7mm rifles, whats your thoughts, favourites

[Mr. Zorg]

@Bob Nelson 35 Whelen,

I have in fact been well aware of how 7X57mm factory ammo is loaded well below its potential. That's precisely why my comparison in this thread used Norma factory ammunition manufactured in Sweden, and well respected by most who have actually purchased and used this ammo.The Norma 7X57mm Mauser factory ammo loaded with their 156 grain Oryx projectile has a published muzzle velocity of 2640 fps; the Norma 7mm-08 Remington factory ammo loaded with the same 156 grain Oryx projectile is 2725 fps. My understanding is the CIP pressure limit for 7X57mm is 57 Kpsi and the CIP pressure limit for the 7mm-08 Remington is 61 Kpsi. Apples to apples, no SAAMI involvement, no US ammunition manufacturer involved whatsoever, the exact same European ammunition manufacturer, Norma. Just this single brand of factory ammunition using this single component projectile proves all the stuff about 7mm-08 Remington being limited to 140 grain projectiles "dawdling" along relative to 7X57mm loaded to CIP specs to be 100% fallacious.

Two other 7mm non-magnum cartridges with larger available case volume relative to both 7X57mm Mauser and 7mm-08 Remington are .280 Remington and 7X64mm Brenneke. Norma factory 7X64mm Brenneke ammunition loaded with the 156 grain Oryx projectile has a published muzzle velocity of 2789 fps, a scant 64 fps more than the 7mm-08 Remington ammo. Norma .280 Remington factory ammunition loaded with the 156 grain Oryx projectile has a published muzzle velocity of 2789 fps, same as the 7X64mm Brenneke. Note this 64 fps difference is less than the 85 fps higher muzzle velocity of the 7mm-08 Remington ammunition vs the 7X57mm Mauser ammunition.

Furthermore, Norma factory ammunition loaded with their 160 grain Tipstrike projectile has a published muzzle velocity of 2690 fps, and factory 7mm-08 Remington ammunition available from Reed's Ammunition and Research is available loaded with the 160 grain Nosler Accubond projectile with a published muzzle velocity of 2690 fps. The reloading tables for 7mm-08 Remington ammo available through Hodgson show these velocity figures are capable, although at the max load neighborhood, with ball powders that have been available at a retail level for years.

Now, Winchester StaBALL 6.5 powder loading tables show max load potential for 7mm-08 Remington cartridges with 160 grain projectiles to be 2825 fps, and with 175 grain projectiles, specifically the 175 grain Nosler Partition, to be 2669 fps, all below 60kpsi. The 139 and 140 grain projectiles' max load data using Winchester StaBALL 6.5 are 3054 fps and 2976 fps respectively, nowhere near the relative potential gains with 160 grain and 175 grain projectiles using powders previously available at the retail level. For example I have some Underwood 7mm-08 Remington factory ammunition I purchased loaded with the 140 grain Nosler Accubond projectile with a published muzzle velocity of 2950 fps - still though in no way "dawdling" for a 7mm non-magnum cartridge. In comparison PPU 7X64mm Brenneke factory ammunition loaded with their 140 grain PSPBT projectile has a published muzzle velocity of 2837 fps. Nosler .280 Remington factory ammunition loaded with the 140 grain Nosler Accubond has a published muzzle velocity of 3000 fps.

An important piece of data for honest comparison still not yet posted is the typical muzzle velocity of the 7X57mm ammunition @rookhawk loads with the 175 grain Nosler Partition that he's used for 20 years, that has never been constrained by SAAMI specifications.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

@Bob Nelson 35 Whelen,

I have in fact been well aware of how 7X57mm factory ammo is loaded well below its potential. That's precisely why my comparison in this thread used Norma factory ammunition manufactured in Sweden, and well respected by most who have actually purchased and used this ammo.The Norma 7X57mm Mauser factory ammo loaded with their 156 grain Oryx projectile has a published muzzle velocity of 2640 fps; the Norma 7mm-08 Remington factory ammo loaded with the same 156 grain Oryx projectile is 2725 fps. My understanding is the CIP pressure limit for 7X57mm is 57 Kpsi and the CIP pressure limit for the 7mm-08 Remington is 61 Kpsi. Apples to apples, no SAAMI involvement, no US ammunition manufacturer involved whatsoever, the exact same European ammunition manufacturer, Norma. Just this single brand of factory ammunition using this single component projectile proves all the stuff about 7mm-08 Remington being limited to 140 grain projectiles "dawdling" along relative to 7X57mm loaded to CIP specs to be 100% fallacious.

Two other 7mm non-magnum cartridges with larger available case volume relative to both 7X57mm Mauser and 7mm-08 Remington are .280 Remington and 7X64mm Brenneke. Norma factory 7X64mm Brenneke ammunition loaded with the 156 grain Oryx projectile has a published muzzle velocity of 2789 fps, a scant 64 fps more than the 7mm-08 Remington ammo. Norma .280 Remington factory ammunition loaded with the 156 grain Oryx projectile has a published muzzle velocity of 2789 fps, same as the 7X64mm Brenneke. Note this 64 fps difference is less than the 85 fps higher muzzle velocity of the 7mm-08 Remington ammunition vs the 7X57mm Mauser ammunition.

Furthermore, Norma factory ammunition loaded with their 160 grain Tipstrike projectile has a published muzzle velocity of 2690 fps, and factory 7mm-08 Remington ammunition available from Reed's Ammunition and Research is available loaded with the 160 grain Nosler Accubond projectile with a published muzzle velocity of 2690 fps. The reloading tables for 7mm-08 Remington ammo available through Hodgson show these velocity figures are capable, although at the max load neighborhood, with ball powders that have been available at a retail level for years.

Now, Winchester StaBALL 6.5 powder loading tables show max load potential for 7mm-08 Remington cartridges with 160 grain projectiles to be 2825 fps, and with 175 grain projectiles, specifically the 175 grain Nosler Partition, to be 2669 fps, all below 60kpsi. The 139 and 140 grain projectiles' max load data using Winchester StaBALL 6.5 are 3054 fps and 2976 fps respectively, nowhere near the relative potential gains with 160 grain and 175 grain projectiles using powders previously available at the retail level. For example I have some Underwood 7mm-08 Remington factory ammunition I purchased loaded with the 140 grain Nosler Accubond projectile with a published muzzle velocity of 2950 fps - still though in no way "dawdling" for a 7mm non-magnum cartridge. In comparison PPU 7X64mm Brenneke factory ammunition loaded with their 140 grain PSPBT projectile has a published muzzle velocity of 2837 fps. Nosler .280 Remington factory ammunition loaded with the 140 grain Nosler Accubond has a published muzzle velocity of 3000 fps.

An important piece of data for honest comparison still not yet posted is the typical muzzle velocity of the 7X57mm ammunition @rookhawk loads with the 175 grain Nosler Partition that he's used for 20 years, that has never been constrained by SAAMI specifications.

Mr Zorg
In the real world loaded to the same pressure, not 4,000kpsi difference they will give the same velocity. The 7x57 actually holds more powder so in theory should be faster.
Using the 4 to 1 rule of ballistics that is for every 4% increase in powder charge you get a 1% increase in velocity. Therefore the 280 Remington and the 7x64 should be giving mere than a 68fps increase over the 7/08.
This is assuming the same pressure, bullet etc. Yes barrels are a law unto themselves some being so called fast or slow.
To simplify this so everyone understands what I said
Bigger case + more powder @ equal pressure = faster bullets.
Cheers mate Bob

 

[ILCAPO]

I recall the shoulder mod now that you mentioned it. Something about pushing a .284 bullet down a .277 hole was dangerous so they made it safer.

I don't buy that. If it was dangerous, it wouldn't be one of the most popular cartridges in the U.S. (and elsewhere). The 280 Remington, and it's Ackley Improved version, however, are slightly superior in that they provide the same flat shooting characteristics of the 270 Winchester, but with the option of going with heavier bullets, which at the higher end for the 7mm caliber, is just slightly superior to the parent cartridge -- the .30-06 Springfield. When you're up around the 160 - 175 grain range, which pretty much mirrors the .30-06 in the 160-180 grain range, the 7mm bullet is flatter shooting and correspondingly hits with slightly more force at longer ranges. These same characteristics apply to the 7mm-08 Remington versus its parent cartridge, the .308 Winchester.

Technically speaking, the .30 calibers hit with slightly more authority and/or at least make a slightly bigger hole, at closer ranges, say out to about 250 yards. But once you get out to longer ranges, the 7mms take the lead, remaining flatter, giving you more practical range without adjusting your aim, and due to the lesser drag, retain slightly more energy. So, say at 300 yards or more, you're actually getting just a bit more "umph" with the 7mms.

All said, you can't go wrong with either. And I'll end by saying, from my discussions both herein over the years with PHs and those I met last weekend at the Harrisburg, PA Outdoor Show, overall they tend to favor the .30 caliber choices; .308 Winchester, .30-06 Springfield, 300 Winchester magnum.

And the first two are particularly favored by most of those I've spoken with in the Limpopo region, which is mainly bushveld with shots typically being within 60-200 yards, and seldom exceeding 250 yards. You simply can't go wrong with either of the non-magnums. Once you get to the open range, especially the Kalahari, then your 7mm RM, 300 WM, and higher really come into play.

All said, I favor the classics, and in fact have a Ruger Model 77 in 7 x 57 Mauser. LOVE IT. Just as I do my 6.5 x 55 Swede. On the high end, just for the extra punch, I have a custom built .35 Whelen, which is the .30-06 case necked up to 35 caliber. Out to 200 yards or so, it's a formidable round. For the longer ranges stuff, I have a 7mm RM, but being a firearm aficionado (aka, "gun nut" as the left would say), one of my hobbies is building a collection, and toward that end I'm seeking to fill the gap between the 7mm Mauser and 7mm Remington Magnum with a 280, and at this moment am leaning toward the Ackley Improved configuration, and for the reason someone said herein. Loaded up, with the lighter bullets, you can match the commercial loads of the 7mm Remington Magnum, but have the option of going a bit lighter, and bringing it down to the high end of the 7mm Mauser. Very versatile round. I don't need it. I just WANT it. ; )

 

[Wyatt Smith]

They made the shoulder a little longer on the 280 so it couldn’t be chambered in a 270 rifle, making it safe.

 

[fourfive8]

They made the shoulder a little longer on the 280 so it couldn’t be chambered in a 270 rifle, making it safe.

Correct! That's exactly why it was designed that way- to prevent a potential accident, with the 270 and 280 being so similar....

 

[HWL]

Some German exotic 7mm's

7x75R Super Express vom Hofe and 7x66 Super Express vom Hofe with rebated rim.

HWL

 

[ILCAPO]

CBH
Chris if I was limited to 3 rifles they would all be non magnum
My 25/303Epps Newton improved
35 Whelen
And 280AI, there's something about it that just grabs me. Always liked the 7mm
Cheers mate Bob

Now here's a guy after my own heart. ; )

While I will not give up ANY of my current hunting rifle collection I have one, the .35 Whelen, am soon to acquire for a very good price a .25-06, which will be very near your .25 wildcat, and am about to start on my next project, which is having my Belgian FN Commercial Mauser action, which I obtained a decade ago and is still sitting in the safe, built into a .280 AI. I have been flipping back and forth between .280 Remington and the AI version, thinking I really don't need the AI being I have a 7mm Rem Mag. But I figured it's something I can load up or down to meet my needs.

Actually, it's not a "need" per se, being I have a 7 x 57 Mauser already, which I really love. It's just a hole I thought I'd plug. ; )

 

[ILCAPO]

Hopefully you have plans to use that savage 99. You will find the 250-3000 a very pleasant cartridge

I have already. Took my last whitetail with it. Lovely gun. Light, easy to wield, and just a pleasure to shoot.

 

[Mr. Zorg]

@Bob Nelson 35 Whelan,

I find it notable that nowhere did I post anything about same case size + more powder = anything FWIW. One part of that you left out IMO is the same powder.

A different powder (and not one yet available at the retail level) is what I've speculated as the difference between the Norma 7X64mm Brenneke factory ammo loaded with the 160 grain Tipstrike projectile with a published muzzle velocity of 2920 fps vs their .280 Remington factory ammo also loaded with the 160 grain Tipstrike projectile with a published muzzle velocity of 2789 fps, elsewhere on this board. And the Geco 7X64mm factory ammunition loaded with the 155 grain Express projectile with a published muzzle velocity of 2904 fps as a cross check, noting that both companies fall under the RUAG corporate umbrella elsewhere on this board.

Can you explain the CIP rationale for a different upper pressure limit for 7X57mm Mauser vs 7mm-08 Remington? We, including me, are all aware of the rationale behind the SAAMI difference. I have not seen any posts explaining the rationale behing the CIP reasoning for the lesser but still different, upper pressure limit figures. I assume the CIP figure has a rationale, and a different rationale than SAAMI.

 

[Ragman]

What really interests me is I pick up rifle ( what ever one) , point at game, go bang, game falls down = freezer full of meat.
I'm glad you enjoy all those calculations but unfortunately maths and formulas were never my forte.

You can do all the math and physics equations till your blue in the face....my feeble brain can't take it either! No matter what the calculator says to the last minutia of ballistics, all these 7mm's get pointed at game, go bang, game falls down=freezer full of meat. Mike drop for @B0b Nelson 35Whelen!

 

[Mr. Zorg]

What makes you think the game I shoot doesn't go bang-flop when I shoot, knowing I can do math and rational reasoning?

I personally find the cheerleading posts, along with their opposites, on this foum quite curious.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I don't buy that. If it was dangerous, it wouldn't be one of the most popular cartridges in the U.S. (and elsewhere). The 280 Remington, and it's Ackley Improved version, however, are slightly superior in that they provide the same flat shooting characteristics of the 270 Winchester, but with the option of going with heavier bullets, which at the higher end for the 7mm caliber, is just slightly superior to the parent cartridge -- the .30-06 Springfield. When you're up around the 160 - 175 grain range, which pretty much mirrors the .30-06 in the 160-180 grain range, the 7mm bullet is flatter shooting and correspondingly hits with slightly more force at longer ranges. These same characteristics apply to the 7mm-08 Remington versus its parent cartridge, the .308 Winchester.

Technically speaking, the .30 calibers hit with slightly more authority and/or at least make a slightly bigger hole, at closer ranges, say out to about 250 yards. But once you get out to longer ranges, the 7mms take the lead, remaining flatter, giving you more practical range without adjusting your aim, and due to the lesser drag, retain slightly more energy. So, say at 300 yards or more, you're actually getting just a bit more "umph" with the 7mms.

All said, you can't go wrong with either. And I'll end by saying, from my discussions both herein over the years with PHs and those I met last weekend at the Harrisburg, PA Outdoor Show, overall they tend to favor the .30 caliber choices; .308 Winchester, .30-06 Springfield, 300 Winchester magnum.

And the first two are particularly favored by most of those I've spoken with in the Limpopo region, which is mainly bushveld with shots typically being within 60-200 yards, and seldom exceeding 250 yards. You simply can't go wrong with either of the non-magnums. Once you get to the open range, especially the Kalahari, then your 7mm RM, 300 WM, and higher really come into play.

All said, I favor the classics, and in fact have a Ruger Model 77 in 7 x 57 Mauser. LOVE IT. Just as I do my 6.5 x 55 Swede. On the high end, just for the extra punch, I have a custom built .35 Whelen, which is the .30-06 case necked up to 35 caliber. Out to 200 yards or so, it's a formidable round. For the longer ranges stuff, I have a 7mm RM, but being a firearm aficionado (aka, "gun nut" as the left would say), one of my hobbies is building a collection, and toward that end I'm seeking to fill the gap between the 7mm Mauser and 7mm Remington Magnum with a 280, and at this moment am leaning toward the Ackley Improved configuration, and for the reason someone said herein. Loaded up, with the lighter bullets, you can match the commercial loads of the 7mm Remington Magnum, but have the option of going a bit lighter, and bringing it down to the high end of the 7mm Mauser. Very versatile round. I don't need it. I just WANT it. ; )

I'll CAPO
I hunted the Kalahari region and we were able to stalk within 200 yards max of all game including black wildebeest at 180yards.
The Whelen loaded with 225grain accubonds @ 2,850 fps are flat shooting enough for 400 yards. It has the same drop as the 308 with 155gn Says that is around 23-24 inches so very do able.
Cheers mate Bob

 

[nztimb]

What makes you think the game I shoot doesn't go bang-flop when I shoot, knowing I can do math and rational reasoning?

I personally find the cheerleading posts, along with their opposites, on this foum quite curious.

All the while cheerleading for the 7mm-08 though.

 

[Mr. Zorg]

Absolutely not, simply putting to bed the non-factual statements.

So spoken like a cheerleader. No interest in the dispassionate data. That's exactly what I find so curious amongst this subset of this board's general demographics.

Even if you didn't choose to read that I posted I see the 7mm-08 Remington and 7X57mm as basically equivalent cartridges when I first posted it, that's in one of my posts recently incorporated by Bob Nelson 35 Whelen just recently through the "Quote" feature.

So obviously there was no interest in that data by Von Gruff.

Curious indeed.

 

[bruce moulds]

people might take a person more seriously if they did not treat them as if they were part of a sub species because they disagree.
especially when the disagreement comes from actual experience in the field.
getting enough experience to make meaningful decisions killing game takes a lot of shooting.
you can't do this on a screen.
bruce.

 

[nztimb]

people might take a person more seriously if they did not treat them as if they were part of a sub species because they disagree.
especially when the disagreement comes from actual experience in the field.
getting enough experience to make meaningful decisions killing game takes a lot of shooting.
you can't do this on a screen.
bruce.

 

[CBH Australia]

The only 7mm i own is my 7mm-08 and i like it.
I used a 7mm Rm in South Africa and i liked it but ive owned and hope to own another.300wm as i always had fascination with that too.
I have done some good shooting with the 7mm-08

 

[Mr. Zorg]

people might take a person more seriously if they did not treat them as if they were part of a sub species because they disagree.
especially when the disagreement comes from actual experience in the field.
getting enough experience to make meaningful decisions killing game takes a lot of shooting.
you can't do this on a screen.
bruce.

Some specific examples to determine your position would be illuminating.

Exactly what have I posted that motivates you, or others you are speaking for, choose to conclude I am less than able to kill animals I shoot, and have demonstratedto you I lack capability to make meaningful decisions regarding any animals I have shot? Please use the "quote" feature from any post I've made on this board for your references.


If you don't choose to quote specifics from my postings here, clarify if you telling me your position is based on some mutual exclusivity existing between someone able to use mathematics and present logical, step-by-step rationale and marksmanship, especially with respect to killing game animals especially if they use a "screen" such as this forum vs hardcopy?

 

[Nevada Mike]

I have a 7mm Rem Mag and a 7 X 57 Model 70. Both fine cartridges.

 

[ILCAPO]

You can do all the math and physics equations till your blue in the face....my feeble brain can't take it either! No matter what the calculator says to the last minutia of ballistics, all these 7mm's get pointed at game, go bang, game falls down=freezer full of meat. Mike drop for @B0b Nelson 35Whelen!

LOL!. And that's what matters most.