600 Overkill? Anyone..

[BeeMaa]

+1 @Red Leg

I admit that I wanted to get a .400 caliber rifle but I couldn't justify it.
That is until Mrs BeeMaa put DG on the menu!
Once that happened the 375 became hers and I got a 416.
That's about all I can handle at this point without a muzzle break (which is a deal breaker for me).

I'll also admit that I'd like to try something larger some day, like a 470NE or 500GIBBS.
It's more out of curiuosioty of testing my limits and the fun of touching one off.
But if I don't, I doubt I'll loose sleep over it.

 

[Bert the Turtle]

I think this is a lot like driving: everyone driving slower than me is a jackass holding up the progress of the world and everyone driving faster is a dangerous maniac.

That said, I think the name itself tells you that the 600 Overkill is at least in part intended as a novelty.

There isn't exactly a line between enough and too much- it is more of a zone. What is too much for me might not be too much for the next guy.

I do think we the idea that some guns are more than necessary is not what we should be considering. We should rather be talking about when a gun becomes so big as to be disadvantageous.

 

[Deleted member 53080]

We all have our biases for something and our prejudices against something. I understand delivery usually determines the response (concerning the following).. A new member posted photos of his 600 ok and there were some negative comments made concerning practicality, recoil, muzzle brake, and so on and so forth. Another new member, days after, posted pics of his rifles, some with muzzle brakes and one that would only be practical for Hercules in lieu of a gun bearer (I do understand the historical appeal of a 4 bore although I’m not sure I could bring myself to fire one) and not a word of criticism or protest has emerged (about the brakes at least). A little objectivity and fairness would be nice.

 

[Red Leg]

We all have our biases for something and our prejudices against something. I understand delivery usually determines the response (concerning the following).. A new member posted photos of his 600 ok and there were some negative comments made concerning practicality, recoil, muzzle brake, and so on and so forth. Another new member, days after, posted pics of his rifles, some with muzzle brakes and one that would only be practical for Hercules in lieu of a gun bearer (I do understand the historical appeal of a 4 bore although I’m not sure I could bring myself to fire one) and not a word of criticism or protest has emerged (about the brakes at least). A little objectivity and fairness would be nice.

That is a fair point. I think a muzzle brake on a 300 Win Mag is a very bad idea. I wouldn't want to be the PH, the tracker, or anyone on the same range when any of the bolt actions above are fired. My comment about "fascination with truly big bores" was directed at the doubles. Nothing in that comment has anything to do with practicality. I doubt if very many here have the remotest use for a rifle that has to be carried by some poor devil using specialized harness. I can only hope he was generously tipped.

That said, with respect to using such a double on game, assuming one can manage it, I find it far less problematic from an ethical perspective, than using game animals to play out some Carlos Hathcock fantasy. A buffalo hit with a four bore at 60 yards probably isn't going anywhere. An elk hit at 600 on the next ridge may or may not be found.

 

[Waterbuck2008]

Well stated, @Red Leg

 

[Bert the Turtle]

Regards muzzle brakes, what is the utility on a hunting rifle? What is the benefit that is worth the well-accepted downsides? How many shots are people taking in the field and how bad is the recoil that a brake has net benefit?

There is probably utility for long practice sessions. Perhaps it could be removed for field use and the rifle re-zeroed for use without it?

Maybe I'm just getting old and cranky or maybe I just don't do the kind of hunting where it matters. Designing a big cartridge that spits fire, eats barrels, and requires recoil-management devices just to be able to shoot it seems like a lot of drama to get a modestly flatter trajectory than my 30-06. Especially considering that at the ranges where it matters the most, I would assume laser range finders and anemometers are involved anyway.

Now, if we are talking about fun toys, that is a totally different matter.

 

[Deleted member 53080]

That is a fair point. I think a muzzle brake on a 300 Win Mag is a very bad idea. I wouldn't want to be the PH, the tracker, or anyone on the same range when any of the bolt actions above are fired. My comment about "fascination with truly big bores" was directed at the doubles. Nothing in that comment has anything to do with practicality. I doubt if very many here have the remotest use for a rifle that has to be carried by some poor devil using specialized harness. I can only hope he was generously tipped.

That said, with respect to using such a double on game, assuming one can manage it, I find it far less problematic from an ethical perspective, than using game animals to play out some Carlos Hathcock fantasy. A buffalo hit with a four bore at 60 yards probably isn't going anywhere. An elk hit at 600 on the next ridge may or may not be found.

Just for the record my post wasn’t directed totally at you, more of a general address at the whole situation. Also for the record I find you and I agree on the vast majority of subjects. For instance, that 375 build belongs on a firing range somewhere and nowhere else. Well maybe a war zone. I agree wholeheartedly with you on the topic of long range “hunting”.

On the subject of big bore rifles I see I need to rethink and/or clarify my previous statement. I have absolutely no problem with anyone using the largest rifle they can A. Shoot “well”. And B. Carry their self for the duration of their hunt (given there are no handicaps). This ain’t 1890 and none of us are British noblemen (that I know of).

 

[Tanks]

...

On the subject of big bore rifles I see I need to rethink and/or clarify my previous statement. I have absolutely no problem with anyone using the largest rifle they can A. Shoot “well”. And B. Carry their self for the duration of their hunt (given there are no handicaps). This ain’t 1890 and none of us are British noblemen (that I know of).

Assuming (A) I have no problems with a hunter paying someone an extra $10-$20 a day or so "tip" to carry one's firearm. If offered I'd bet many at the camp would jump at the chance.

BTW, aren't we, for the most part, trying to recreate the 1890s in our hunts with the use of double rifles, tented camps etc., etc.?

Part of the allure of Tanzania is that I think.

 

[Bert the Turtle]

I tend to agree that if you can provide employment for a gun-bearer or a team of gun-bearers, there are plenty of people with kids to feed and few jobs skills who could use the work.

 

[Deleted member 53080]

I love the traditions and romanticism of safari. If I’m ever fortunate enough to go to Tanzania for a mixed bag hunt I would like to have a 2-3 rifle battery (which would require gun bearer(s)) and stay in a tented camp. However if I only have one firearm I’m going to be the one carrying it. Just my personal opinion and preference.

 

[RayAtkinson]

Return to battery is the most overlooked part of a DG rifle, being rocked back on your heels is not condusive to stopping a charge and a stopper is something that keeps water in a bathtup, ending a charge is a bullet in the brain or spine and the size of the hole in the noodle or spine is not and serious indicator...I remember the first elephant shot with the 700 N.E., a brain shot and the elephant was never recovered.

 

[Certus]

And since then several others have been successfully taken with the 700. Plenty lost with smaller calibers too. Your point is what?


My only contention with the 600 Overkill is its name. Just doesn’t sound good. A .600 Belted Magnum is what I’d have called it, but that’s just personal preference.

 

[Ruark]

For what it's worth, Mark Sullivan runs a Heym 600NE.

 

[Saul]

For what it's worth, Mark Sullivan runs a Heym 600NE.

Oh so is the 577 too small for him now?

 

[colorado]

Now could we see that without the muzzle brake?

Exactly!

 

[ChrisG]

For what it's worth, Mark Sullivan runs a Heym 600NE.

I literally laughed out loud. It was a matter of time before Mark got mentioned. I own a few of his books and they read more like a child braggart who assumes everyone else is too dumb to see through the ridiculous pretentiousness, than a piece of literature. I know a few of the members on here have met him and that attitude isn't just limited to his books.

I think I'm going to start a thread about the virtues of a bofors cannon as a charge stopper.

For what it's worth, the physics of using a huge gun as "bowling animals over", hammer of thor, lightning bolt charge stopper... well, they just don't add up... what is 13,000, 15,000 or 25,000 ft-lbs going to do to a 10,000 pound pachyderm that a .375 or .416 that punches through and through the brain and skull not going to do?

To put that level of energy into perspective, 25,000 ft-lbs is approximately the same amount of energy as 4 AA Batteries contain.

More still, without the application of the stored chemical energy of a charge of Comp-B, I highly doubt you will overwhelm any animal that weighs more that a ton with anything that can be shoulder fired unless it hits the nervous system or shatters crucial weight bearing bones. In which case a .416 would do the same thing and you can fire it more than once in a 3 second period.

Now for the pure fun of throwing large chunks of lead down the range, and having fun with it, I concur. But arguing any sort or practical advantage over more commonly used and proven effective calibers, is based on a flawed sense that a much bigger gun MUST be head and shoulders above the rest. I can have no issue with wanting a large bore. I built a 12 gauge rifle that shoots massive chunks of lead. I like a good lead slinger as much as anyone, it's the flawed justification that it's like hitting animal with a bazooka... sorry, the numbers don't add up.

 

[Tanks]

...I remember the first elephant shot with the 700 N.E., a brain shot and the elephant was never recovered.

I'd submit that the only thing the elephant would do if brain shot is either sit on its hind legs or roll over. I have not seen any other reaction. I'd bet that shot with the .700 just plain missed the brain.

 

[RayAtkinson]

Exactly who has been successful with the 700? I know the first elephant shot with it in the head got away and was never recovered, was the talk of the SCI show that year..

I feel return to batter is overlooked by many experts and newbies, The largest big bores rear up sometimes and come off the shoulder, sometimes you lose the grip with one hand or both, this I have seen many times and it happened to me..That imo is the last thing I intend to deal with..I refer to such calibers as the Penis Principle," mine is bigger than yours" syndrome and most are closet queens being shown at cocktail parties...

In my opinion a 470 is the largest of DG calibers suitable for even the hardiest of men, with a few exceptions for the 500 N.E., and packing a 15 pound gun all day in 110 degrees is just stupid its slow to mount and hold when exhausted, slow to emergencies....

One has every right to shoot what he pleases however, and I believe that.

 

[Certus]

Verney Carron just recently.

Hunting Elephant With Verney-Carron 700 Nitro Express Double Rifle

Hunting Elephant With Verney-Carron 700 Nitro Express Double Rifle

www.africahunting.com

 

[daawg1963]

Shoot whatever you want who gives a shit BOOOMMMM!!!!! I would have 1 of every caliber if money was no object .