose here in Scandinavia..RWS made ammo into the 80´s..

I have shot the original Oberndorf Mauser in this caliber, they are relatively light for caliber so recoil is quite brisk..rifle was made 1908. Kynoch made both soft and solid ammo well into the sixties for these..

 

[Monsai52]

I attended the auction and looked at this rifle. A beautiful gun that I don't think had been messed with very much except the probably refinished stock, not even drilled and tapped for a scope; nice old school gun. Two things kept me from bidding, one was the likely refinished stock, the other was that there were a couple of other items later in the auction that I was more interested in, and not enough coin for everything.

Best regards,

 

[PerH]

I believe it’s possible to get the 400 grain bullets up to 2150 fps?

Yes i think it say so,i will look i up tomorrow .