.458 Lott for Plains game?

[njc110381]

I've only ever shot red deer with my STW. It knocks them flat and it's quite pleasant to shoot.

I agree with the point about dialling. I've never dialled a shot deer hunting, there's just no need at sporting ranges. I guess allowing 4" as my kill zone plus a couple of MOA for the group size will put me about right on the quoted ranges?

 

[bruce moulds]

experience with the stw has shown it to be a wonderful round.
aim dead on out to 300 with the correct zero.
its strength is also its weakness.
while its velocity offers wonderfully flat trajectories, it also requires that no cup and core bullet is safe at closer ranges on game bigger than deer.
my own loads have come down to 150 gn barnes at 3,300, and 160 gn nosler partition at 3,200.
the barnes is used for bigger animals, and the nosler for red deer and smaller sized game.
the reason is that when the nose blows off the n.p., side on chest shots on smaller game are effective.
when the n.p. ammo is used up, that bullet will be replaced by 160gn swift aframes, which will then probably negate the barnes as well.
both loads zero near enough to use the same sight setting out to 300.
speaking of using the same sight settings, the 375 h&h offers this too.
with a 300 gn bullet (swift or northfork or solid) dead on at 100 will also put a 270 high enough to have a trajectory useful to 200/250.
great versatility here.
bruce.

 

[bruce moulds]

speaking of the trajectory of the stw reminds me of a john wayne western.
his son turned up to a gunfight with an up yo date latest technology 6.5 mannlicher.
john wayne stated that it shot flat to 300.
well compared to a 44/40 it was a vast improvement.
but where would that leave the stw for point blank range using the same logic.
bruce.

 

[njc110381]

Who knows?! A long way! I don't shoot mine much. I bought it thinking I'd just shoot it out and stick a .375H&H barrel on it, but now I have it I really like it. It only comes out on special occasions, the rest of the time I use my 6.5x55.

You say no cup and core bullet is safe? Will it even blow up a 160gr Accubond close in then? I got a good stock of them with the rifle along with some 140gr Ballistic Tips. Only thing I've shot with the BT's is a fox... it was a humane kill!

I've kind of got my heart set on a Lott. I may well end up learning that it's not the ideal round for me but I don't mind. It would be nice to own one for a while even if I do trade down before I end up getting to Africa. I can be realistic, but when I have my heart set on something I'll try it. There's no harm in learning from fun mistakes!

 

[IvW]

You say no cup and core bullet is safe? Will it even blow up a 160gr Accubond close in then?

An Accubond is not a cup and core bullet

 

[Red Leg]

IvW is exactly correct. The Accubond and ilk are bonded core. They do not blow up like traditional cup and core SP’s.

 

[bruce moulds]

depends how fast they are when they hit.
there are reports of them doing just that at high speeds.
likewise swift scirocco.
bruce.

 

[One Day...]

.458 Lott for Plains game? x8 scope on DG rifle? military reticles and sniper techniques for hunting? etc. etc.?

Yeah, sure, why not? There is also a thread about a guy wanting to take a .450 Bushmaster on plains game. Heck, anything can work! Actually everything WILL work with a little thinking...

But THAT IS THE POINT: A LITTLE THINKING... Murphy being the usual uninvited guest, and as Shootist43, Red Leg, or others have already hinted, a little thinking time or cool-headedness is generally the missing part of the equation...

Conversely, here are a couple constants in said equation, taken directly from the big TIA Book (TIA means "This Is Africa" in case you are wondering ;-)

1. If your .458 Lott carries a fixed x8 scope: by definition you will be the very rare client who actually needs to shoot in self defense, and the lion/leo/buff will be on you before you even find it at 20 yd in that scope.
2. If you carry in the field two different scopes: by definition the wrong one will be on the rifle when you need to take the shot.
3. If you carry in the field different loads: by definition the wrong one will be in the pipe when you need to take the shot. The one exception of course is to have solids to backup the softs, but with all of them shooting to the same point of impact.
4. If your scope is 'tactical' (tacticool?); is zeroed at 100 yd; and needs any distance over 100 yd to be clicked in: by definition you will have the wrong elevation clicked when you need to take the shot.
5. If you are using the 'Christmas tree' reticle: by definition you will pick the wrong branch in the excitement of a quick shot at a once in a lifetime trophy in Africa.
6. Need I go any further?

The antidote to TIA "This Is Africa" is KIS "Keep It Simple" (many spell it KISS and add "stupid").

• One load at a time in the field.
• One trajectory at a time in the field.
• Low power variable (x 1.5-6) scope always on lowest setting (what marketing 'genius' ever invented that anyone needs more than x6 to hunt anyways?).
• Rifle sighted for 6" vitals, +-3" maximum point blank range (MPBR) (OK, 8" vitals +- 4" MPBR on larger game: elk/moose/wildebeest, kudu, etc. IF you are a cool hand and do not add too much of the personal MOA variable Red Leg was discussing).
• Need I go any further?

Bottom line: 'Point and click' KISS from zero to 300 yd!

Anything further requires deliberation anyway...

Note that you can do all that with a .458 Lott if you like, even with 500 gr bullets, it shoots flat enough that you can do anything you want with it out to 2oo yd. Sighted 3" high at 100 yd, it will be less than an inch low at 200 yd. That gives you a good chance at that new world record kudu crossing your buffalo track, although, as IvW pointed a .404 / .416 would make more sense in this dual purpose role, and as Red Leg and many others would argue, the .375 H&H might make even more sense...

Africa does bizarre things to otherwise reasonably sane and experienced people, "keep it simple" is a really, really good advice

My personal KISS on PG has evolved to a stainless/kevlar .340 Wby with 225 gr TTSX. Any place, any weather, can't rust, can't warp, one load, one trajectory, duiker to eland, o to 300 yd (400 yd on a follow up shot), put the cross hair on it, squeeze the trigger...

If the big stuff is not on the menu, same concept with a matched .257 wby...

Best
Pascal

 

[One Day...]

What I've failed to think about is the size of the kill zone. I'm not head shooting rabbits, I'm aiming at a heart the size of a watermelon.

Looking at the Hornady ammunition website the info is a little unclear. Annoyingly with all the bigger DGX loads the zero used is 100m, but the .375 is 200m. So it's hard to compare. At 300 yards with a 100 yard zero the Lott drops 25.1", the .404 Jeff 24.4" and the .416 Rigby 21.6". An extra 3.5" at 300 yards isn't worth fussing about I don't think, at 200 yards there's an inch between the best and the worst. According to my calculations which I can't guarantee to be the same as Hornady's, the 300gr H&H drops the same as the 400gr Rigby loading.

Of course some real world testing is needed to see what the actual figures are, but if those figures are somewhere handy then the only issue I can see is the recoil of the Lott making it harder to place the shot as accurately as I could with a .375?
Approximate maximum PBR for a 4" kill zone is;
.375H&H 195 yards
.416 Rigby 190 yards
.404 Jeff 180 yards
.458 Lott 180 yards

7STW which is my other option as a 2 gun trip, 245 yards with a 160gr Accubond. A big difference being that at 300 yards the Lott has dropped as much as the STW will at 450! Handy for following up a fluffed shot I suppose, but I'll not be shooting animals at anywhere near that distance otherwise. I'd rather watch and enjoy them without shooting than treat them like I would a paper target.

Allow me one suggestion njc110381.
Spend $15 on the Shooter app for your phone. This will change your world if you have an interest in ballistics in the real world. You will soon thereafter spend $85 to purchase a Caldwell chronograph (https://www.amazon.com/Caldwell-720001-Ballistic-Precision-Chronograph/dp/B00HTN5DTE) to know what velocity actual loads develop in your actual rifle, and you will spend the rest of your shooting life wondering how you had managed to live without them.
As for hunting MPBR, this will replace 'guestimating' with data...
Trust me on this one ;-)

The data on the 7 mm STW is as follows for a 160 gr TSX at 3,150 fps:
+1.2" @ 50 yd, +3" @ 1oo yd, +3.8" @ 150 yd, +3.5" @ 200 yd, +2" @ 250 yd, -0.8" @ 300 yd, -4.9" @ 350 yd, -10.6 @ 400 yd.
MPBR for 8" vital area: 330 yd.

 

[One Day...]

.375 H&H / .416 Rigby / .458 Lott for DG/PG mixed bag: the data...

.375 H&H 300 gr Partition 2,440 pfs:
+1.4" @ 50 yd, +3" @ 100 yd, +2.9" @ 150 yd, +0.9" @ 200 yd, -3.1" @ 250 yd, -9.3" @ 300 yd.
Recoil in 10 1/2 lbs rifle: 31 ft/lbs.
8" vital MPBR: 260 yd.

.416 Rigby 400 gr TSX 2,410 pfs:
+1.5" @ 50 yd, +3" @ 100 yd, +2.8" @ 150 yd, +0.7" @ 200 yd, -3.6" @ 250 yd, -10.1" @ 300 yd.
Recoil in 10 1/2 lbs rifle: 55 ft/lbs.
8" vital MPBR: 250 yd.

.458 Lott 500 gr DGS / DGX-B 2,305 pfs:
+2.2" @ 50 yd, +3" @ 100 yd, +1.8" @ 150 yd, -1.7" @ 200 yd, -7.8" @ 250 yd.
Recoil in 10 1/2 lbs rifle: 67 ft/lbs.
8" vital MPBR: 210 yd.

.416 Rigby 400 gr flies as flat as .375 H&H 300 gr out to 250 yd MPBR but with x 1.8 time more recoil.
.458 Lott 500 gr flies as flat as .375 H&H 300 gr out to 210 yd MPBR but with x 2.2 time more recoil.

Vital areas:
Based on Jack O'Connor's book The Hunting Rifle and other sources, the vital areas of common game are:

• Pronghorn / small deer / small African antelopes: ~8" to 9"
• Medium size deer / medium African antelope: ~10" to 11"
• Large deer / North American wild sheep / mountain goat: ~11" to 14"
• Elk / large African antelope: ~14" to 16"
• Moose / Eland: ~18" to 21"

 

[bruce moulds]

one day,
your 375 muzzle velocity looks a little low.
try 2550.
another bullet to consider is the 270 barnes at maybe 2650+.
bruce.

 

[One Day...]

one day, your 375 muzzle velocity looks a little low. try 2550. another bullet to consider is the 270 barnes at maybe 2650+. bruce.

2,440 is what Federal quotes for its Premium load but I agree that many 300 gr loads (commercial or private) will get over 2,550 fps.

To simplify the iterative process, and for those who would consider a 250 gr Barnes X for buff (I know, I know ;-):

.375 H&H 250 gr TTSX 2,940 pfs (25" CZ 550 @ 7,000 ft elevation):
+1.2" @ 50 yd, +3" @ 100 yd, +3.7" @ 150 yd, +3" @ 200 yd, +1" @ 250 yd, -2.4" @ 300 yd, -7.5 @ 350 yd, -14.3 @ 400 yd.
Recoil in 10 1/2 lbs rifle: 31 ft/lbs.
8" vital MPBR: 315 yd.
Wounded wildebeest/hartebeest that did not get the memo saying it is dead, and that is fleeing over the hill at 400 yd? No problem: rest the horizontal cross hair on its back...

Sure, the .375 H&H does not carry the water all that well with a 350 gr slug, but man oh man what a versatile screamer it is with a 250 gr, and yes, there is an increasing number of reports coming back from the field saying the 250 gr X does the trick on buff just as well (some say better) as the 300 gr Partition which had been the gold standard for 50 years...

 

[bruce moulds]

sorry, i meant a 300 gn at 2550.
that bullet dead on at 100 will put a 270 on at 200 with the same sight setting.
and a 235 a bit further out again.
how versatile is that if you take different bullet construction into account.
e.g. 235 speer and 235 barnes for longer shots at smaller things and 300 for buff..
and a 1.5 to 6 scope.
bruce.

 

[One Day...]

sorry, i meant a 300 gn at 2550. that bullet dead on at 100 will put a 270 on at 200 with the same sight setting. and a 235 a bit further out again. how versatile is that if you take different bullet construction into account. e.g. 235 speer and 235 barnes for longer shots at smaller things and 300 for buff.. and a 1.5 to 6 scope. bruce.

In my experience, the 235 gr TSX sacrifices too much in SD. It only shoots 0.2" flatter than the 250 gr TTSX at 350 yd, which is irrelevant in the real world.
Conversely, the 270 gr or 300 gr TSX (even at 2,750 and 2,550 fps respectively) shave 50 yd off the 250 gr MPBR anyway you look at it.
Because I am not convinced that there is a difference on buff between 250 gr and 270 gr, to me the 250 gr TTSX is the best compromise when PG is in the mixed bag...

For your convenience, here is the data on the .375 H&H 300 gr TSX 2,550 fps: +1.4" @ 50 yd, +3" @ 100 yd, +3.1" @ 150 yd, +1.4" @ 200 yd, -2.2" @ 250 yd, -7.9" @ 300 yd. The additional 110 fps do shave 1.4" drop at 300 yd but it is still -15.9" at 350 yd, i.e. way past realistic MPBR...

 

[Red Leg]

So speaking with a good bit of actual practical experience using a .375 on a lot of critters from Suni to Cape buffalo, I don't get the point of lighter bullet weight options. In the real world, a quality 300 gr bullet will take care of anything at any range a PH will be comfortable with a client taking a shot, at any game animal in Africa - no worrying about different sight pictures, scope settings, whatever. Put the crosshairs on the animal and put him in the skinning shed or the fridge. The same can be said for forties and the 400 gr bullet. Getting to Africa with rifle and ammunition is hard enough. Get there with the the right rifle and bullet, and the rest should be easy, simple, and fun.

 

[One Day...]

So speaking with a good bit of actual practical experience using a .375 on a lot of critters from Suni to Cape buffalo on multiple safaris, I don't get the point of lighter bullet weight options. In the real world, a quality 300 gr bullet will take care of anything at any range a PH will be comfortable with a client taking a shot, at any game animal in Africa - no worrying about different sight pictures, scope settings, whatever. Put the crosshairs on the animal and put him in the skinning shed or the fridge. The same can be said for forties and the 400 gr bullet. Getting to Africa with rifle and ammunition is hard enough. Get there with the the right rifle and bullet, and the rest should be easy, simple, and fun.

I may be missing something from what other folks think, but to me it is simple:

1) Additional 50 yd in MPBR.
.375 H&H 300 gr TSX 2,550 fps: +1.4" @ 50 yd, +3" @ 100 yd, +3.1" @ 150 yd, +1.4" @ 200 yd, -2.2" @ 250 yd
.375 H&H 250 gr TTSX 2,940 fpfs: +1.2" @ 50 yd, +3" @ 100 yd, +3.7" @ 150 yd, +3" @ 200 yd, +1" @ 250 yd, -2.4" @ 300 yd,

Is it critical? Heck no! Is it meaningful? Depends on whom you ask.

Does an additional 50 yd in MPBR have an application in the field? In my personal experience in goat & sheep mountain hunting, Western US and Eastern Cape: in general yes. I understand that it would be utterly irrelevant in most eastern US and many places in Africa.

For what it is worth, most shots I took and saw taken in the Stormberg Mountains were longer than 200 yards and my experience was that African game in Eastern Cape was a lot more skittish than elk or deer in an Arizona wilderness. I was struck by that when I went to Africa in August 2018, and back again when I hunted elk in AZ three months later. Higher hunting pressure in Eastern Cape is likely to have something to do with that, so this may be something that varies a lot across Africa...

Does one need to shoot a .375 H&H at more than 250 yd? In my opinion certainly not on DG. Some may say yes on PG if it is a mixed bag hunt, likely depending on where this hunt takes place.

2) A 10% reduction in ejecta weight = 20% reduction in recoil (everything else being equal).
Of course it gets more complicated if the weight reduction is used to increase speed, as a 10% increase in ejecta speed = 20% increase in recoil, but still:

.375 H&H 300 gr 2,550 fps in 10 1/2 lbs rifle: 31 ft/lbs free recoil.
.375 H&H 235 gr 2,700 fps in 10 1/2 lbs rifle: 25 ft/lbs free recoil.

Is it critical? Depends on whom you ask. Is it meaningful? Depends on whom you ask.

To me, this is a very rational argument. Not everyone deals well with heavy recoil. By the way this is the sum total of the 'engineering' behind "managed recoil" ammunition commercial lines.


So, not judging whether this is right or wrong, but I believe that these are the two objective main answers to your objective question, and , as you know, I am not an expert on this because I choose to shoot something smaller on PG and something bigger on DG.

The more I think about it, the more it dawns on me that there may not be any more universal "hunting in Africa" wisdom than there is a "hunting in America" wisdom. Dense eastern woods and open western plains or mountains may just as well be on two different hunting planets, and a PA hunter's deeply held convictions may feel strange to a WY or AZ hunter. And vice versa.

 

[perttime]

Did I get this straight?
According to Murphy, the expensive DG rifle makers have it wrong when they put a standing blade and a couple of folding blades in the iron sights. TIA: inevitably, you will have the wrong blade up when the buffalo takes an interest in you at 20 yards. KIS.

 

[njc110381]

That's it, my brain's fried!

So for plains game I've picked the wrong gun. That doesn't come as an awful shock I have to say! Where I'm at in my head now is a post I read by a PH talking about how many buff took a second shot when .375's were used vs how many first shot drops there were with a .40+. The numbers were similar, and the comments here reflected that there was a lot of respect for said PH.

Basing my completely inexperienced judgement almost completely on that information, I'd rather compromise my plains game a little and have some extra thump when hunting something everyone refers to as "the black death"! I've gone a little overboard with that thinking, but that is mainly due to the ammunition freedom offered to me by the Lott. There is so much more choice with the Lott than the Rigby, even more so than the Jeffery. Does that matter? I'm not actually sure! I am starting to thing a Rigby may have been a better bet but hey, I've started the process and I will finish it. If I have to change it later it's no big deal right?

Now, lots of talk about dropping below 300gr to make the H&H more adaptable. How about with the Lott? How does a lighter Barnes TSX or 400gr Woodleigh Weldcore perform in that? Does that flatten my trajectory a bit and maybe reduce my recoil to that of a 400gr in a .416? Would it still have the required SD to penetrate bone to a satisfactory level?

You know those times when you wish you didn't bring up a subject? Who was it brought up the 8x scope idea?

 

[WAB]

If you are hunting buff you are likely in country with reasonably heavy bush. Plains game shots will not be long, 200 yards max. With 100 much more likely. If that is the case take your 500 gr load and shoot everything with it. I found myself in exactly that situation in Mozambique and had no issues at all.

 

[njc110381]

If you are hunting buff you are likely in country with reasonably heavy bush. Plains game shots will not be long, 200 yards max. With 100 much more likely. If that is the case take your 500 gr load and shoot everything with it. I found myself in exactly that situation in Mozambique and had no issues at all.

That's better. More people say what this guy is saying!