458 win mag minimum bullet weight for Cape buffalo

[michael458]

We learn something new every single day. Thank you so much, @michael458

You're a true treasure trove of knowledge and a highly valuable team player on these forums.

Wow, @Hunter-Habib incredible words, appreciated beyond what you can imagine. Thank you.

Now, lets broach a subject that you mentioned about Sectional Density earlier, so we all have a better understanding of just how things work..............

Concerning Solids;

Right now there are 8 Factors of Solid Terminal Penetration and in order of importance;
1. Meplat Size % Of Caliber
2. Nose Profile
3. Construction & Material
4. Nose Projection
5. Radius Edge of Meplat

Those are Factors of Design

6. Velocity
7. Twist Rate
8. Sectional Density

What we have found is that all the other factors have more of an effect on How well a Solid does during terminal penetration than that of Sectional Density. Sectional Density will only be a Factor of Solid Terminal Performance if ALL OTHER FACTORS ARE EQUAL............

Example;

550 gr Woodleigh Round Nose FMJ Sectional Density .375

325 gr CEB #13 SS Solid Sectional Density .221

There is NO DOUBT which bullet of the two above that I am taking to the field .................. Where is Sectional Density of any importance when you consider Solid Terminal Performance?

Now, lets look at Expanding Premium Bullets and Compare Raptor Sectional Density, shall we?

First, Sectional Density Changes dramatically with a Trauma Inflicting or Expanding Bullet, once it starts terminal penetration. Its beginning SD means nothing, because that changes the millisecond that Terminal Penetration Begins......... As the Bullet Expands in the case of a Premium, Swift A, Woodleigh, North Fork, TSX........ the Sectional Density # continues to get lower than what it began as.

I just came out of my load room, we call it the Lab, and I measured and weighed actual bullets recovered from animal tissue. Weight and Diameter determines Sectional Density Right....... But you have to measure the Diameter of the Expanded Bullet to get a Terminal Sectional Density.....

1. 500 Swift A Frame 458 Lott 2270 fps Buffalo weight 493 grs Expanded Diameter .824 inches
Terminal Sectional Density .104

2. 450 gr Swift A Frame 458 B&M Buffalo various, 3 recovered Bullets I believe just at or around 2200 fps Weight 444 gr diameter .785 average.......
Terminal Sectional Density .103
Old Photo, terrible .......

3. 400 Swift A Frame 458 Winchester 2325 fps .800 expansion Diameter and retained weight of 385 grs...... Terminal Sectional Density .086

4. 500 Woodleigh Soft 2125 fps Buffalo retained weight 494 gr .902 expanded diameter...... Terminal Sectional Density .087

5. 420 CEB Raptor 458 B&M 2250 fps buffalo Retained weight 335 gr maximum terminal diameter (jagged points on front) .465 diameter
Terminal Sectional Density .221

I cannot get the Bold and Italics to turn off, it was not my intention to put #5 in bold.

As you see, the Raptors Terminal Sectional Density is over twice as large as any of the expanding premium softs. Could this explain its superior penetrative abilities?

 

[ldmay375]

That .458, 325 grain CEB Safari Solid #13 is absolutely amazing.

 

[Foxi]

I have read a lot about new bullet technology. I’m a reloader so I bought some 295 grain cutting edge safari bullets in 458 cal. They are regulated to my double barrel. Shooting 4 shot 1 hole groups at 50 yards and less than 1.5 inches at 100 yards. Velocity is 2616 fps. Would these be suitable for Cape buffalo? Thanks.

Of course that's enough for everything that runs around in Africa.
But you're not doing justice to this beautiful but already very old cartridge.
What excites people is its punch with a heavy bullet.
Don't listen to the others(.458 hater), ask the game controllers in Hangwe, they really know something.
I load it with 480 gn bullets(instead the usual 500 gn), which is ballistically more elegant, as the pressure load is lower and there is a bit more steam behind it.
Shoot it with 4 cm high at 100m(so a scope or red dot on), then you have zero at 150 meters, which is also enough for plainsgame.

 

[Lance Hopper]

Michael has more than sufficiently answered this question, but I’ll throw in my two cents. I loaded 325 grain Safari solids for a buddy of mine 450 nitro express. 2150 ft./s. He just killed a 60 pound elephant with two heart longshots. The bull did not go 50 yards. Only one of the bullets was recovered as the other one exited. To say the least, these bullets are pure devastation.

 

[Hyde Hunter]

@Hunter-Habib I completely understand your thoughts here, I would have been exactly the same 15 years ago, and actually had lots of reservations myself until putting similar bullets to buffalo. Let me explain;

First, for this exercise I am keeping this directed to TWO Objectives. 458 and Buffalo only.......

If thinking in Conventional expanding Trauma inflicting bullets only, then @Hunter-Habib and I are on exactly the same page. In 458 Winchester I like the 450 Swift or North Fork, either one. Both will hit broadside and do damage, and both will be found on the far side under the hide. They can both get up enough velocity in 458 Winchester to do the job, and then backup with a good solid, today either CEB #13s or North Forks.... No question about it. I would probably do the same in larger capacity like the Lott as well..... I shot several buffalo with the Lott and 500 Swifts, also recovered some of those on the far side too......... backed in those days by 500 Barnes Solids, and 2005 by the FN Versions. I have shot buffalo with 500 Woodlieghs as well, same story, recovered a few of those as well. Those were conventional days, and this is where we started gathering information from test work to gain comparisons and get correlation data between the two.

In 2009 I started doing a lot of shooting with the First Generation Copper CNC HP bullets. Conventional beliefs and teachings always taught us that once a bullet starts shedding weight that this was bad, you would loose penetration, loose effectiveness and it was just bad and a failure if your bullet started breaking apart loosing weight! RIght? Yes........... I was more or less forced into this by trying to come up with suitable DG Bullets for my .500s...... I tested, petals/blades break off, but I was having a hard time reading the tea leaves. What I was finding in the test work, before going to the field with these, that I was getting deeper penetration than Conventional wisdom told me I could get? In fact, deeper than conventionals in .458? On top of that, I was getting more trauma in medium as well? Deeper Penetration? How, all the petals and blades sheared? First time to the field I knew I did not have enough bullet for buffalo, I would have to be careful and take my shots accordingly........ that was until the first buffalo shot, and these bullets were burning through buffalo like they were hot butter, and destroying everything in their path to pieces. Buffalo stand and quiver many times...... I had more than enough bullet, exits were common.......... The light bulb finally came on..........First Generation Copper CNC would now be CEB Maximus and Hammer Bullets as examples.

Next were the Raptors, What I call 2cd Generation CNC...... I like brass and most of them are brass, but some copper Raptors exist but have to be manipulated to behave like a Brass Raptor. Brass Raptors Shear BLADES at 1.5 to 2 inches inside any aqueoua tissue or test medium, these are not petals, they slice and dice everything in their path, and radiate aways from center, center bullet becomes a full caliber broken beer bottle solid and continues to penetrate dead straight. Massive trauma is inflicted, blades slice vessels, tissues, organs everything to pieces. In a buffalo .458 caliber Raptors these blades can be found in the goo that comes out of the chest cavity at the skinning shed, but you have to do some sifting through all the blood, gore and goo left behind. If that shot was broadside, it is unlikely you will find a center bullet, but you will find a nice full caliber hole going out the far side. CEB makes a 450 Solid, that is just superb in all 458 caliber cartridges, its matching Raptor is 420 gr. It is the premier Buffalo bullet for 458 caliber, and many a buffalo has been put in the dirt with them. The 420 Raptor IS the 450 Solid just with a big hollow cavity. Same length, same bearing surface. Before this time, I had a theory, make the solid, then give it a hollow point .4 inches deep and we had to adjust each caliber cavity width to get proper shear, the thought was to have the same bullet, and with the same load you would have the same POI at 50 yards. Most try to manipulate the weight to get this, but this would have caused issues with CNC brass and copper. By making bearing surface and length the same as the solid, you have the same POI with the same load...... It worked.

From my Conventional Wisdom Days, I determined a proper buffalo bullet had to penetrate in my test medium here, from 18 inches +........ The best penetration I ever acheived was 500 gr Swift A Frames at 24 inches....... so a minimum was set in my mind, 18-24 inches in my medium, we had a buffalo bullet, and I pretty much keep that to this day. After many a bovine shot, both cape and asiatic we learned a few things along the way. I never changed this minimum because of these new Non Conventional Bullets, but we probably could to an extent, but we are very safe staying with these numbers even with Non Cons......

This is why I said above that if careful, the 295 Raptor will be fine on buffalo with a perfect broadside, but I have some reservations about severe angled shots. And also, perhaps I am being a little conservative on this, because it is YOU, and not me. Me, I would do crazy things, but you I want to not have any problems. I have almost no doubt, broadside 295 Raptor can exit, and will most of the time.

In 2013 I was testing the new 250 Socom Raptors in the field, I had shot several Zebra, wildebeast and so forth in my 18 inch 458 B&M. I was running the 250 Raptors at 2900 fps, and just lucky in this gun POI was close enough at 50 yards matching the 420 Raptors and the 450 Solids, so I could pick and choose the bullet, not change the sight systems............. This 250 Socom Raptor was doing one hell of a number on large plains game....... it was ripping them to pieces, and zebra would drop to the shot consistently, I never had one run after taking the hit. Same with everything else as well......... I even had to use one for the biggest hippo I had ever taken, but it was a brain shot at 15 steps, and 100+ yards from the shore line. The brain shot was incredible, squirting brain out both ear holes 6 feet in both directions........

So, I wanted to see what would happen with this 250 Socom .458 caliber bullet on buffalo! We found a good shot at a Cow buffalo, I was careful, I made a deliberate shot behind the shoulder. This proved effective. After we did find the base of the 250 Socom on the far side in the hide, it did not exit. But it did make it all the way through. OK the remaining bullet from a .458 caliber 250 gr bullet had just penetrated as deep as I have seen 500 gr Swift A Frames in .458 caliber..... Let that sink in for a second! I only recovered two 250 gr Socom Raptors, one behind the skull of the hippo, and this bullet on far side of cow buffalo..........

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Now, I would not recommend the 250 Socom for buffalo. But if careful, it could be done in a pinch.

I believe, but I am not 100% certain that the 295 Raptor test I showed above was done with the bullets not having the Talon Tips installed. I am looking at tests done with the 300 ESP Raptor, Enhanced System Projectile..... meaning Raptor on one end, and #13 Solid on the other end, it can be loaded either way.........

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Take particular note that the increased velocity at 48 yards with Talon Tip installed, the increase in penetration. This is definitely no doubt about it absolutely Buffalo Capable ................. and you can also use the solid to reasonable effect for buffalo. The Nose projection on the solid end is short and this is its main limitation.

Now, here is the reason that the 420 Raptor is very much a serious buffalo bullet........... The only one I ever recovered was a frontal chest shot, and the bullet was finally found just behind the stomach of that buffalo....... easy 4 ft of penetration, and had to completely traverse all the stomach contents............

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There is no conventional expanding bullet that would have penetrated that stomach completely.

Remember, 500 Swift A Frame, 458 Lott, 2270 fps penetrated to 24 inches in my test medium...........

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I was asked to do some research on the 400 gr Hammer in .458 Caliber in 458 Winchester. I actually did a lot of pressure data with various powders and loads, but ended up doing the Terminal tests with B&Ms........... After doing the Terminals with the 400 Hammer I declared it "Buffalo Capable".......... later at least a couple of guys used the 400 Hammer on buffalo with extreme success, I was told the bullets "Hammered Buffalo to the Dirt"................ This is an example of Generation 1 Tech...... 400 gr Bullet on buffalo......

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Now, there are two other types of Non Conventional bullets that I know would be effective, the Expanding CPS North Forks and the Lehigh Extremes. I have used the Expanding North Forks on buffalo in .500 caliber and in .474 caliber, I believe the two CPS in .458 would easy be buffalo capable..............

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If I were not retired I would also put the Lehigh Extremes up against buffalo..........

Lehigh makes a 225 gr, 250 gr and 325 gr Extreme............ and from what I can see here, they do what they say they can do............

Last fall I had a friend that used a 250 gr Lehigh Extreme in his 458 B&M at 2900 fps for Bison. It was one shot, less than 50 yards, and DRT on the spot....... His statement "This is a Deadly Bullet"..... no bullet recovered............

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not to hijack this I shot a Buffalo with the 494 gr Hammer Bullet last year and was very happy with the result but did not get to see the damage that it did but with you reporting bullets going sideways in your testing decided to give the CEB 420 Raptor a try thanks for the info

 

[michael458]

Michael has more than sufficiently answered this question, but I’ll throw in my two cents. I loaded 325 grain Safari solids for a buddy of mine 450 nitro express. 2150 ft./s. He just killed a 60 pound elephant with two heart longshots. The bull did not go 50 yards. Only one of the bullets was recovered as the other one exited. To say the least, these bullets are pure devastation.

Thanks for adding Lance...... I wanted this particular bullet specifically for my 458 Super Shorts, where I can run it at just over 2300 fps. There is a .474 caliber 350 gr and a .500 caliber 375 gr. One of my Sons has a 475 Super Short he used in Zimbabwe for buffalo, hippo and elephant and each one of those got the 350 Solid SS with incredible success, made a believer out of me too.......He shot side brain on a medium size bull elephant at 10 steps with the 350 .474, burned through like the head was butter and exited as well....... I was backup, damn I did not even get to shoot.......

Very Well done.... excellent.........

not to hijack this I shot a Buffalo with the 494 gr Hammer Bullet last year and was very happy with the result but did not get to see the damage that it did but with you reporting bullets going sideways in your testing decided to give the CEB 420 Raptor a try thanks for the info

I think you mean 404 Hammer? Yeah, I do that sometimes too...... As for the sideways part, take that with a grain of salt, this is not unusual for some bullets right at the end of penetration where they loose momentum. They did NOT tumble or anything close, they drove dead straight right to the very end and then just more of less went sideways. Not something to be concerned about. You are in good hands with either the Hammer or the 420 Raptor for buffalo missions......

 

[ldmay375]

Michael has more than sufficiently answered this question, but I’ll throw in my two cents. I loaded 325 grain Safari solids for a buddy of mine 450 nitro express. 2150 ft./s. He just killed a 60 pound elephant with two heart longshots. The bull did not go 50 yards. Only one of the bullets was recovered as the other one exited. To say the least, these bullets are pure devastation.

Simply put, That is one bad ass bullet.
Thanks for sharing this.

 

[Sideshow]

Cool job. Who else ŵants to be @michael458 when they grow up…Seriously though Thanks very much for the bullet performance reports! Makes choosing the right one for the job so much easier

 

[RayAtkinson]

If I'm going to test some outfits bullets I will do it on eland or large PG..I'm old school and shot many buffalo and I want a premium 500 gr soft followed by a 500 gr solid of my choosing or a heavy North Fork cup point

 

[ldmay375]

Ray, be assured @michael458 field tested his "lab work" on Lots of Cape and Australian Buffalo, as well as a few elephant and hippos.

 

[Rosch]

I plan on using 450 grain Swift AFrames out of my 458 Win Mag on buffalo here in about 6 weeks. I’ve paired them with 500 grain Nosler solids. The AFrames are sighted in a touch high and the solids are a touch low, I assume due to the difference in weight, but both are within 2 inches of each other and I have been practicing with them and feel real good about my chances if I het a crack at one, if I do my part the bullets will do theirs.

Well chosen!! 450 Grain bullets are in my opinion the minimum for 458 Win! If not, then I go for a 416 or even 375!
Sometimes I‘m wondering, if I‘m here in a „hunting forum“ or more in an experimental laboratory for ballistics, where people try to use rifles and reloading Equipment, which aren‘t simply made for the bespoken case!
Behind all this whole discussion I see the idea to reinvent the wheel again! Hey, Lots of heavy brainers and full time big game hunters have been through this materia 50 years ago!
With the all over known and proven best results!
Dear gentlemen, my advise is, take a 458 Win, if You can hold and handle it, load it with Premium 450 Grainer, invest on planning and get physically fit, scratch some real money together, book the best safari Your wallet can buy, hunt the biggest of the biggest, if You can afford it, the pricelist up and down, stay honest and hunt fair, that the hunting gods are blessing You!
That is my recipe for unforgettable hunting and comming home safely!

 

[grand veneur]

Continuing to experiment promotes progress. If you always take on everything uncritically, you will stagnate.

The cartridge 458 Win Mag was used 50 years ago primarily with the 500gr bullets, which partly is a cause for its bad reputation for hunting big game by some hunters. I have never hunted with this cartridge, but a 450gr bullet seems to me to be not the minimum but the optimum for this cartridge.

 

[Rosch]

I have never hunted with this cartridge,

Tough luck!! You really missed something!
The 458 Win was created in these days to duplicate the old 450 Express cartridges, which she did perfectly! The problem came up with poor NC ball powder performance and compressed loads, so no blame on the cartridge!! Use a 450 grainer and You are completely out of trouble!
Those big game guys, who do this all day long do carry very often 458 with great satisfaction.

Besides, the Winni fits a standard Mauser action, uses easy to get brass and there are a hell of a lot good bullets to look at!
Shooting a 290 Grain Bullet can be done, but is in my opinion no good idea when hunting buffalo! Youtube shows You all what You need to know! Even with 500 Grainer and perfect shot placement!
For those who don't know: Buff allways means serious trouble because Murphy and buff like each other!!

Small note: You guys waste so much time playing around with Your gunnys and bullets and what the hell, there might be no time and money left, hunting Africa and its breathtaking animals with equipment, which is proven as good for exactly this mission!

So load that 290 Grainer, go to Africa, wound Your buff, follow blood tracks the next 7 (hunting) days, and pay in full what You don't get hold of! Meanwhile You risk not only Your health, don't forget the trackers and the PH, who all have to sort out the mess when Your 290 grains did fail !
Don't forget the unnecessary suffer for the animal!

 

[grand veneur]

Tough luck!! You really missed something!
...

Maybe, but I was a Weatherby fan very early on and so accordingly my choice of a rifle caliber 458. Many hunters also missed a lot as far as this cartridge is concerned.

 

[Rosch]

Maybe, but I was a Weatherby fan very early on and so accordingly my choice of a rifle caliber 458. Many hunters also missed a lot as far as this cartridge is concerned.

To be a weatherby man means You can take a punch! Those stocks of WB rifles transfer recoil the most unpleasant way possible!
I shot once a 340 WB in original and in custom version and it was like night and day!
Since that experience I use for me only custom guns because of perfect fit and reduced recoil! Why taking shit if not necessary?
If I understand right, You want 458 in a Weatherby rifle? Oh god no!
My advice would be 458 Win in a 1908 K98 Brasil action, 56cm heavy barrel, Express sights, detachable Red dot, something dry like Timney trigger and a straight gun stock!
Eventually Hogue full bed filled with bird shot and silicon for weight on the back!
With todays available components around here that would be my armory for a „all around“ trip to the black continent!

 

[NDWoods]

My compliments to the participants in the thread. I read differing opinions being read by others with an open mind instead of insults and attacks.