A Death Of Ethics: Is “Hunting” Destroying Itself?

[JimP]

Speaking of loss of ethics here is a good example of it that I came across concerning the Ute Tribal Lands in Utah.

After ‘disrespectful violations,’ Ute Tribe terminates all nontribal hunting, fishing permits

After a series of “disrespectful violations,” the Ute Indian Tribe of Utah is taking the rare step to suspend all fishing and hunting permits for outsiders to recreate on its lands.

www.sltrib.com

 

[TheAngloPrussian]

Wasn't Goring a geisha cross-dresser as well, though?

As far as I know, that's a completely unsubstantiated rumor. Göring did like dressing extremely well (one might even say flamboyantly) but it was always in custom uniforms, hunting outfits, etc.

 

[TheAngloPrussian]

Y'know, I've wondered the same thing. A friend of mine is just n his late 90s. He was a guard at Nuremburg. I told him I'd heard that Goring spoke English. He said, "Oh yeah, Herman spoke good English!" My friend speaks English, German, French and Norwegen. He said that's why they made him a guard at the trials.

That's absolutely nuts! Quite a friend to have.

 

[Doug Hamilton]

Wasn't Goring a geisha cross-dresser as well, though?

I haven't heard that one, but nothing about the Nazis would surprise me. Just like nothing about the pro Hamas protesters surprises me. Same people, just different generations.

 

[Doug Hamilton]

That's absolutely nuts! Quite a friend to have.

Yes, the man is a piece of living history. He landed on the beach on D-Day, became a tank commander, killed a Panzer with it, and was part of the liberating force at Bucanwold (sp?) the death camp, before becoming a guard at Nuremburg. We are supposed to see him next month at the veterans home next month, but the daughter of his late "lady friend" to it me his memory is going now. In any case, I feel honored to have known him.

 

[tigris115]

So, the reason that I made this thread was that, I feel that a lot of people just have a massive seething hatred for wolves and other predators.

Especially on the internet, I've seen a lot of people make comments about how wolves are murdering everything and how they need to be made extinct and I'm like "Damn bro, cool story ig"

Obviously I have no real idea of what the culture out west is as I'm not from there and the most I went was to dig up some dinosaur cones with school but I do feel that the attitude people have against wolves can be a little ridiculous.

 

[HankBuck]

So, the reason that I made this thread was that, I feel that a lot of people just have a massive seething hatred for wolves and other predators.

Especially on the internet, I've seen a lot of people make comments about how wolves are murdering everything and how they need to be made extinct and I'm like "Damn bro, cool story ig"

Obviously I have no real idea of what the culture out west is as I'm not from there and the most I went was to dig up some dinosaur cones with school but I do feel that the attitude people have against wolves can be a little ridiculous.

@tigris115: a read of your Post indicates, to me, that you are Not a Hunter and accept it “if it proves” to help conservation - as if Hunting must accomplish something measurable to be justified. Not sure what you position is on Wolves but appears very supportive of their reintroduction and challenges hunting them or reducing their current numbers in the U.S. —- those are my “guesses” based of very little info except a few posts you’e made here. Don’t think it matters either way and neither does my opinion. I have made 11 trips to Montana, Wyoming, & Idaho over the past 26 years and spent a total of “only” 20 weeks in those 3 States plus another month in Alaska and British Columbia. In those areas, every Rancher, Guide, and resident Hunter had a strong dislike of Wolves and some seemed to hate them. They had first hand experiance that formed their opinions: Lost cattle, horses, or saw Elk & mule deer populations decline after the Wolf reintroduction. I don’t share all of their opinions but I “respect them”. They have real life experiences with wolves and have suffered consequence's — I believe their opinion counts more then mine. There is a reason that Wolves were exterminated from the continental US in the 1800s, it was not an accident and not an emotional response to “preceived” threats —- too much time, effort, and $$ was put into getting rid of them…it wasn’t for sport or hate or ignorance — wolves competed with Ranchers & people and made their lives more difficult. I would still like to see some wolves survive in some parts of the U.S. but that’s easy for me to say — I don’t have to live around them

 

[Cheesehead]

@tigris115: a read of your Post indicates, to me, that you are Not a Hunter and accept it “if it proves” to help conservation - as if Hunting must accomplish something measurable to be justified. Not sure what you position is on Wolves but appears very supportive of their reintroduction and challenges hunting them or reducing their current numbers in the U.S. —- those are my “guesses” based of very little info except a few posts you’e made here. Don’t think it matters either way and neither does my opinion. I have made 11 trips to Montana, Wyoming, & Idaho over the past 26 years and spent a total of “only” 20 weeks in those 3 States plus another month in Alaska and British Columbia. In those areas, every Rancher, Guide, and resident Hunter had a strong dislike of Wolves and some seemed to hate them. They had first hand experiance that formed their opinions: Lost cattle, horses, or saw Elk & mule deer populations decline after the Wolf reintroduction. I don’t share all of their opinions but I “respect them”. They have real life experiences with wolves and have suffered consequence's — I believe their opinion counts more then mine. There is a reason that Wolves were exterminated from the continental US in the 1800s, it was not an accident and not an emotional response to “preceived” threats —- too much time, effort, and $$ was put into getting rid of them…it wasn’t for sport or hate or ignorance — wolves competed with Ranchers & people and made their lives more difficult. I would still like to see some wolves survive in some parts of the U.S. but that’s easy for me to say — I don’t have to live around them

Fun fact about wolves. There are more wolves in Minnesota than in any other state beside Alaska. The Great Lakes region is home to more wolves than the rest of the lower 48 combined. Yet, based on a ruling from some judge in DC who has likely never seen a wolf in the wild, wolves in the great lakes region remain federally protected. That's the type of thing that really turns people against wolves. Instead of letting biologists manage the population responsibly, politicians and bureaucrats decide what's best for us from a 1000 miles away.

 

[Tam Dl]

Hello, @Tam Dl - perhaps I'm mistaken, in which case I preemptively apologize, but from your post you sound like someone who's either never really hunted, who has a somewhat prejudicial view of the activity, or both. Many of your statements lead me to speculate that.

Not that there's anything wrong with being a non-hunter (or even an anti-hunter) but if my reading is correct, I find it curious that you would post on a hunting forum mostly about Africa. Speaking of anecdotal evidence, I share my African adventures with hundreds of people--many of whom are non- or outright anti-hunters. I was never required to justify myself (see your next-to-last paragraph)--actually, in most cases the desire to know about my adventure (something few people in the West will ever do) far outstrips their aversion to hunting. At most, I am asked "what do you do with the animal? Do you eat it?" and a simple "yes" puts the thing to rest.

Far be it from me to be argumentative, and I hope you don't read my post as such. You are polite and respectful, and I hope this doesn't come across as contentious.

You don't actually say what makes you think I don't hunt, or whatever you are talking about. I will guess the trigger is my statement that:

"In the current environment, it is almost impossible to justify traveling to Africa to hunt, and it is probably better not to mention it..."

A simple example would be Trump's attempt to get Ivory importation onto a more rational basis, for hunters. The cheers of support from across the land where not deafening. There was a time when you could make movies about African hunting and when it was regarded as a manly activity. The whole hunting industry is somewhat reminiscent of the days when they used to sell dirty books in brown paper wrappers. You don't see the products advertised in the windows of travel agents; there do not seem to be cover stories of glamorous hunting trips on the cover of non-specialty magazines. One goes to special shows and meets with outfitters. I know they probably aren't available, but I would love to see figures that indicate that people who travel to Africa to go on "safari" are highly regarded compared to domestic hunters. I would be happy to be wrong.

Thank you for your carefully considered remarks.

(I do hunt)

 

[Tam Dl]

So, the reason that I made this thread was that, I feel that a lot of people just have a massive seething hatred for wolves and other predators.

Especially on the internet, I've seen a lot of people make comments about how wolves are murdering everything and how they need to be made extinct and I'm like "Damn bro, cool story ig"

Obviously I have no real idea of what the culture out west is as I'm not from there and the most I went was to dig up some dinosaur cones with school but I do feel that the attitude people have against wolves can be a little ridiculous.

I think you need something more than a "feeling". Hunters are pretty passionate about dogs, which are related to wolves, and obviously predators. hunting is predation. Personally, I like cats and enjoy watching them get busy.

I you listen to environmentalist talk about the re-introduction of wolves, they think it is a major step, and that it will enormously modify everything about the natural environment. They wax poetic about how it can change the physical landscape even.

If you live in wolf country someone in ranching, outfitting, property ownership, or own pets, or even small children, and are going to see the progress of the last 100+ years, as they might see it, reversed, you are going to see it differently. They are living with the reality of what is being changed. And they will not all think alike, either.

 

[Tam Dl]

Some of you are probably aware that SCOTUS just reversed the Chevron Doctrine. This earlier decision by the Supreme Court created the administrative state of today, that can just get an idea in it's head, and then the bureaucracy just goes ahead with rule making. I suspect that once this filters through to the level of the land, that initiatives like wolf restoration could take a hit. There does seem to be some legislative foundation under endangered species legislation but often that reliance has been a stretch. A lot of the actions seem to be unilateral, and more recently at state levels.

Apparently at the state level courts rely heavily on the Chevron Doctrine and settle almost always for the agencies that are being sued. At the level of the supreme court, Chevron has been used less as it is understood that SCOTUS wants to see a legislative framework.

I just thought I would throw that in there in case we are collectively writing a term paper, or educating Chat GPT.

 

[BlueFlyer]

Personally I find the treatment of that wolf abhorrent. If you are going to take an animals life then do it as humanely as possible.
Then the jerk is stupid enough to post the video. In this day and age you need to be very careful what you post online. Reguardless of what we think, it is what the general public think that will determine our future access to hunt.

 

[tigris115]

Personally I find the treatment of that wolf abhorrent. If you are going to take an animals life then do it as humanely as possible.
Then the jerk is stupid enough to post the video. In this day and age you need to be very careful what you post online. Reguardless of what we think, it is what the general public think that will determine our future access to hunt.

Yeah I think purposeful torture of an animal is where you have to put your foot down.

Any animal taken by a hunter should be taken as ethically as possible. As well, in arguments about the role of the state vs. feds about conservation of species, people will immediately point to this as an example of how states can't be trusted. Not saying that's my opinion but I think that, in the modern age of hunting, optics is something to be seriously considered

 

[Hunting Hitman]

I’ve seen the devastation that wolves cause cattle and sheep ranchers. Typically in liberal states that don’t allow or greatly impact your ability to cull them.
Sorry not sorry…shoot, shovel, and shut up.

HH

 

[Hunter-Habib]

"It's incredibly easy to perceive any problem as trivial when it's not YOUR problem".

- President Ershad

 

[BlueFlyer]

I’ve seen the devastation that wolves cause cattle and sheep ranchers.

We run a beef farm that backs onto state forest. In the last couple of years a family of dingoes has taken up residence. They are giving the kangaroos and Sambar deer a bit of curry but they are ignoring the larger Angus cattle. The cattle show no concern and no interest when the dingoes are actively hunting kangaroos.
If that all changes and the dingoes start to target calves then they will be humanely shot, they will not be tortured. And I will not be posting a video.

 

[tigris115]

We run a beef farm that backs onto state forest. In the last couple of years a family of dingoes has taken up residence. They are giving the kangaroos and Sambar deer a bit of curry but they are ignoring the larger Angus cattle. The cattle show no concern and no interest when the dingoes are actively hunting kangaroos.
If that all changes and the dingoes start to target calves then they will be humanely shot, they will not be tortured. And I will not be posting a video.

So, ooc, how do the kangaroos and sambar affect cattle grazing? I imagine they provide some competition as well as some disease risk with the sambar since both them and cattle are ruminants.

Also, what are ways that ranchers in Australia keep dingoes at bay?

 

[SFRanger7GP]

Although I may use different methods for predators and invasive species, when it is time to kill, it must be like the kill was made with Thor’s hammer. Swiftly, humanely and with respect for the animal.

Safe hunting

 

[BlueFlyer]

how do the kangaroos and sambar affect cattle grazing?

The Sambar are no problem as they are browsers, and if anything are benefical as they eat the woody weeds- plus they are good eating.
The Kangaroos being native and given they directly compete with the cattle are a much bigger problem. There are government licenced hunters that can cull the roos. We had 450 taken off one property last year and you can hardly notice the difference, there are still 1,000s. And this gets to the point of public perception. Currently globally there is a campaign against all the fooball boot manufactures to stop using K-Leather (Kangaroo Leather) Which is a totally sustainable natural product and replace it with a synthetic hydrocarbon based inferior alternative - logic has nothing to do with it, it is all emotional. If we don't recognise and accept that emotional public campaigns could be the demise of our sport then we are naive. We must not condone any inhumane actions if we want our sport to continue.
After that rant. Here is how dingoes are controlled.

In my state Dingoes are protected, but wild dogs are vermin.

 

[tigris115]

We must not condone any inhumane actions if we want our sport to continue.

This is a rly big crux of what I'm saying. If inhumane methods of killing predators continue to be allowed, the hammer will be brought down.