.458 Super X factory ammo question

[Major Khan]

No offense guys but can we not turn this into a 458wm bashing or debate thread? He already has the rifle and plans on using it.

Thanks

None taken , CJW . I myself encouraged him to go for it . He is quite passionate about the .458 Winchester magnum calibre and it would be a shame for him not to take it out on his dream safari.

 

[IvW]

IvW, I loathe the .458 Winchester magnum calibre for dangerous game as much as you do ( probably more , because my professional shikaree partner lost a kidney after getting gored by a gaur bison which was wounded by a client's .458 Winchester magnum calibre rifle ) . However , is it even a poor choice for non dangerous African game ?

Yes....

 

[IvW]

No offense guys but can we not turn this into a 458wm bashing or debate thread? He already has the rifle and plans on using it.

Thanks

• Gemsbok - my absolute favourite animal in the world
• Blue Wildebeest - because I can't afford Buffalo!
• Kudu - because I have too, it's Africa!
• Warthog - because... just because!

For this?? Please two rifles one a 458WM???

 

[bruce moulds]

• Gemsbok - my absolute favourite animal in the world
• Blue Wildebeest - because I can't afford Buffalo!
• Kudu - because I have too, it's Africa!
• Warthog - because... just because!

For this?? Please two rifles one a 458WM???

because he can?
both better than a 7x57 or a 6.5 mannlicher.
bruce.

 

[HWL]

because he can?
both better than a 7x57 or a 6.5 mannlicher.
bruce.

6,5mm Mannlicher.......

https://www.africahunting.com/media/hunting-blue-wildebeest-in-south-africa.79723/



HWL

 

[Badboymelvin]

I wouldnt use Winchester if they paid for my entire safari. The PowerPoint super X are the exact bullet that failed on me multiple times that caused me to never buy another Winchester product.

Long story short, they fragment even on soft tissue. My wife shot a deer perfectly (no bone) and it failed. How do I know? Switched her to Hornady and killed the same deer a year later and i recovered the bullet, actually just a jacket just under the skin on the ENTRANCE side. Winchester knows about the problem and wont recall the bullets because it's too expensive, they were rather rude when I told them i recovered it and had evidence of the failure

I'm not lying when I say if they offered a full bag 21 day safari and HAD to use their ammo I wouldnt go, and that's not something I can afford on my own. Absolute garbage product backed by an unethical company

Hey mate,

I'm sorry to hear that the 'Powerpoint' projectile let you down...

However, I've had good luck with them while hunting Sambar deer.
The rifle I used was a Winchester M70 in 270WSM and I was using the 150gn 'Powerpoint' Super X factory stuff.
I hit several Sambar deer deer with it and all but 1 were complete pass-throughs.
This included a large doe at over 300mts and it was a 1 shot kill with complete penetration.

The only bullet I've managed to recover was from a large stag that was shot in the shoulder and it was found on the opposite side beautifully mushroomed.
The recovered projectile weighed 110gn which I didn't think was too bad considering the bone, muscle etc... it had to go through...

I was also suitably impressed with the 510gn .458 projectile that still weighed 490gn after being shot clean through a large gum tree.

But none of this is to diminish the poor results that you had though...
Maybe certain caliber 'Powerpoint' projectiles are built more sturdily than others?
I have no idea why the ones I've fired have seemed to perform satisfactory while yours didn't? But I would not be happy if I experienced what you did...

Cheers,

Russ

 

[postoak]

Do you have a scope on your .458? I just looked and the MPBR for the .458 Win Mag 500 grain bullet is 200 yards for a 3" drop, just sight in 3" high at 100 yards. I don't think your expansion examples through a tree mean much, though. These bullets would probably not expand at all, or very little on lighter game than buffalo, but that's not to say they wouldn't effectively kill. It really comes down to how accurately you can shoot that rifle. BTW, how many of those Super Xs do you have? I looked and Winchester doesn't appear to load ammo for the .458 Win Mag any more.

 

[Badboymelvin]

IvW & Major Khan,

Firstly, I respect both of you gentleman a great deal and the vast experience that you both have.
You both add a great deal to this forum.
Even if I disagree with you on a topic, it doesn't diminish the fact that I have great respect and admiration for you both.
I have enjoyed reading posts and topics that you have both discussed on this forum and I have learnt from both of you and I appreciate that.

I know that you both have a dislike for the .458WM (especially IvW) and I have no doubt that you have good reasons for this.
Even though I don't specifically know all the in's and out's and why's, I have no doubt that it has let you down and for this you hold resentment... and no-one would ever hold that against someone.

I have owned 5 .458 Winchester Magnums in various makes of rifles and I have enjoyed all of them immensely.
It is my absolute favourite caliber (and putting aside factory ammo for a minute) I have had complete satisfaction hand-loading for it.
This is not said with any kind of arrogance - it's just that the .458 has always done what I've asked from it from a hand loading point of view.

All I've ever wanted from it was a 480-500gn projectile at 2150fps as I was told that this is a classic load.
And I achieved that.
With no signs of high pressure and with good accuracy.
I've actually achieved 2220fps with the Woodleigh PP and this load was worked up in the hot summer time in Australia. However, this was backed off as all I wanted was 2150fps.
I've since switched to the Woodleigh 480gn RNSP and this chrono's spot on at 2150fps. The bullet sits snugly on the powder so isn't heavily compressed and I have never, ever had a problem with excessive pressure.
I can even give you the load:
Winchester case
480gn Woodleigh RNSP
74gn of ADI 2206H
CCI Mag Primer

Now in regard's to the factory ammo I have acquired for it. I originally purchased it to shoot off as quickly as possible so I can reload the empties. However, when fired it chronographed to factory specs and was accurate in my rifle.
As I'm not hunting DG I feel that this ammo would be suitable for the game listed. Like I said, it's a bit of a nostalgia thing..

I have corresponded with various writers, bullet manufacturers and hunters who I respect and they have all assured me that a premium .458 projectile of 480gn's weight, fired at a real world velocity of 2150fps is absolutely suitable for any game that can be hunted.
Would a .500 be better for DG. Possibly, but only if you can shoot it accurately. I am sure I could not - as the above load is my absolute limit in regard to recoil tolerance.

Is the .458 the ideal caliber for the game I mentioned? No.
But it's my favourite caliber and my dream is to hunt Africa with it.
Is it legal? - Yes
Am I undergunned? - No
Is it unethical? - No
So, I really can't see the problem?
It's a hunting dream I want to fulfil - and fulfilling such a dream is something that shouldn't be held against someone. That's why we hunt.
If it means having to pass up a shot, well then thats the price I have to pay for fulfilling a hunting dream.
Back here in Australia the last few trips I've taken the .458 instead of the .300 Wby for deer.
Is the .458 a better deer cartridge that the .300?
No.
But I enjoy being in the bush with it so thats why I'm using it. I think we can all agree hunting with your favourite rifle adds something extra to a hunt...

So once again I understand that some people loath the .458 and that's fine.
I love it. And that's fine too.
I've worked up a good load that I feel confident with - and have been told by people who I respect, that I should feel confident with it.
I love being in the bush with a rifle I built up - and using a load I have carefully constructed - and when collecting an animal with that combination... well... that's why I hunt...

I wish you all a good day and please stay safe gentlemen.

Cheers,

Russ

 

[Badboymelvin]

Do you have a scope on your .458? I just looked and the MPBR for the .458 Win Mag 500 grain bullet is 200 yards for a 3" drop, just sight in 3" high at 100 yards. I don't think your expansion examples through a tree mean much, though. These bullets would probably not expand at all, or very little on lighter game than buffalo, but that's not to say they wouldn't effectively kill. It really comes down to how accurately you can shoot that rifle. BTW, how many of those Super Xs do you have? I looked and Winchester doesn't appear to load ammo for the .458 Win Mag any more.

Hi.

I have a Leupold 1.5-4x scope on it and looking at ballistics charts, it actually shoots flatter than I thought. It doesn't shoot flat! It just shoots flatter than I first thought.

I agree, the tree test doesn't mean much. But I did expect the bullets to fly apart and shed their cores - but they didn't. So l'll give them that...

I've got 100 rounds for it at the moment - but I'm getting it from a source who has 1000 rounds put away. No demand for it he reckons... or people just don't know he has it!
Score!
It is lucky I found this source as you noted, Winchester don't seem to make ammo for it anymore...
In fact, apart from some real expensive loaded ammo it really seems to be a reloading proposition these days...

Cheers,

Russ

 

[postoak]

I know it's opinion, but are you a good shot? Have you shot off sticks? Whatever you use you need to practice off sticks a lot, even if mostly just dry firing. If you find you aren't particularly good off sticks, then restrict your shots to 100 meters no matter what shots are offered you.

 

[bruce moulds]

I know it's opinion, but are you a good shot? Have you shot off sticks? Whatever you use you need to practice off sticks a lot, even if mostly just dry firing. If you find you aren't particularly good off sticks, then restrict your shots to 100 meters no matter what shots are offered you.

or learn to shoot without them
bruce,

 

[bruce moulds]

IvW & Major Khan,

Firstly, I respect both of you gentleman a great deal and the vast experience that you both have.
You both add a great deal to this forum.
Even if I disagree with you on a topic, it doesn't diminish the fact that I have great respect and admiration for you both.
I have enjoyed reading posts and topics that you have both discussed on this forum and I have learnt from both of you and I appreciate that.

I know that you both have a dislike for the .458WM (especially IvW) and I have no doubt that you have good reasons for this.
Even though I don't specifically know all the in's and out's and why's, I have no doubt that it has let you down and for this you hold resentment... and no-one would ever hold that against someone.

I have owned 5 .458 Winchester Magnums in various makes of rifles and I have enjoyed all of them immensely.
It is my absolute favourite caliber (and putting aside factory ammo for a minute) I have had complete satisfaction hand-loading for it.
This is not said with any kind of arrogance - it's just that the .458 has always done what I've asked from it from a hand loading point of view.

All I've ever wanted from it was a 480-500gn projectile at 2150fps as I was told that this is a classic load.
And I achieved that.
With no signs of high pressure and with good accuracy.
I've actually achieved 2220fps with the Woodleigh PP and this load was worked up in the hot summer time in Australia. However, this was backed off as all I wanted was 2150fps.
I've since switched to the Woodleigh 480gn RNSP and this chrono's spot on at 2150fps. The bullet sits snugly on the powder so isn't heavily compressed and I have never, ever had a problem with excessive pressure.
I can even give you the load:
Winchester case
480gn Woodleigh RNSP
74gn of ADI 2206H
CCI Mag Primer

Now in regard's to the factory ammo I have acquired for it. I originally purchased it to shoot off as quickly as possible so I can reload the empties. However, when fired it chronographed to factory specs and was accurate in my rifle.
As I'm not hunting DG I feel that this ammo would be suitable for the game listed. Like I said, it's a bit of a nostalgia thing..

I have corresponded with various writers, bullet manufacturers and hunters who I respect and they have all assured me that a premium .458 projectile of 480gn's weight, fired at a real world velocity of 2150fps is absolutely suitable for any game that can be hunted.
Would a .500 be better for DG. Possibly, but only if you can shoot it accurately. I am sure I could not - as the above load is my absolute limit in regard to recoil tolerance.

Is the .458 the ideal caliber for the game I mentioned? No.
But it's my favourite caliber and my dream is to hunt Africa with it.
Is it legal? - Yes
Am I undergunned? - No
Is it unethical? - No
So, I really can't see the problem?
It's a hunting dream I want to fulfil - and fulfilling such a dream is something that shouldn't be held against someone. That's why we hunt.
If it means having to pass up a shot, well then thats the price I have to pay for fulfilling a hunting dream.
Back here in Australia the last few trips I've taken the .458 instead of the .300 Wby for deer.
Is the .458 a better deer cartridge that the .300?
No.
But I enjoy being in the bush with it so thats why I'm using it. I think we can all agree hunting with your favourite rifle adds something extra to a hunt...

So once again I understand that some people loath the .458 and that's fine.
I love it. And that's fine too.
I've worked up a good load that I feel confident with - and have been told by people who I respect, that I should feel confident with it.
I love being in the bush with a rifle I built up - and using a load I have carefully constructed - and when collecting an animal with that combination... well... that's why I hunt...

I wish you all a good day and please stay safe gentlemen.

Cheers,

Russ

hey russ,
rather see you use the 458 that the 6.5 creedmoor.
bruce.

 

[Major Khan]

IvW & Major Khan,

Firstly, I respect both of you gentleman a great deal and the vast experience that you both have.
You both add a great deal to this forum.
Even if I disagree with you on a topic, it doesn't diminish the fact that I have great respect and admiration for you both.
I have enjoyed reading posts and topics that you have both discussed on this forum and I have learnt from both of you and I appreciate that.

I know that you both have a dislike for the .458WM (especially IvW) and I have no doubt that you have good reasons for this.
Even though I don't specifically know all the in's and out's and why's, I have no doubt that it has let you down and for this you hold resentment... and no-one would ever hold that against someone.

I have owned 5 .458 Winchester Magnums in various makes of rifles and I have enjoyed all of them immensely.
It is my absolute favourite caliber (and putting aside factory ammo for a minute) I have had complete satisfaction hand-loading for it.
This is not said with any kind of arrogance - it's just that the .458 has always done what I've asked from it from a hand loading point of view.

All I've ever wanted from it was a 480-500gn projectile at 2150fps as I was told that this is a classic load.
And I achieved that.
With no signs of high pressure and with good accuracy.
I've actually achieved 2220fps with the Woodleigh PP and this load was worked up in the hot summer time in Australia. However, this was backed off as all I wanted was 2150fps.
I've since switched to the Woodleigh 480gn RNSP and this chrono's spot on at 2150fps. The bullet sits snugly on the powder so isn't heavily compressed and I have never, ever had a problem with excessive pressure.
I can even give you the load:
Winchester case
480gn Woodleigh RNSP
74gn of ADI 2206H
CCI Mag Primer

Now in regard's to the factory ammo I have acquired for it. I originally purchased it to shoot off as quickly as possible so I can reload the empties. However, when fired it chronographed to factory specs and was accurate in my rifle.
As I'm not hunting DG I feel that this ammo would be suitable for the game listed. Like I said, it's a bit of a nostalgia thing..

I have corresponded with various writers, bullet manufacturers and hunters who I respect and they have all assured me that a premium .458 projectile of 480gn's weight, fired at a real world velocity of 2150fps is absolutely suitable for any game that can be hunted.
Would a .500 be better for DG. Possibly, but only if you can shoot it accurately. I am sure I could not - as the above load is my absolute limit in regard to recoil tolerance.

Is the .458 the ideal caliber for the game I mentioned? No.
But it's my favourite caliber and my dream is to hunt Africa with it.
Is it legal? - Yes
Am I undergunned? - No
Is it unethical? - No
So, I really can't see the problem?
It's a hunting dream I want to fulfil - and fulfilling such a dream is something that shouldn't be held against someone. That's why we hunt.
If it means having to pass up a shot, well then thats the price I have to pay for fulfilling a hunting dream.
Back here in Australia the last few trips I've taken the .458 instead of the .300 Wby for deer.
Is the .458 a better deer cartridge that the .300?
No.
But I enjoy being in the bush with it so thats why I'm using it. I think we can all agree hunting with your favourite rifle adds something extra to a hunt...

So once again I understand that some people loath the .458 and that's fine.
I love it. And that's fine too.
I've worked up a good load that I feel confident with - and have been told by people who I respect, that I should feel confident with it.
I love being in the bush with a rifle I built up - and using a load I have carefully constructed - and when collecting an animal with that combination... well... that's why I hunt...

I wish you all a good day and please stay safe gentlemen.

Cheers,

Russ

You have an extremely mature , polite and sensible manner of responding to disagreement , Russ. And I could not agree with you more.
I firmly believe that different people have different experiences in life , which leads them to form contradictory views . But all are true, and backed by good reason .
Many people do have exceptionally good fortune with the .458 Winchester magnum calibre . 2 African White Hunters , John Coleman and Terry Irwin come to mind . Both gentlemen have successfully used this calibre to dispatch hundreds of African elephants and cape buffaloes with utter impunity .
Just like I own 3 fire arms , but have a passion for hunting with my old Belgian shot gun ( practically exclusively ) ...
You have a passion for the .458 Winchester magnum calibre and I wholeheartedly respect and encourage that . Your intended game animal is a Wildebeest and with the chronograph results which you mention ...I have absolutely 0.00 doubt that you shall successfully take that Wildebeest .
I wish you many years of continued success with the .458 Winchester magnum calibre .

 

[shark_za]

I wouldnt use Winchester if they paid for my entire safari. The PowerPoint super X are the exact bullet that failed on me multiple times that caused me to never buy another Winchester product.
company

Wow, .458 Super X 500gr cannot penetrate an American deer??? I thought it was African animals that were tough.
I find this very hard to believe.

 

[postoak]

LOL, he didn't say he was using a .458 WM.

 

[mikecatt13]

LOL, he didn't say he was using a .458 WM.

That is correct, it was not a .458 lol. It was however a .270 at 100 yards. PLENTY of gun for whitetail.

I have what's left of the bullet as well as photos of the wound, scar, etc. All documented and 100% legit.

From research after the fact, winchester has a plethora of issues across many product lines and calibers

 

[IvW]

Makes no sense to haul 2 rifles down here for 4 PG animals on a first hunt, especially if one is a 458 Wm which is a very bad choice as a PG rifle to start with.

Of course each can do as they wish.

 

[1dirthawker]

Is the .458 the ideal caliber for the game I mentioned? No.
But it's my favourite caliber and my dream is to hunt Africa with it.
Is it legal? - Yes
Am I undergunned? - No
Is it unethical? - No
So, I really can't see the problem?
It's a hunting dream I want to fulfil - and fulfilling such a dream is something that shouldn't be held against someone. That's why we hunt.

russ,

i agree with you, go for it! i shot a blue wildebeest with a 400 gr bullet, going 2100 fps, at 190 yards. it did not bounce off, (450-400) and the BW went 30 yards. like you, i was surprised it shot flatter than i thought.

i also agree with you, IVW and Major Khan are both way more experienced than i with DG. they had bad experiences with the 458 win. you disagreed politely, nicely done. i feel exactly the same way toward both gentlemen as you do. i respect them both and enjoy their commentary.

i have a 458 win coming from a recent purchase from labman. i suspect i will shoot 400 or 450 gr bullets at brown bears and moose. i bet it wont bounce off of them either.

it will easily shoot 200 yards with a scope. i know the drops on my 450-400 and would shoot a moose at 300 yards with a good rest.

i say go for it, using a rifle you are fond of and confident in is actually the best reason for bringing a rifle to africa. otherwise, just rent a gun.

good luck with your safari, you will be back!!

don

 

[postoak]

Yeah, I don't see why the .458 is necessarily a bad plains game choice. After all, most people say restrict your shots to 150 yards and the .458 shoots plenty flat out to 200 yards. So there seems a conflict there. In reality, "plains game" can be found in areas where 200+ shots are often required and in bushveld areas where shots can be kept to less than 200 yards.

 

[shark_za]

It may have a bit of a rainbow trajectory but if you sight it in correctly and know the drop it will do no worse than my 45/70 at ranges under 150m.
If you are hunting the bushveld have all the fun shooting one of your rifles. If you are actually on the "plains" use something else.

On Winchester, the 6.5x55 140gr ammo clock an average 2353fps in my rifle. It makes me sad.