.458 Super X factory ammo question

[CJW]

In reality, "plains game" can be found in areas where 200+ shots are often required and in bushveld areas where shots can be kept to less than 200 yards.

And if they aren't close enough for you, just get closer. That's what it's about anyways. The chase.

But since the 458wm seems to be his baby, I bet he shoots it pretty well.

 

[Badboymelvin]

Makes no sense to haul 2 rifles down here for 4 PG animals on a first hunt, especially if one is a 458 Wm which is a very bad choice as a PG rifle to start with.

Of course each can do as they wish.

Hi IvW,

Yes, I've been told that taking 2 rifles is a bit of a headache in regard to the mucking around thats required.
I'll only be taking the .458 and I'll borrow/ loan another rifle if needed.

Cheers,

Russ

 

[bruce moulds]

russ,
if your 458 won't kill the game mentioned, it will most likely not be insufficient bullet, but rather too much.
should the bullets fail to expand, they will still make a big hole, and they are round nose.
as an aside, we must note that gum trees are quite hard.
bruce.

 

[Badboymelvin]

Thanks for all the replies and encouragement guys, I really appreciate it.

Don't get me wrong, I know that the .458 isn't the ideal cartridge for PG but as I said, it's something I want to do and I wouldn't mind using the 510gn stuff for nostalgia.
I've still got a bit more testing to do on them and if they are deemed unsuitable I'll use a reload.

Now, a load that I do have that's been recommended to me is the following;
Winchester case
350gn TSX
69gn AR2207
CCI magnum primer
MV-2500fps
This load shoots about as flat as the old .303 and is not bad to about 250m. Still not super flat but not too bad. Also, this load in my rifle has about 50ft/lbs of recoil as opposed to the 70ft/lbs of the factory/ Woodleigh reloads.
Also, I've never used Barnes projectiles before (being Australian I use Woodleigh exclusively) so that is another thing that might be fun.

So, that is food for thought - but I really want to use the 480-510gn load that really makes the .458 what it is...

Cheers,

Russ

 

[Major Khan]

Thanks for all the replies and encouragement guys, I really appreciate it.

Don't get me wrong, I know that the .458 isn't the ideal cartridge for PG but as I said, it's something I want to do and I wouldn't mind using the 510gn stuff for nostalgia.
I've still got a bit more testing to do on them and if they are deemed unsuitable I'll use a reload.

Now, a load that I do have that's been recommended to me is the following;
Winchester case
350gn TSX
69gn AR2207
CCI magnum primer
MV-2500fps
This load shoots about as flat as the old .303 and is not bad to about 250m. Still not super flat but not too bad. Also, this load in my rifle has about 50ft/lbs of recoil as opposed to the 70ft/lbs of the factory/ Woodleigh reloads.
Also, I've never used Barnes projectiles before (being Australian I use Woodleigh exclusively) so that is another thing that might be fun.

So, that is food for thought - but I really want to use the 480-510gn load that really makes the .458 what it is...

Cheers,

Russ

Russ , Know that should you ever find yourself in Bangladesh ... I shall happily guide you on 1 free shikar for a sambhur deer . Bring your .458 Winchester magnum calibre rifle along with you . It works beautifully for sambhur deer with a premium quality soft point bullet . Our sambhur deer are as large as an American elk .
Countless of my American clients have used .458 Winchester magnum calibre rifles against sambhur deer with successful results . It is ( admittedly ) a little too big for them , but only just. You shall not feel like it is over kill.
When I visited Australia in 1979 to hunt my Kangaroo , I heard that sambhur deer exist in Australia as well . And some people were also using .458 Winchester magnum calibre rifles on sambhur deer in Australia , too.

 

[Badboymelvin]

Russ , Know that should you ever find yourself in Bangladesh ... I shall happily guide you on 1 free shikar for a sambhur deer . Bring your .458 Winchester magnum calibre rifle along with you . It works beautifully for sambhur deer with a premium quality soft point bullet . Our sambhur deer are as large as an American elk .
Countless of my American clients have used .458 Winchester magnum calibre rifles against sambhur deer with successful results . It is ( admittedly ) a little too big for them , but only just. You shall not feel like it is over kill.
When I visited Australia in 1979 to hunt my Kangaroo , I heard that sambhur deer exist in Australia as well . And some people were also using .458 Winchester magnum calibre rifles on sambhur deer in Australia , too.

Major Khan,

That is a very kind thing to offer and I thank you very much. If I'm ever in Bangladesh (and never say never as my wife's passion is travelling) I will definitely take you up on your generous offer.
Let's see if I can restore your faith a bit in the .458!

Yes, we have Sambar deer in Australia and yes the .458 is frequently used. I have harvested a few - but alas never with the .458. I've gone out a few times with the .458 but they have always eluded me..
But the Sambar deer here in Australia wouldn't be the same as yours over in Bangladesh and it would be a hunting highlight to hunt one with you.

Just as a side note, you mentioned Terry Irwin.
A member here who's also a great fan of the .458 (and I'm hoping he'll chime in) actually wrote to Mr Irwin in regard to his experience with the .458.
I won't re-post the letter as it's not mine to re-post, but he replied that he NEVER had a problem with the .458 and he killed approx 1000 elephants with it.
He also stated that it gave better penetration than his .375H&H.
His words not mine!
He did state though that his rifle had a 26" barrel - and he told the manufacturer that he wanted 24" - but they refused saying you needed 26" to get the claimed velocity.
I think 1000 elephants is a pretty good endorsement.

He also wrote to Richard Harland and got a similar response.
Speaking of Mr Harland, I have personally seen a written response from him stating that, and I quote;
"I am pleased you had good results with your .458 - it bears out my contention that one needs nothing more for the biggest game. My loads go spot on 2150fps with 500gr bullets and I used these most recently on
tusk-less cow elephant and buffalo..."

As the saying goes, we all choose our experts. And these 2 gentleman are the experts I choose because they have both shot more elephant than I can even get my head around. And today, we have better bullets and powders than they did back then...

Another thing (sorry, I know I'm rambling!) is that when the .458 is mentioned - everyone quips in and says it MUST be used 'with good handloads' or 'with careful handloads'
I find this confusing as when using ANY cartridge designed for DG, shouldn't they all be 'good' and 'carefully assembled'? And shouldn't they all be thoroughly tested and fresh?

Anyway, just my opinion!

Cheers,

Russ

 

[CJW]

Any mention of the particular bullets he used?

Thanks

 

[Major Khan]

Any mention of the particular bullets he used?

Thanks

Richard Harland used hand loaded 465 grain monolithic solid brass bullets in his .458 Winchester magnum calibre Mannlicher Schoenaur rotary magazine bolt rifle , CJW . This is according to Pierre Van Der Walt's 2011 book , " Dangerous African Game Cartridges " . I own the book and it is excellent.
I should add a a small note about Mr . Harland . While he did speak quite highly of the .458 Winchester magnum calibre Mannlicher Schoenaur rotary magazine bolt rifle which we was using .... it must be borne in mind that this was his ISSUED game department rifle . For his personal use , he prefers a .505 Gibbs calibre magnum Mauser 98 action bolt rifle , built by George Gibbs in 1927 . This , he used with hand loaded 600 grain Barnes solid metal covered bullets for dropping the biggest bull elephants .

The 3 biggest supporters of the .458 Winchester magnum calibre rifle ( who used it as the absolute " Biggest Bore " rifle present in their battery ) are, to the best of my knowledge :
1)Terry Irwin . He used to own a Mannlicher Schoenaur rotary magazine bolt rifle , chambered in .458 Winchester magnum calibre. He would use Remington 500 grain solid metal covered cartridges for hunting African elephants and cape buffaloes. Later , he also began to hand load .
2) John Coleman . He used to carry a pre 64 Winchester Model 70 bolt rifle, chambered in .458 Winchester magnum .
He would only use fresh Winchester " Super X " 500 grain solid metal covered factory loaded cartridges for hunting African elephants and cape buffaloes
3) Dennis Black Beard . He used to carry a Fabrique Nationale Mauser 98 action bolt rifle , chambered in .458 Winchester magnum .He would use fresh Winchester " Super X " 500 grain solid metal covered factory loaded cartridges for dispatching African elephants and cape buffaloes .

 

[Badboymelvin]

Major Khan,

Great post and very knowledgable as well.

Speaking of Mr Harland I found another great quote from him...

"I think an important point with 'which rifle to use', be it a question of double or bolt action, .400, .500 or .600 calibre, etc., is "do you love that weapon?" To enjoy handling and to use regularly the rifle of one's choice means one will have confidence in it and will shoot well with it."

Love it. And that's why I choose my .458

Cheers,

Russ

 

[CJW]

Great post Major Khan. So much drool worthy information. The holy grail Schoenaur rotary magazine. The equally worthy George Gibbs 505. I'll have to find that book.

The monolithic solids have been a game changer in bullets but apparently the fully jacketed bullets also worked well or at least well enough. The trend now being flatter front bullets with more of a crushing/cutting face and hopefully less deflection.

Melvin, I don't know how popular the barnes tsx are down there but here in the states they are regarded as one of the best bullets available when considering both traditional and all copper bullets. I talked with a gentleman at the shooting range last year who uses the I believe 62 gr. ttsx in his .223 for whitetails, and we have big whitetails, with complete success. I've read great reviews about their use in Africa as well on all game except eles.

Regards

 

[Badboymelvin]

Great post Major Khan. So much drool worthy information. The holy grail Schoenaur rotary magazine. The equally worthy George Gibbs 505. I'll have to find that book.

The monolithic solids have been a game changer in bullets but apparently the fully jacketed bullets also worked well or at least well enough. The trend now being flatter front bullets with more of a crushing/cutting face and hopefully less deflection.

Melvin, I don't know how popular the barnes tsx are down there but here in the states they are regarded as one of the best bullets available when considering both traditional and all copper bullets. I talked with a gentleman at the shooting range last year who uses the I believe 62 gr. ttsx in his .223 for whitetails, and we have big whitetails, with complete success. I've read great reviews about their use in Africa as well on all game except eles.

Regards

The TSX are a popular projectile down here in Oz and just like in the States, they seem to divide people.
Some like them because of their weight retention - and some hate them because of how hard they are.
I would have no hesitation whatsoever in trying the 450gn TSX in my .458...

Australia also has a new local projectile called the Atomic29 and this seems to be getting a small but loyal following.
It is a similar design to the Barnes being all copper (or something similar) and I have read very good results on them. They make a 450gn .458 and I've been tempted quite a few times to trying them out...

Woodleigh are very popular here too in the bigger cals and the Woodleigh Hydro gets great reviews on game such as ele and buffalo. Their penetration is out of this world.
I sound a bit like a stuck record but I would also try the Hydro's in my .458 in a heartbeat.
The only fly in the ointment is the price of the Hydro's... they're expensive!
Not an issue if you're hunting DG, but if you're not you really need to justify to yourself if they're worth it. I'm still figuring that out...

Cheers,

Russ

 

[Major Khan]

Great post Major Khan. So much drool worthy information. The holy grail Schoenaur rotary magazine. The equally worthy George Gibbs 505. I'll have to find that book.

The monolithic solids have been a game changer in bullets but apparently the fully jacketed bullets also worked well or at least well enough. The trend now being flatter front bullets with more of a crushing/cutting face and hopefully less deflection.

Melvin, I don't know how popular the barnes tsx are down there but here in the states they are regarded as one of the best bullets available when considering both traditional and all copper bullets. I talked with a gentleman at the shooting range last year who uses the I believe 62 gr. ttsx in his .223 for whitetails, and we have big whitetails, with complete success. I've read great reviews about their use in Africa as well on all game except eles.

Regards

During our time , CJW ... the very BEST bullets available on the market for a hand loader to load his .458 Winchester magnum calibre cartridges with, were the 500 grain solid metal covered bullets manufactured by the American brand , Hornady. The steel " jackets " on these excellent bullets were extraordinarily thick and strong . They used to be available as a hand loading component back in those days . When fired from a .458 Winchester magnum calibre rifle... I have never seen a single 1 of these bullets ever distort . You could always count on them ( in freshly loaded ammunition) to break the shoulder of a 2000 pound male gaur bison and penetrate in to it's heart , with utter impunity . Unfortunatey , Hornady bullets no longer enjoy their once stellar reputation against dangerous game any
more , these days ... like they once used to .
The very 1st monolithic solid brass bullets were actually introduced by a company named , " A Square " . This was approximately 16 years after I had retired from being a professional shikaree.
These early monolithic solid brass bullets lacked any " Bands " on them. This lead to increased strain upon barrel riflings .
Brand new rifles were having the rifling inside their barrels , wear out after less than 500 firings when utilizing the A Square monolithic solid brass bullets . Fortunately , development in all ammunition ( be it , traditional solid metal covered bullets or modern monolithic solid brass bullets ) has greatly improved and gotten advanced , over the years .

 

[IvW]

Richard Harland used hand loaded 465 grain monolithic solid brass bullets in his .458 Winchester magnum calibre Mannlicher Schoenaur rotary magazine bolt rifle , CJW . This is according to Pierre Van Der Walt's 2011 book , " Dangerous African Game Cartridges " . I own the book and it is excellent.
I should add a a small note about Mr . Harland . While he did speak quite highly of the .458 Winchester magnum calibre Mannlicher Schoenaur rotary magazine bolt rifle which we was using .... it must be borne in mind that this was his ISSUED game department rifle . For his personal use , he prefers a .505 Gibbs calibre magnum Mauser 98 action bolt rifle , built by George Gibbs in 1927 . This , he used with hand loaded 600 grain Barnes solid metal covered bullets for dropping the biggest bull elephants .

The 3 biggest supporters of the .458 Winchester magnum calibre rifle ( who used it as the absolute " Biggest Bore " rifle present in their battery ) are, to the best of my knowledge :
1)Terry Irwin . He used to own a Mannlicher Schoenaur rotary magazine bolt rifle , chambered in .458 Winchester magnum calibre. He would use Remington 500 grain solid metal covered cartridges for hunting African elephants and cape buffaloes. Later , he also began to hand load .
2) John Coleman . He used to carry a pre 64 Winchester Model 70 bolt rifle, chambered in .458 Winchester magnum .
He would only use fresh Winchester " Super X " 500 grain solid metal covered factory loaded cartridges for hunting African elephants and cape buffaloes
3) Dennis Black Beard . He used to carry a Fabrique Nationale Mauser 98 action bolt rifle , chambered in .458 Winchester magnum .He would use fresh Winchester " Super X " 500 grain solid metal covered factory loaded cartridges for dispatching African elephants and cape buffaloes .

Richard used Winchester(Mainly) and Remington FMJ solids for culling work as issued by the game department.

 

[Major Khan]

Richard used Winchester(Mainly) and Remington FMJ solids for culling work as issued by the game department.

Sorry , IvW. You will know more than me .
I merely paraphrased Pierre Van Der Walt's book .

The author of the book has a photograph of himself with Richard Harland ( a gentleman wearing spectacles ) . Therefore , I assumed that he would be accurate about Mr. Harland.

 

[IvW]

Sorry , IvW. You will know more than me .
I merely paraphrased Pierre Van Der Walt's book .
View attachment 341050 View attachment 341051
The author of the book has a photograph of himself with Richard Harland ( a gentleman wearing spectacles ) . Therefore , I assumed that he would be accurate about Mr. Harland.

I personally know Richard. Yes he experimented with bullets for the 458WM after his culling years but never used them during the height of the culling. I can provide you with the bullet used and the loads as well as speeds if you wish and yes he shot many many elephant and is a true professional. He also guided a SA client to the largest bull elephant ever hunted in Rhodesia/Zim.

Meplat solid brass bullets heavy for caliber is what he used and prefers for his own hunting and guiding. That is why he made 600gr bullets for his 505 Gibbs and not lighter ones such as 525Gr.

Fred van der Westhuizen has a total of one DG animal to his name(unless he went on a DG hunting spree in the last few years), a buffalo cow shot with a bow, Pierre van der Walt is an author, although an avid hunter, according to my memory has 0 DG experience. Yes they do a lot of research and then publish...I always say do not always believe everything people say or write....

GS Custom bullets make 350, 400, 450 and 500 gr bullets they do not make a 465gr Flat nose bullet. They only started manufacturing bullets in 1993 and got into the newer designs only in 1999, see below. This is long after Richard was done culling elephants, although he did PH in this time....

Good day and welcome to our Website. I am Gina Schultz, owner of GS Custom Bullets. My father, Gerard Schultz, started the bulletsmithing business in 1993 when he was full time in custom rifle building. In January 1999 Jani, my twin sister, and I bought the business when Dad retired and, still with Dad's help, started expanding the range to cater for just about every need we could think of. Jani joined her husband in his business during 2001. We look forward to meeting you, be it by fax, phone or e-mail. Of course we welcome visitors to our facility, so if you are in the area, do come and visit.

As for North Fork Cup point bullets mentioned, these are expanding bullets and Richard would never have used those on Elephant, buffalo maybe but elephant never.

They made a 450gr not 465gr..

Cup Point Solid(CPS):
The North Fork Cup Point performs like no bullet you have ever experienced. It penetrates deep like a solid but with a larger permanent wound channel. By adding a shallow cup to the front of the bullet, North Fork has created an "expanding solid", ideal for up close tough game.

North Fork Bullets have a highly regarded track record around the world. Whether you are on a once in a lifetime safari or are hunting in your own backyard, have confidence on the hunt with North Fork.

North Fork has been producing hunting bullets for over a decade. Each bullet starts off from pure copper and is then coupled with pure lead to create a strong yet accurate bullet design. The Smart Band Technology (SBT) is featured on every one of the bullets. These grooves not only help to eliminate fouling, they also help to reduce pressure and increase accuracy. They also prevent the barrel rifling from engraving the bullet. Flat Point Bonded Core bullets feature a large shallow cup to the front of bullet nose that creates an expanding solid. This is not loaded ammunition.

 

[Major Khan]

I personally know Richard. Yes he experimented with bullets for the 458WM after his culling years but never used them during the height of the culling. I can provide you with the bullet used and the loads as well as speeds if you wish and yes he shot many many elephant and is a true professional. He also guided a SA client to the largest bull elephant ever hunted in Rhodesia/Zim.

Meplat solid brass bullets heavy for caliber is what he used and prefers for his own hunting and guiding. That is why he made 600gr bullets for his 505 Gibbs and not lighter ones such as 525Gr.

Fred van der Westhuizen has a total of one DG animal to his name(unless he went on a DG hunting spree in the last few years), a buffalo cow shot with a bow, Pierre van der Walt is an author, although an avid hunter, according to my memory has 0 DG experience. Yes they do a lot of research and then publish...I always say do not always believe everything people say or write....

GS Custom bullets make 350, 400, 450 and 500 gr bullets they do not make a 465gr Flat nose bullet. They only started manufacturing bullets in 1993 and got into the newer designs only in 1999, see below. This is long after Richard was done culling elephants, although he did PH in this time....

Good day and welcome to our Website. I am Gina Schultz, owner of GS Custom Bullets. My father, Gerard Schultz, started the bulletsmithing business in 1993 when he was full time in custom rifle building. In January 1999 Jani, my twin sister, and I bought the business when Dad retired and, still with Dad's help, started expanding the range to cater for just about every need we could think of. Jani joined her husband in his business during 2001. We look forward to meeting you, be it by fax, phone or e-mail. Of course we welcome visitors to our facility, so if you are in the area, do come and visit.

As for North Fork Cup point bullets mentioned, these are expanding bullets and Richard would never have used those on Elephant, buffalo maybe but elephant never.

They made a 450gr not 465gr..

Cup Point Solid(CPS):
The North Fork Cup Point performs like no bullet you have ever experienced. It penetrates deep like a solid but with a larger permanent wound channel. By adding a shallow cup to the front of the bullet, North Fork has created an "expanding solid", ideal for up close tough game.

North Fork Bullets have a highly regarded track record around the world. Whether you are on a once in a lifetime safari or are hunting in your own backyard, have confidence on the hunt with North Fork.

North Fork has been producing hunting bullets for over a decade. Each bullet starts off from pure copper and is then coupled with pure lead to create a strong yet accurate bullet design. The Smart Band Technology (SBT) is featured on every one of the bullets. These grooves not only help to eliminate fouling, they also help to reduce pressure and increase accuracy. They also prevent the barrel rifling from engraving the bullet. Flat Point Bonded Core bullets feature a large shallow cup to the front of bullet nose that creates an expanding solid. This is not loaded ammunition.

This makes a great deal of sense . Thank you , IvW . I was wondering why Mr. Walt also recommends the .423 Mauser ( 10.75 x 68 mm ) as a suitable cartridge for African elephant and Cape Buffalo . My own personal field experience with the .423 Mauser shows me that it is an extremely dismal choice for gaur bison and royal Bengal tiger . I cannot imagine it being used on African elephants and Cape Buffaloes. He speaks more from theory , than field experience .
He is also ignorant of the fact that “ full patch “ is a term used to describe solid metal covered bullets.
On the subject of Mr. Harland’s .505 Gibbs calibre rifle ....
I do have 1 article written by Mr. Harland where he recounts preferring 600 grain Barnes solid metal covered bullets ( “ Copper jacketed lead cored solids “ )

From the looks of this article ( Dated April of 2008 ) ... he seems to just have started using monolithic solid bullets from 2008. However , I may be mistaken.

 

[IvW]

I was wondering why Mr. Walt also recommends the .423 Mauser ( 10.75 x 68 mm ) as a suitable cartridge for African elephant and Cape Buffalo .

Because he has no experience hunting Elephant or Buffalo and must have read or heard something somewhere would be the only conclusion.....

Correct on Richards use of 600gr bullets in his 505 Gibbs.

 

[HWL]

I was wondering why Mr. Walt also recommends the .423 Mauser ( 10.75 x 68 mm ) as a suitable cartridge for African elephant and Cape Buffalo .

Because he has no experience hunting Elephant or Buffalo and must have read or heard something somewhere would be the only conclusion.....

I love this thread.....

I am proud owner of three .458 Win-Mags and a 10,75x68.....a 7x57 and a 6,5x54 Mannlicher-Schoenauser.

...I feel completely outgunned now!!!

I will tell my wife, that I have to go to town and spend a lot of money in gunshops.....



HWL

 

[Major Khan]

I love this thread.....

I am proud owner of three .458 Win-Mags and a 10,75x68.....a 7x57 and a 6,5x54 Mannlicher-Schoenauser.

...I feel completely outgunned now!!!

I will tell my wife, that I have to go to town and spend a lot of money in gunshops.....



HWL

The .423 Mauser calibre is excellent for Wild Boars , HWL.