A Case of Use Enough Gun?

[Ontario Hunter]

I am fighting upstream on some of this, but truly believe bullet diameter and weight is too heavily relied upon by some, when faster TINY bullets can be stone cold killers. I have a .22/6mm (.224 TTH) that I would feel comfortable shooting any whitetail or mule deer with out to 200 yards or so with when loaded with .55 gr. TTSX. Same with .224 Weatherby. I had a .240 Weatherby that I was also quite comfortable with. These fast and light projectiles are poor choices where any brush may come into play. However, many very proficient hunters/shooters like to use them/similar chamberings and are deadly with them.

I am completely with you that I like two holes for every time I pull the trigger. I have hunted places so thick that if the deer ran 20 yards off the road/sendero that it made for a mess at times.

I think the .243 Win. Is not a great choice for deer, but the .243 Catbird, for example, is an awesome choice (with proper bullet). Again, it goes against the grain, but if using a .243 Win for deer, I would even go with lighter bullets and go for the added speed (without getting into a SD discussion).

I got a .30-.378 when I was 18 and killed a lot of animals with it. I still hunt quite often with a .340 Weatherby. My go to rifles are in .300 Jarrett, simply because they are truly 1/4 MOA rifles, and are devastating. I have hunted with a lot of other rifles as well, but would not feel under gunned with .224 TTH for hunting in many situations. This being stated, I would rather hunt with the TTH or even .220 Swift than the .243 Win. . My rambling insomnia induced point is don’t forget the speed component.

I'm not sure I see the necessity for 1/4 MOA when shooting deer at 200 yards. Sorry, but no one will ever convince me 55 gr is enough bullet for mule deer. Downside to hyperspeed bullets is the splatter factor at close range. Hyperspeed tiny bullets tend to go off track after impact. I feel an obligation to avoid wasting meat when I kill a deer. That means not blowing extra holes in it because it doesn't fall down instantly. That means ensuring a shot placed behind the shoulder doesn't exit out a rear ham. That means avoiding unnecessary bloodshot.

A few years back my buddy shot a nice mule deer buck the day before I arrived in Montana. He'd shot it with his 45-70 Marlin. I chuckled, "Sure you're using enough gun?" He chuckled back. "Why don't you help me skin it tonight." I was amazed. Big hole in behind front shoulder, big hole out behind opposite shoulder. NO BLOODSHOT. Almost none anyway. The definition of a clean kill. I'm not sure my 30-06 has ever done as clean a job. Needless to say that buck dropped on the spot.

 

[Altitude sickness]

The deer pictured shows where the spine is at the rear. The shoulder blade and shoulder muscle hide the spine towards the front.

But unless this deers spine is unique. And it could be. The spine dips dramatically at the front. The ribs narrow dramatically like a bow of a ship and the spine and sternum angle up and down respectively.

The chest cavity is at negative pressure. The lungs have no mechanism to inflate or deflate by themselves. The diaphragm is a muscle which pulls rearward to inflate the lungs.

An animal or human can live a short while with a hole in the chest. IF something covers or blocks the hole. Saranwrap for humans and fat and hair for animals. Every inhalation draws air into the chest cavity and won’t allow the lungs to inflate.

If something covered a very small hole FMJ type hole

it is feasible. But not likely that it could possibly survive. There would also be little blood to follow.

 

[Dhutson]

Real hunters are ethical hunters. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. Have a little respect for the trophy. Stop giving the rest of us a bad name.

 

[RR 314]

I'm not sure I see the necessity for 1/4 MOA when shooting deer at 200 yards. Sorry, but no one will ever convince me 55 gr is enough bullet for mule deer. Downside to hyperspeed bullets is the splatter factor at close range. Hyperspeed tiny bullets tend to go off track after impact. I feel an obligation to avoid wasting meat when I kill a deer. That means not blowing extra holes in it because it doesn't fall down instantly. That means ensuring a shot placed behind the shoulder doesn't exit out a rear ham. That means avoiding unnecessary bloodshot.

A few years back my buddy shot a nice mule deer buck the day before I arrived in Montana. He'd shot it with his 45-70 Marlin. I chuckled, "Sure you're using enough gun?" He chuckled back. "Why don't you help me skin it tonight." I was amazed. Big hole in behind front shoulder, big hole out behind opposite shoulder. NO BLOODSHOT. Almost none anyway. The definition of a clean kill. I'm not sure my 30-06 has ever done as clean a job. Needless to say that buck dropped on the spot.

1/4 MOA certainly is not needed for hunting, but it sure is nice to have the utmost confidence in you rifle.

In the small and fast vs big and slow debate, I generally opt for neither of the above. I go with the Elmer Keith answer—big and fast

i don’t always go “small”, but when I do, I go fast. Another reason to shoot hyper accurate rifles is to shoot where you aim. From memory, I have never had a small bullet exit anywhere other than where I anticipated it would. Not saying it doesn’t happen, just saying well placed shots should act as anticipated.

I should have stayed out of this discussion, but the bottom line for me is well placed and thought out shots with proper bullets are to be chiefly valued over ill advised or poorly executed shots and placement notwithstanding the chambering of the rifle doing the placement.

 

[MS 9x56]

My first Mannlicher stocked rifle was a Ruger 77 RSI in you guessed it 243 caliber. It was our poison on woodchucks and coyotes. I took 2 bucks with it both heart shots and both fell within sight of my stand. My issue with the 243 was that despite being heart shot neither bullet (remington 100 grain core locs) exited and there was no blood trail to either deer. Clearly the 243 is capable of killing deer however the performance was not what I required. I much prefer holes both entering and exiting, aiding if tracking is required. I then traded the 243 in for an RSI in 250-3000 savage which I have been wholly satisfied with. Just one old hunters experience. I will never use a 243 on big game again.

 

[HankBuck]

Your poacher obviously did not care how many deer he buggered up with a .22 that wandered off and died a slow death. Assholes like that, and their methods, don't count for shit.

@Ontario Hunter - there is (or was) a company called “White Buffalo” that was hired to eradicate an over population of deer in parts of NJ - Princeton being one area about 12-15 years ago. They were paid $300 for each deer they killed, they did most shooting at night, and All used .223 and night hunting equipment, many shots when close to houses they took Head Shots and I was told that was more to “drop deer on the spot” so they didn’t run and die on some Millionaires yard. In more open areas they placed shots in the easiest vital area they had for a sure kill. They were very effective and were paid $1000s to do something that Bow Hunters would’ve been happy to do for FREE —- Bow Hunters even tried to lobby the State for the privilege and offered to PAY THE STATE for permits (generating revenue for the State) to Bow hunt within the Park, County, Private properties that White Buffalo was allowed to shoot. But, they were denied and that’s New Jersey —- spend money rather then make money. An example - albeit an isolated and poor one - that even a .223 is extremely effective on deer when good shot placement is made.

 

[HankBuck]

@steve white
Read on my son, my new years resolution is to try and be nicer to 243 users. We will see how long I can last.
Bob

@Bob Nelson 35Whelen - what a “rotten” New Year’s resolution and if I see any “nice, kind, gentle posts” coming from “@Bob Nelson” then I will be reporting your computer has been HACKED !! It has taken you years and 1000s of posts to earn your reputation…don’t throw it all away just because you drank too many Foster’s on New Years Eve !

 

[Ontario Hunter]

@Ontario Hunter - there is (or was) a company called “White Buffalo” that was hired to eradicate an over population of deer in parts of NJ - Princeton being one area about 12-15 years ago. They were paid $300 for each deer they killed, they did most shooting at night, and All used .223 and night hunting equipment, many shots when close to houses they took Head Shots and I was told that was more to “drop deer on the spot” so they didn’t run and die on some Millionaires yard. In more open areas they placed shots in the easiest vital area they had for a sure kill. They were very effective and were paid $1000s to do something that Bow Hunters would’ve been happy to do for FREE —- Bow Hunters even tried to lobby the State for the privilege and offered to PAY THE STATE for permits (generating revenue for the State) to Bow hunt within the Park, County, Private properties that White Buffalo was allowed to shoot. But, they were denied and that’s New Jersey —- spend money rather then make money. An example - albeit an isolated and poor one - that even a .223 is extremely effective on deer when good shot placement is made.

I'm sure if they'd allowed the bow hunters to have at it, there would have been a lot of deer expiring on billionaires' front lawns. If it had been my decision, I would have done the same. Let experts take out the deer at night with supressed rifle headshots and spotlights. .223 bullets will self destruct on impact ... whether the deer's head or a tree leaf if the shot misses. In the hands of a professional marksman in those conditions (spotlighting) a teeny gun would be ideal for urban culling.

 

[DG870]

I’ll again bring up the different sizes of deer in the US. This page is from the Montana
Wildlife division with recorded weights of animals harvested. Record mule deer weight 453 pounds - what gun do you want to bring? I’d rather prepare for the biggest I’d encounter, not the smallest. What may be adequate in the south would not be ideal as you move north. All hunting, like politics is local.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I’ll again bring up the different sizes of deer in the US. This page is from the Montana
Wildlife division with recorded weights of animals harvested. Record mule deer weight 453 pounds - what gun do you want to bring? I’d rather prepare for the biggest I’d encounter, not the smallest. What may be adequate in the south would not be ideal as you move north. All hunting, like politics is local.

View attachment 655896

When I was overseas in the Army early 70s, Dad sent me a clipping from a local Montana paper. That fall there was a "big buck" contest down at Ennis. The prize was substantial but can't recall exactly what. I do remember the top two contenders were just over 400 lbs and judges were checking the bucks' throats for concealed weight. Obviously the animals must have been weighed dressed out. Muleys can get big, especially in the mountains.

 

[HankBuck]

I’ll again bring up the different sizes of deer in the US. This page is from the Montana
Wildlife division with recorded weights of animals harvested. Record mule deer weight 453 pounds - what gun do you want to bring? I’d rather prepare for the biggest I’d encounter, not the smallest. What may be adequate in the south would not be ideal as you move north. All hunting, like politics is local.

View attachment 655896

When I was overseas in the Army early 70s, Dad sent me a clipping from a local Montana paper. That fall there was a "big buck" contest down at Ennis. The prize was substantial but can't recall exactly what. I do remember the top two contenders were just over 400 lbs and judges were checking the bucks' throats for concealed weight. Obviously the animals must have been weighed dressed out. Muleys can get big, especially in the mountains.

@Ontario Hunter - I guess those “White Buffalo” guys are considered professional because they “got paid” to kill deer on a depradatrion permit but they don’t shoot any better then many guys on this form - no extra skill needed to shoot a deer at night, with lights, over a bait pile and they had no “adrenaline” to deal with that trophy hunter sometimes must control - NJ has many bow hunters and bow kills are 4x the number of shotgun & muzzleloader kills (no rifles allowed). Bow hunters would’ve easily controlled that over population and paid the State to do so —-but as you mention: they would’ve had to avoid some of the suburban home areas as a dead deer in someones driveway might not be appreciated. It’s an example of NJ wasting $$ and being less hunter friendly then most States.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

@Bob Nelson 35Whelen - what a “rotten” New Year’s resolution and if I see any “nice, kind, gentle posts” coming from “@Bob Nelson” then I will be reporting your computer has been HACKED !! It has taken you years and 1000s of posts to earn your reputation…don’t throw it all away just because you drank too many Foster’s on New Years Eve !

@HankBuck
I didn't say I wouldn't give them a hard time or try and re-educate them, just that I would try and be a bit nicer.
People that use that horrible little over hyped cartridge for anything other than very, very small game need to learn the facts of life. IT AINT A REAL HUNTING ROUND.
Be warned they will still get my full wrath but I will try and put it nicely. The harsh words don't seem to be making any difference. People are still using it and thinking it will work when common sense says it won't
Unfortunately common sense doesn't appear to be to common nowadays.
A boss once asked me why I was getting angry at work lately.
I told him to stop sending me idiots to work with. They have no common sense and can't think for them selves.
Bob

 

[pilar]

“‘IT AINT A REAL HUNTING ROUND“”
.243win & 6mm rem It’s not half ars bad if you don’t run those aluminum foil jacketed SST & ELD X or M ( and stay away from inconsistent & false FPS factory loads)
That explodes on contact, ( but that’s a whole different argument on terminal hyperbolic lunincy of mono & bonded vs extreme explosive bullets)
I’m definitely not a fan of the small caliber with heavy for caliber trend, but do have some experience with deer and hogs with the 6mm ( minimum In lots of states)

 

[Badboymelvin]

I'm a massive fan of the .243... and if I'm hunting where there is no Sambar (the .243 is not legal for Sambar in Victoria), my short 18" barrelled Mauser 98 in .243 that weighs 6.5lb is the rifle that 99% of the time accompanies me.

It's obviously a slow day here, and I've just finished reading all 8 pages of this thread... at least it was entertaining!

It just goes to show that certain cartridges like the .243, .458WM and 6.5 Creedmoor generate a lot of emotion around them... and everyone's entitled to their opinion

Russ

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I'm a massive fan of the .243... and if I'm hunting where there is no Sambar (the .243 is not legal for Sambar in Victoria), my short 18" barrelled Mauser 98 in .243 that weighs 6.5lb is the rifle that 99% of the time accompanies me.

It's obviously a slow day here, and I've just finished reading all 8 pages of this thread... at least it was entertaining!

It just goes to show that certain cartridges like the .243, .458WM and 6.5 Creedmoor generate a lot of emotion around them... and everyone's entitled to their opinion

Russ

@Badboymelvin
Russ
Put that thing over a chronograph and you will cry. It won't be anywhere near what the advertising says it is. Even an old SMLE No1 action 303-25 will give it a run for its money at its low pressure.
Bob

 

[Badboymelvin]

@Badboymelvin
Russ
Put that thing over a chronograph and you will cry. It won't be anywhere near what the advertising says it is. Even an old SMLE No1 action 303-25 will give it a run for its money at its low pressure.
Bob

Bob,
l handload for it so l have chronographed it.
I'm using the 87gn V-Max and I'm averaging just a fraction under 2900fps which l think is pretty good considering it's being fired out of a 18" barrel.
I've never had any factory ammo live up to it's box claimed velocity...

Russ

 

[DLSJR]

If you want to go meat hunting and wait for perfect shots I think you can ethically use a smaller marginal cartridge. If you want to go trophy hunting and take less than perfect shots when they are presented I think you need to take a proper cartridge. I hate hearing these type stories.

This is Part of why I’m often hunting with my .338, no matter what I’m hunting.

 

[HankBuck]

@HankBuck
I didn't say I wouldn't give them a hard time or try and re-educate them, just that I would try and be a bit nicer.
People that use that horrible little over hyped cartridge for anything other than very, very small game need to learn the facts of life. IT AINT A REAL HUNTING ROUND.
Be warned they will still get my full wrath but I will try and put it nicely. The harsh words don't seem to be making any difference. People are still using it and thinking it will work when common sense says it won't
Unfortunately common sense doesn't appear to be to common nowadays.
A boss once asked me why I was getting angry at work lately.
I told him to stop sending me idiots to work with. They have no common sense and can't think for them selves.
Bob

@Bob Nelson 35Whelen - thanks for the clarification Bob and I am somewhat relieved…although the World needs a few more blunt-straight-talkers (there’s too many that pussy foot around), I look forward to your continued style which is very much like what You need from a .243 ——RIGHT BETWEEN THE EYES !!

 

[mark-hunter]

I was wondering when Bob will kick in.
I am now relieved!
Bob is alive, well, kicking and at his best!

 

[Safari Dave]

My first Mannlicher stocked rifle was a Ruger 77 RSI in you guessed it 243 caliber. It was our poison on woodchucks and coyotes. I took 2 bucks with it both heart shots and both fell within sight of my stand. My issue with the 243 was that despite being heart shot neither bullet (remington 100 grain core locs) exited and there was no blood trail to either deer. Clearly the 243 is capable of killing deer however the performance was not what I required. I much prefer holes both entering and exiting, aiding if tracking is required. I then traded the 243 in for an RSI in 250-3000 savage which I have been wholly satisfied with. Just one old hunters experience. I will never use a 243 on big game again.

As was mine.

It is the only .243 that I own, but I have been vastly underwhelmed with the .243 Winchester.

I've taken at least 3 whitetail bucks with it, but all of them traveled more than 100 yards after the first shot.

One of them ran a 200yd radius circle and came back to the spot where I shot it initially. I shot it again, and it dropped with the second shot. The bullet holes were one inch apart!

Rack me up in the "anti-.243" crowd.


On another hunt, my buddy and I were hunting pronghorn in Wyoming a few years back.

He shot one with a .243 Winchester Tikka.

It laid there for 15 minutes.

As we approached, it got up and, literally, started walking off into the sunset.

I handed my buddy my .270 Winchester.

He dropped it for good with that shot.