.458 Lott for Plains game?

[Red Leg]

Sure it will. Back to the original point, I Simply urge you not to get into multiple bullet weights and scopes on the same hunt. I personally think it is a heavier than necessary general purpose choice, but it will do the job out to any reasonable range .

 

[IvW]

The correct premium grade bullet from a 375 H&H placed in the right place will kill any buffalo. Yes a .400 or 458 same premium bullet will drop him faster. That is true for any hunting though and not only buffalo.

All rounder 375 H&H, less of an all rounder but still do able 400's, 458 is specialized DG and yes if the distances are reasonable you can use it for PG but it is not an all rounder. Do not try and make it what it is not.

For a mixed bag hunt including one buffalo nothing beats the 375 H&H with the right bullet.

Premium grade bullet, shot placement, shot placement, shot placement....

Bigger calibers do not compensate for poor shot placement and in some instances can make it worse...

 

[One Day...]

Did I get this straight?
According to Murphy, the expensive DG rifle makers have it wrong when they put a standing blade and a couple of folding blades in the iron sights. TIA: inevitably, you will have the wrong blade up when the buffalo takes an interest in you at 20 yards. KIS.

Ah ah ah, this is funny!

Actually, you are right on, because just as any hunter with any experience would keep the variable scope on the lowest setting, one would keep the folding blades down. One will likely have more time to crank the scope up or stand the right blade up (let's pretend for a second that someone would actually use the long distance blades) than one would likely have to crank everything down.

But in truth, as you probably know, a large number of modern makers do not put folding leaves on express sights anymore. This has proved to be vastly useless. Good luck using iron sights at 200 or 300 yd with a .450, .470, etc. ammo trajectory and a large diameter front bead

Pushing the reasoning to its logical end, one has to ask how many people actually remove the scope from their DG rifle, even at close range. What can be faster to acquire than a properly designed reticle, now often coupled with a red dot, on a single focal plan with a large and bright field of view? It would be an interesting question to ask on this thread...
I have clocked myself several time with my Mauser 66 .458 Lott: iron sights vs Docter III red dot; and on my CZ 550 .416 Rigby: iron sights vs Schmidt & Bender 1 1/4-4 x 20, and the results were not conclusive one way or another, meaning, in my opinion, that the proper optical sights are likely faster than iron sights with proper training...

CZ 550 .416 Rigby Rifle & Mauser 66 .458 Lott. Rifle

• One Day...
• Apr 11, 2018
• 1

Top: "improved" CZ 550 .416 Rigby.
Gentry 3 position safety; New England Custom Gun 5/32 white...

 

[One Day...]

If you are hunting buff you are likely in country with reasonably heavy bush. Plains game shots will not be long, 200 yards max. With 100 much more likely. If that is the case take your 500 gr load and shoot everything with it. I found myself in exactly that situation in Mozambique and had no issues at all.

AMEN!!!
I wish there was an option to double or triple click the "like" button

All rounder 375 H&H, less of an all rounder but still do able 400's, 458 is specialized DG and yes if the distances are reasonable you can use it for PG but it is not an all rounder. Do not try and make it what it is not.

There was a time some years back njc110381, when people used the word "stoppers" to describe some rifles, and I thought it made sense. Rifles of .45 calibers and up were never thought of as general purpose rifles, they were very specialized tools designed to stop charging animals. Hence the arms race toward larger diameter, heavier bullets, and the necessary powder loads to propel them to speeds producing a major shock to the recipient. Remember the KO value formula designed by 'Pondoro' Taylor? It's very name really captures the role of such weapons. The .458 Lott is a stopper. Period. And by all accounts a pretty good one.

Conversely, the .375 H&H was never designed to be a stopper, and to this day few would argue that it is one. I think I said somewhere in this thread that this is no accident that darn few pros, yesterday or today, pick(ed) the .375 H&H for themselves, although they recommend(ed) it for clients: it is too small to back a client with, but it is a good minimum caliber (emphasis: minimum, as stated in most DG countries regulations) for DG hunting, meaning it is the caliber most likely to be shot decently by visiting folks who are not accustomed to heavy recoiling rifles. The .375 H&H is a compromise between light and heavy, and one of the best at that. The .458 is resolutely standing on the heavy side, without the pretense of a compromise.

So, we are in a bit of apples and oranges discussion when discussing .375 H&H and .458 Lott. Back to the rapier vs. broadsword image used aptly by Red Leg in a different post

Can the .458 Lott be stretched to shoot PG at 200 yd, ABSOLUTELY but as I pointed in a previous post, one pays a fearful price in recoil, which some can live with and some cannot.

Can the .375 H&H be stretched to back up a client on a charging buff or elephant? Well... sort of... some do... but I sure prefer to have my PH back me up with something bigger...

So for plains game I've picked the wrong gun.

Well for PG exclusively, clearly you did, but for mixed bag PG/DG with buff on the menu, as WAB said, you are fine as long as 1) you keep your shots to 200 yd and 2) you can shoot accurately the beast, which we will not know until you try it

Don't mess up with 3 scopes, 5 loads, etc. though

 

[njc110381]

That's good. If I was intending to just shoot plains game I wouldn't use the Lott, there's no need. I'm very much set on hunting buffalo. It saddens me to see elephants being shot, not that I don't understand why it needs to happen and I certainly don't oppose it, I just don't think I'd like doing it myself.

 

[WAB]

That's good. If I was intending to just shoot plains game I wouldn't use the Lott, there's no need. I'm very much set on hunting buffalo. It saddens me to see elephants being shot, not that I don't understand why it needs to happen and I certainly don't oppose it, I just don't think I'd like doing it myself.

Funny, buffalo is the only thing I wanted to hunt in Africa as well. Folks told me to go for PG first, but no way, if I was going to fly all the way to Zambia I was going after buff. I think it's a combination of the animal and the way he is pursued, properly hunted on foot behind a capable tracker. I really wasn't keen to hunt elephant until the opportunity arose to shoot one of the last bulls shot in Botswana while I was there on a buffalo hunt (I did shoot the last buffalo harvested in Bots before the closure). I found that elephant hunting was like buffalo hunting on steroids and I truly hope I get the opportunity to do it again. I have since done a proper tracking hunt for eland in the Kalahari, and it ranks right up there as well. I wish I had had the opportunity to track a wild lion in the Kalahari before that came to an end, I have no interest in baited or captive bred lion (my preference only, no criticism intended). I hope you have a great hunt and that it is the first of many. IMO you have selected a fine caliber if your primary interest is buffalo. The Lott flat gets their attention and I suspect that you will find it manageable, beast though it is. Straight shots! Bill

 

[cagkt3]

If your scope is 'tactical' (tacticool?); is zeroed at 100 yd; and needs any distance over 100 yd to be clicked in: by definition you will have the wrong elevation clicked when you need to take the shot.

Just to be argumentative this is a mute point. You still know you are zeroed at 100 yds and know what your MPBR is. No clicking necessary.

 

[One Day...]

Just to be argumentative this is a mute point. You still know you are zeroed at 100 yds and know what your MPBR is. No clicking necessary.

Beg to respectfully disagree cagkt3, based on what you actually write, which may or may not be exactly what you mean ;-)

Bear with me a minute:

For a MPBR aim to work, your scope must be zeroed (i.e. point of impact = point of aim) at a distance much longer than 100 yd, typically anywhere between 250 and 300 yd with modern high velocity ammo; and depending on the size of the vital area your game has, typically 6" for smaller deer/antelopes and 8" for larger deer/antelopes.

For example, using MPBR aim for a 8" vital area with a 7 mm STW shooting 160 gr TSX at 3,150 fps, the path of your bullet will be +1.2" @ 50 yd, +3" @ 100 yd, +3.8" @ 150 yd, +3.5" @ 200 yd, and +2" @ 250 yd above your point of aim, then -0.8" @ 300 yd and -4.9" @ 350 yd below your point of aim. This is why the 8" vitals MPBR is 330 yd, because this is the distance before which the bullet path is never higher than 4" above line of sight, and at which the bullet path reaches 4" below line of sight / point of aim.

A really easy way to approximate MPBR calculations for a 6" vital area (standard on deer etc.) if you do not have the proper software and chronograph is to zero modern high velocity ammo (anything approaching 3,000 fps) at +2.5" at 100 yards. This will give you roughly a "point & shoot" MPBR (what we called earlier "point & click KISS") between 285 yd (270 Win 150 gr) and 295 / 305 yd (7 mm Rem Mag 160 gr / .300 Win Mag 180 gr). Anything more specific will require clocking the actual ammo in your own gun and plotting the path using the actual velocity and actual bullet ballistic coefficient.

For an 8" vital area, the same rule of thumb applies with a zeroing at +3" at 100 yd.

Well understood MPBR is a powerful tool...

I hope that this helps.
Pascal

PS: you may have wanted to say "You still know you are zeroed at 100 yds and know what your DROP is." The challenge with this is that unless you have a really good eye, really good memory and a cool head, you first need to laser range the exact distance, then you likely need to read a simplified ballistic table taped to your rifle stock, then you need to picture mentally what the drop value represents visually at the distance you shoot. A lot more delicate and time consuming thing to do than most people think ;-)

 

[bruce moulds]

good axplaination one day.
the zeros you suggest are what i have come to over the years.
bruce.

 

[Von S.]

I have never seen or heard anyone cry like a baby for shooting some big nasty animal with the largest most powerful cartridge they could find.

I have heard them say, " Holy Jumpin' Jebus Palomino! Did you see that thing go down?"

 

[WAB]

I have never seen or heard anyone cry like a baby for shooting some big nasty animal with the largest most powerful cartridge they could find.

I have heard them say, " Holy Jumpin' Jebus Palomino! Did you see that thing go down?"

The biggest buff I’ve shot was with my .458 Lott. He was quartering on at roughly 60 yds. The shot was perfect and knocked him back on his haunches, almost off his feet! He somehow recovered, ran about 80 yards and tipped over. The bullet was recovered under the skin on the off side hind quarter. It had transited almost the full length of the buffalo and still weighed 495 grains (trophy bonded bear claw). I love that Lott!

 

[Von S.]

The biggest buff I’ve shot was with my .458 Lott. He was quartering on at roughly 60 yds. The shot was perfect and knocked him back on his haunches, almost off his feet! He somehow recovered, ran about 80 yards and tipped over. The bullet was recovered under the skin on the off side hind quarter. It had transited almost the full length of the buffalo and still weighed 495 grains (trophy bonded bear claw). I love that Lott!

WAB

Well my Buffalo Bustin' Buddy....

Your Lott being somewhat more powerful than my 458 WinMag is most assuredly a fine dg ass wompper and not that much more recoil.

Some who read your post and never have has the pleasure of going guns with a cape may be scratching their head right now wondering why you appear to be pleased with a shot where the buff ran 80 extra after having his vitals blasted to hell.

They probably also can't understand how a sweet adorable Impala runs close to 100 after being shot in the chest with a 458 and having his heart blown out of his body.

And though no two animals or shots are the same, I have taken out a handful of capes with the 460 and the farthest one went was about 10 feet before it was kissing canvas.

Since my last trip to Africa I have got a few shoulder fired field pieces in the behemoth T-Rex and Over Kill that truthfully are just for very few people to shoot and way less to master.

In the past month or so I have dumped many boomers to the next generation of African hunters to look at endlessly while sitting next to the fire during the off season with a bottle of "Who Whipped Johnny" and a dream of standing tall before some rampaging beast to have him suck dirt at their feet with one well placed shot.

It's been a great ride......

 

[One Day...]

WAB and Von S. you guys are the practical ones. I am the softhearted eternal sentimental forever lost in the golden age romance...

Purchased and slicked up endlessly and lovingly my .458 Win Mauser 66 so the bolt literally moves forward and backward under its own weight; had Griffin & Howe open it carefully to Lott; fine-tuned patiently the feeding ramp and rails so it feeds in a fluid motion without any hard spot; put the appropriate size white front bead; sighted and filed slowly the express blade (no folding leaves to be confused with); stocked up on A Square Monolithic Solid, Lion Load and Dead Tough buff load; practiced enough to become really good with it... and... purchased a double (pre WWII classic Belgian Jules Bury .450 #2 initially, then modern .470 Kreighoff) !?!?!?!?

So, I have yet to actually shoot a buff with the Lott but considering what the .470 NE does on them, I can only imagine what the 200 fps faster Lott does, and I feel comfortable saying the Lott will all but skin'em, quarter'em & pack'em.

I am on Von S.' path: time to get my two sons on it, or, or, or... I have a PH friend who wants to barter the Kreighoff off my hands for a monster buff. Maybe I will do that, in which case the Lott will regain its status of favorite resident big hammer...

Ah, choices, choices...

But I can confirm in the mean time that the Lott (I still shoot A Square's ammo, so mine are 465 gr at 2,380 fps) will do quite the job on American deer LOL... (in my case out to ~220 yd with the slightly lighter and faster 465 gr slug). The very soft Lion Load literally throws them on the ground! Have yet to test the Dead Tough on a charging cement truck, but feel confident too..............

Welcome to the madhouse njc110381, you will fit right in, going after roebuck with the Lott

I need to visit WAB in Alabama and try the Lott on a pig. Bet you if you take it lengthwise the Lott will gut it for you!

 

[cagkt3]

Beg to respectfully disagree cagkt3, based on what you actually write, which may or may not be exactly what you mean ;-)

Bear with me a minute:

For a MPBR aim to work, your scope must be zeroed (i.e. point of impact = point of aim) at a distance much longer than 100 yd, typically anywhere between 250 and 300 yd with modern high velocity ammo; and depending on the size of the vital area your game has, typically 6" for smaller deer/antelopes and 8" for larger deer/antelopes.

For example, using MPBR aim for a 8" vital area with a 7 mm STW shooting 160 gr TSX at 3,150 fps, the path of your bullet will be +1.2" @ 50 yd, +3" @ 100 yd, +3.8" @ 150 yd, +3.5" @ 200 yd, and +2" @ 250 yd above your point of aim, then -0.8" @ 300 yd and -4.9" @ 350 yd below your point of aim. This is why the 8" vitals MPBR is 330 yd, because this is the distance before which the bullet path is never higher than 4" above line of sight, and at which the bullet path reaches 4" below line of sight / point of aim.
View attachment 261988

A really easy way to approximate MPBR calculations for a 6" vital area (standard on deer etc.) if you do not have the proper software and chronograph is to zero modern high velocity ammo (anything approaching 3,000 fps) at +2.5" at 100 yards. This will give you roughly a "point & shoot" MPBR (what we called earlier "point & click KISS") between 285 yd (270 Win 150 gr) and 295 / 305 yd (7 mm Rem Mag 160 gr / .300 Win Mag 180 gr). Anything more specific will require clocking the actual ammo in your own gun and plotting the path using the actual velocity and actual bullet ballistic coefficient.

For an 8" vital area, the same rule of thumb applies with a zeroing at +3" at 100 yd.

Well understood MPBR is a powerful tool...

I hope that this helps.
Pascal

PS: you may have wanted to say "You still know you are zeroed at 100 yds and know what your DROP is." The challenge with this is that unless you have a really good eye, really good memory and a cool head, you first need to laser range the exact distance, then you likely need to read a simplified ballistic table taped to your rifle stock, then you need to picture mentally what the drop value represents visually at the distance you shoot. A lot more delicate and time consuming thing to do than most people think ;-)

You are correct sir - I meant drop. Fair point on needing to keep a level head , and that it is a bit more complicated than a true MPBR.

I do enjoy your posts immensely though!

 

[njc110381]

Welcome to the madhouse njc110381, you will fit right in, going after roebuck with the Lott

I need to visit WAB in Alabama and try the Lott on a pig. Bet you if you take it lengthwise the Lott will gut it for you!

Well I've shot a mole with my .338 Win Mag, I suppose that could be similar! Big guns are fine for small quarry if the right bullet is used. I shot a whitetail with my .375H&H on my last Canada trip and that was messy. The 270gr Core Lokt separated and nearly cut it in half!

 

[Red Leg]

The biggest buff I’ve shot was with my .458 Lott. He was quartering on at roughly 60 yds. The shot was perfect and knocked him back on his haunches, almost off his feet! He somehow recovered, ran about 80 yards and tipped over. The bullet was recovered under the skin on the off side hind quarter. It had transited almost the full length of the buffalo and still weighed 495 grains (trophy bonded bear claw). I love that Lott!

WAB and Von S. you guys are the practical ones. I am the softhearted eternal sentimental forever lost in the golden age romance...

Purchased and slicked up endlessly and lovingly my .458 Win Mauser 66 so the bolt literally moves forward and backward under its own weight; had Griffin & Howe open it carefully to Lott; fine-tuned patiently the feeding ramp and rails so it feeds in a fluid motion without any hard spot; put the appropriate size white front bead; sighted and filed slowly the express blade (no folding leaves to be confused with); stocked up on A Square Monolithic Solid, Lion Load and Dead Tough buff load; practiced enough to become really good with it... and... purchased a double (pre WWII classic Belgian Jules Bury .450 #2 initially, then modern .470 Kreighoff) !?!?!?!?

So, I have yet to actually shoot a buff with the Lott but considering what the .470 NE does on them, I can only imagine what the 200 fps faster Lott does, and I feel comfortable saying the Lott will all but skin'em, quarter'em & pack'em.

I am on Von S.' path: time to get my two sons on it, or, or, or... I have a PH friend who wants to barter the Kreighoff off my hands for a monster buff. Maybe I will do that, in which case the Lott will regain its status of favorite resident big hammer...

Ah, choices, choices...

But I can confirm in the mean time that the Lott (I still shoot A Square's ammo, so mine are 465 gr at 2,380 fps) will do quite the job on American deer LOL... (in my case out to ~220 yd with the slightly lighter and faster 465 gr slug). The very soft Lion Load literally throws them on the ground! Have yet to test the Dead Tough on a charging cement truck, but feel confident too..............

Welcome to the madhouse njc110381, you will fit right in, going after roebuck with the Lott

I need to visit WAB in Alabama and try the Lott on a pig. Bet you if you take it lengthwise the Lott will gut it for you!

My biggest buffalo (in my avatar) was shot at around 70 yards quartering toward me in Caprivi. The heart chest shot dropped him in his tracks - literally. Not even a death moan, much less a bellow. We also recovered the bullet in his upper hip after transiting the length of the bull. Impossibly, I was using a 300 gr TSX from a .375. Of the other three, not one went over 40 yards after the first hit. Incredibly, they were also killed with a .375. One other with a 300 gr TSX and the other two with 300 gr A-Frames. Just seems impossible doesn't it? Amazingly, the same two rifles accounted for a respectable tally of PG as well.

Which is not to denigrate all those 40 somethings. As noted in a previous post, I own three. But, I do not encourage first time buffalo hunters to use them. And I find that I somehow keep using my Holland & Hollands. It is just really hard to beat an accurate .375. (Choir sings "Rule Britannia", audience stands to applaud, stage fades to black).

 

[WAB]

WAB

Well my Buffalo Bustin' Buddy....

Your Lott being somewhat more powerful than my 458 WinMag is most assuredly a fine dg ass wompper and not that much more recoil.

Some who read your post and never have has the pleasure of going guns with a cape may be scratching their head right now wondering why you appear to be pleased with a shot where the buff ran 80 extra after having his vitals blasted to hell.

They probably also can't understand how a sweet adorable Impala runs close to 100 after being shot in the chest with a 458 and having his heart blown out of his body.

And though no two animals or shots are the same, I have taken out a handful of capes with the 460 and the farthest one went was about 10 feet before it was kissing canvas.

Since my last trip to Africa I have got a few shoulder fired field pieces in the behemoth T-Rex and Over Kill that truthfully are just for very few people to shoot and way less to master.

In the past month or so I have dumped many boomers to the next generation of African hunters to look at endlessly while sitting next to the fire during the off season with a bottle of "Who Whipped Johnny" and a dream of standing tall before some rampaging beast to have him suck dirt at their feet with one well placed shot.

It's been a great ride......

Agreed Von. Until you shoot them it is hard to appreciate how tough the Cape buffalo is. I’ve shot brown bear with my .375 loaded with 270 gr A Frames. It literally knocks them down flat and they barely twitch. I have killed Cape buffalo with that same rifle loaded with 300 gr A Frames. It absolutely gets the job done, but my assessment is that bigger is better on these rascals (assuming good shot placement with both). I just believe that the margin for error is greater with the Lott. And in the off chance i do end up in a follow-up situation, although I trust my PH, I feel better with a gun in my hands that is capable of stopping a charge. Bill

PS if you’re in Dallas, let me buy you a drink.

 

[Insomniaddict]

I've just been looking at load data for the Lott and it looks like with careful bullet selection I can develop something that will give me about 250 yards range without having to hold over/under by much. If I zero a 350gr bullet at 200m it will shoot up to just under 3" high at around 110m, and 4" low at 250. After that it's like throwing bricks! I don't much like shooting over 200m anyway. I enjoy a failed stalk to get closer more than I enjoy sniping at animals, just personal preference.

How many members have used the Lott for plains game? I don't have any plans to shoot them but if travelling all that way for a buffalo it would make sense to try to take a few others whilst I'm there?

With my CZ 458 Lott, I have been using Hornady 500 ammo for sight in at 75 yards. I then tried many different brands of 350 grain ammo to find a pair that matches. Luckily, I found one that in my rifle will hit center at 200 yards. Trying to replicated this with handload is a bit of work, but I will succeed. Having two brands of ammo or two different bullet weights hit to two different ranges and still hit in the center of the target is more than anyone can ask for in a heavy rifle. I can shoot coyotes out to 250 yards and practice, and then keep 1.5" groups at 50 yards with my express sights immediately after without even cleaning the barrel. This takes patience with factory ammo and more patience with handloads. I feel that I can shoot 6" groups off sticks at 200 yards and that is good enough for Antelope or Elk.

 

[WoodencrossIII]

I have been reading through here and I am wanting to try my Lott with some lighter bullets for deer. Will Hornady FTX be too soft at Lott velocity or do they hold up well? I’m looking into using maybe 300 gr and I have found some Barnes 250 gr TSX that I think will work great and would make this even reach out there as a PG with good Barnes bullets.

 

[sierraone]

My two cents about your question. I don't own a .458 Win Mag or a Lott. I have taken one buffalo, and killed it with one shot at 90 yards with my .404 J with a 400 grain Barnes TSX. BUT more relative to your question....Several years ago I attended the Tulsa Arms Show. Met a couple that were big pig (hog) hunters. They used .458 Win Mags exclusively if I remember correctly. They used (and bought) 350 grain rounds for their .458s that were reloaded by a local hand loaded that always had a booth in Tulsa. Don't know if that helps any or not, but that is about all I know on the subject. Will 350 grains take a buff...I don't know....Good Luck