450 Rigby vs 458 Lott

[CTDolan]

The sad part about all of this, is the people I bought the Kimber from immediately relisted the rifle and are still calling it new.

Hopefully they've at least repaired the flaw (considering how they handled the transaction, though, likely not).

 

[Ray B]

The push feed doesn't worry me but the 6 o'clock ejector does. Some have had issues.

View attachment 231151

Why is the 6:00 (when the bolt is open) ejector pose a problem?

 

[IvW]

It ejects empty shells into the scope. The degree of ejection differs from rifle to rifle, anything from 75 to 90 degrees. The issue gets worse when you eject live or unfired rounds. In some cases the empty shell is dropped back into the action instead of out and away. If mounted with a scope they always hit the scope on the way out. Live round ejection is a bigger issue due to the extra length as well as weight. The ejection spring is designed to eject an empty case and in many cases too weak to eject a full round. Some Remington 700 have the same problem, inability to eject a full round.

Another issue as that on many of them the extractor claw does not keep the back of the case flat/tight with the bolt face which adds to the issue.

I have seen extractors on pushfeeds come out of the bolt completely(not on Sako's though).

Issues you do not need or want on a DG rifle.

Pushfeeds have always been an issue on DG rifles, not due to feeding so much but rather due to extraction, issues.

I am old school and on a DG bolt action prefer CF, such as the BRNO ZKK 602.

 

[WAB]

It ejects empty shells into the scope. The degree of ejection differs from rifle to rifle, anything from 75 to 90 degrees. The issue gets worse when you eject live or unfired rounds. In some cases the empty shell is dropped back into the action instead of out and away. If mounted with a scope they always hit the scope on the way out. Live round ejection is a bigger issue due to the extra length as well as weight. The ejection spring is designed to eject an empty case and in many cases too weak to eject a full round. Some Remington 700 have the same problem, inability to eject a full round.

Another issue as that on many of them the extractor claw does not keep the back of the case flat/tight with the bolt face which adds to the issue.

I have seen extractors on pushfeeds come out of the bolt completely(not on Sako's though).

Issues you do not need or want on a DG rifle.

Pushfeeds have always been an issue on DG rifles, not due to feeding so much but rather due to extraction, issues.

I am old school and on a DG bolt action prefer CF, such as the BRNO ZKK 602.

I totally agree! If it is to be used for dangerous game I highly recommend a controlled round feed design. Mauser, CZ, Win M-70, Dakota, Kimber, etc.

 

[WAB]

As a follow on to the controlled round feed comment, cbvanb and I were on a hunt in the Save conservancy last year with our wives. Cbvanb, his wife and PH were charged by a cow ele. The PH’s gun failed and Bruce killed the charging cow at point blank range. If your gun won’t cycle upside down don’t take it on a dangerous game hunt.

 

[TOBY458]

I have a Sako 85 in 375 H&H. It feeds and functions very well. The 6 o'clock ejector can cause scope clearance issues for sure. It can be fixed by turning the scope over so the cap isn't over the ejection port. I've also read that a stronger extractor spring will fix it. Mine works fine, so I haven't had to address it.

 

[sandman0921]

@TOBY458

I’m not sure what your budget is, but Wayne Jacobson over at American Hunting Rifles has 3 pre-owned 458 Lotts for sale over on his website. Both look like nice guns. Two of them are his full-on custom DGR and one actually comes with a Leupold scope set in Talley rings. The other is his upgrade #2 package. All are built off CZ550 Magnums.

I’ve got a 450 Rigby, 404 Jeffery, 375 H&H, and 9.3x62 that he has built me and they shoot lights out and function very well. Wayne is a very standup guy to deal with, and I can guarantee if you’d had a problem with one of his rifles like you had with the Kimber you bought, he’d have remedied it to your satisfaction.

He’s currently building me a 7x57 on a cherry BRNO vz.24 action that will be set in a full length exhibition piece of English walnut and have the full on tx. Always wanted a Mannlicher style stock and seeing a previous project where he did one made me drool....had to have one. I also found a great deal on a Winchester Model 70 Classic in 375 H&H that I’m going to have him convert to a 300 H&H Magnum for my plains game rifle. Needless to say, as I’ve said before I am a big fan of Wayne’s work and trust him to do a great job and build a very functional, accurate, and beautiful rifle.

http://americanhuntingrifles.com/?page_id=66


I’ll weigh in on the 450 Lott versus 450 Rigby debate. I own a 450 Rigby. The big advantage over the Lott is you can take heavy for caliber 0.458 bullets with great SD and load them easily in the long, fat Rigby case. The Lott, not so much. I currently load 550 grain North Fork SS and CPS bullets in mine at around 2250 FPS, and could go higher if I wanted to but won’t because there’s no need, and I paid a lot of money for the 2 crowns on my teeth..... The Rigby will also handle those loads at lower pressure than the Lott. Plus the Rigby is a little less mainstream than the Lott if you’re into that kind of thing. Having said that, that’s where the Lott shines.

Brass for the Lott is more readily available and much cheaper. There’s a little more variety as far as factory fodder. You can shoot 458 Win Mag out of it without a problem, and in a pinch you’re probably more likely to find ammo in Africa if yours doesn’t arrive. Traditionally the Lott can squeeze one more down in the box although with custom bottom metal, the Rigby can be made to hold one more as well.

The 458 Lott is a killing machine and has been doing it in Africa with ease for many years. 500 grains at 2300 FPS can bring down anything on this planet with a correctly placed shot.

The real reason to get a 450 Rigby is because you really want one. I did, and I got one...

Now go spend some money....

 

[IvW]

I have a Sako 85 in 375 H&H. It feeds and functions very well. The 6 o'clock ejector can cause scope clearance issues for sure. It can be fixed by turning the scope over so the cap isn't over the ejection port. I've also read that a stronger extractor spring will fix it. Mine works fine, so I haven't had to address it.

To be quite honest, from a backup point of view, you cannot be pissing about tilting rifles this way and that to get them to function. Pull back fast enough and it will still hit the scope. Use it without a scope and the shells fly straight up and not away and to the right.

Better options available for a DG rifle.

With these issues your PH may have to get into the action when he may not have needed to if you were using a rifle that performed as it should have in the first place.

As a client you may be fine, as a PH you may not. For DG get something that works as it should, first time and every other time after that.

 

[BenKK]

My Sako .500J seems to throw shells away to the right just fine. Did I mention that my first shot with this rifle saved lives at eight metres? It fed flawlessly in that split-second grab-shoulder-bang.

 

[Pheroze]

If you reload I think the advantage of the 450 Rigby is the shoulder. You can FL resize to within 0.02 and minimize case expansion. That also helps with accuracy. I dont know how you achieve this with the lott case. Does one just keep the case mouth within that distance to achieve the same result? I have never reloaded straight walled cases so this is probably as much a question as it is a statement.

 

[Ray B]

Since the case headspaces on the belt my guess is that the accuracy part of it has to do with the close tolerances in the leade so that the case has a snug fit at the throat and the bullet is snug as it goes from the case into the barrel. There are a lot of straight walled very accurate rifles and handguns that use straight walled rimmed or belted cases out there. Since the case is straight walled I'd also guess that there is little force from the powder pushing forward on the brass as it would on a shouldered case.

 

[CTDolan]

If you reload I think the advantage of the 450 Rigby is the shoulder. You can FL resize to within 0.02 and minimize case expansion. That also helps with accuracy. I dont know how you achieve this with the lott case. Does one just keep the case mouth within that distance to achieve the same result? I have never reloaded straight walled cases so this is probably as much a question as it is a statement.

There’s different ways but with any DG cartridge I’d recommend not minimizing the resizing operation. Accuracy is a non-issue and you want to be damn sure everything enters the chamber, fully, without a hitch. A little sand or dirt is all it takes.

 

[Pheroze]

There’s different ways but with any DG cartridge I’d recommend not minimizing the resizing operation. Accuracy is a non-issue and you want to be damn sure everything enters the chamber, fully, without a hitch. A little sand or dirt is all it takes.

Ah right, good point

 

[Nkawu]

As a follow on to the controlled round feed comment, cbvanb and I were on a hunt in the Save conservancy last year with our wives. Cbvanb, his wife and PH were charged by a cow ele. The PH’s gun failed and Bruce killed the charging cow at point blank range. If your gun won’t cycle upside down don’t take it on a dangerous game hunt.

What rifle did the PH have? And what went wrong? Lastly, what did Bruce use to kill the cow? Thanks!

 

[WAB]

What rifle did the PH have? And what went wrong? Lastly, what did Bruce use to kill the cow? Thanks!

See my previous post on the Zim hunt for details. Bruce was shooting a CZ in .375 w 300 gr A-Frames. The DG hunting was done and we were on to plains game. Apparently a 300 gr soft will stone a cow ele if the barrel is touching her forehead!

 

[sandman0921]

See my previous post on the Zim hunt for details. Bruce was shooting a CZ in .375 w 300 gr A-Frames. The DG hunting was done and we were on to plains game. Apparently a 300 gr soft will stone a cow ele if the barrel is touching her forehead!

@WAB

How I missed this from before I don’t know, but holy cow! What a story. I’m set to hunt Africa for the first time (Tanzania) this August. While I’m a big lover of adventure, I would prefer this did not happen...

I’m glad your friends, and the PH, were not harmed because like others have said, this could have just as likely been a tragic story. That PH had God’s angels with him that day for sure. How that cow didn’t spear him through the chest I’ll never know. Sounds like she was pressing the attack. I’m also surprised she didn’t just try to run though that mopane tree instead of playing ring-around-the-rosey with your compadre and his wife.......

Wow, just wow....

 

[WAB]

@WAB

How I missed this from before I don’t know, but holy cow! What a story. I’m set to hunt Africa for the first time (Tanzania) this August. While I’m a big lover of adventure, I would prefer this did not happen...

I’m glad your friends, and the PH, were not harmed because like others have said, this could have just as likely been a tragic story. That PH had God’s angels with him that day for sure. How that cow didn’t spear him through the chest I’ll never know. Sounds like she was pressing the attack. I’m also surprised she didn’t just try to run though that mopane tree instead of playing ring-around-the-rosey with your compadre and his wife.......

Wow, just wow....

Yep, between a mad cow and a wounded buff, it was more adventure than we anticipated. It all worked out great in the end and I can't wait to go back. We have both decided that even plains game hunting, we will not be in the bush with less than a .375 in the future and there will be a few solids in the belt. The PH's I have hunted with have all been great, but as our experience shows, they and their rifles are not infallible. You need to be prepared to take care of yourself if need be.

 

[sandman0921]

@Pheroze,

If you reload I think the advantage of the 450 Rigby is the shoulder.

To me the biggest advantage as far as reloading the 450 Rigby versus a belted cartridge such as the 458 Lott and for that matter, the 460 Weatherby, is avoiding the belt. I always FL resize my dangerous game rounds and as far as the belt goes, you inevitably will get the slight expansion in the case body ahead of the belt because the FL sizing die can't go past it, and after a few firings (as little as 2-3 in my experience with some of the belted magnums) you can verify this by "mic-ing" the case body ahead of the belt with some Vernier calipers. There is a a Belted Magnum Collet Resizing Die that will help get rid of that "pre-belt" expansion made by Larry Willis (Innovative Technologies). I have one, and it works well. I have a few belted magnums (257 WM, 338 WM, 375 H&H Mag) that I use it on, but it's another step in my already tedious and laborious reloading regimen. It's nice to not have to fool with it. It's true that FL resizing every time will work-harden the brass and lead to premature failure of the case, or cracking of the case neck/body, but I minimize my case wear for my 450 Rigby by annealing the case every time I de-prime and ultrasonically clean, and before I FL resize the case. Another inherent problem with straight-walled cases is the fact that one has to get the flare, or bell, of the case mouth just right in order to seat the bullet correctly in the case without getting an accordion, or wrinkling, effect of the first few mm of the case mouth/body. I learned this the hard way when I was learning to reload for my B. Searcy Double Rifle in 450 NE 3 1/4 inch. It's a long, straight case, and I thought I had flared the case mouth enough, but not so much. Case mouth flaring/belling is just another step in the reloading process when reloading for straight-walled cartridges. No big deal , but just another step to learn.

You can FL resize to within 0.02 and minimize case expansion. That also helps with accuracy.

There’s different ways but with any DG cartridge I’d recommend not minimizing the resizing operation. Accuracy is a non-issue and you want to be damn sure everything enters the chamber, fully, without a hitch. A little sand or dirt is all it takes.

And while it is true you can partial FL resize bottleneck cartridges like the 450 Rigby, I would be hesitant to do so because eventually after a few firings, the case body will expand (and not spring back enough) to the point of needing FL resizing. Without FL resizing the case, it can be difficult to chamber and eventually may stick in the chamber at the worst possible time. Even if it didn't need FL resizing, the chance of it sticking in my chamber due to grit as CTDolan pointed out, or because of increased pressure in hot temps, would give me pause in partial FL resizing any round intended on potentially saving ones life. I agree with CTDolan in that accuracy is not much of an issue for rifle of this caliber and intended purpose. I FL resize the cases for my AHR DGR in 450 Rigby, and I can still get outstanding accuracy (sub MOA) at 100 yards and in.

You can FL resize to within 0.02 and minimize case expansion. That also helps with accuracy.

Minimal case expansion and accuracy are related, but also two different things in this case. What you're describing is partial FL resizing, and effectively just bumping the shoulder back 0.002 to 0.003 while also resizing the neck. This will leave the case body alone for the most part, and after the first expansion from firing, and the subsequent retraction/spring back of the brass, you will have a brass case that will have minimal gap between the case wall and YOUR chamber. The key is YOUR chamber, as it may not be the case in another rifle's chamber, especially tight custom chamber reamers with different leade/throat dimensions than SAAMI spec chambers. The big advantage of partial FL resizing is that you do bump the shoulder back minimally and thus allow for a little gap between the chamber wall and case in this area. Neck sizing only doesn't do this at all, and only resizes the neck. By using either of these techniques, your technically minimizing play/slop between the brass case and chamber wall, and therefore aligning the shoulder/neck area (and thus the bullet) and theoretically better centering that bullet in the leade/throat area so that once the bullet jumps to the lands of the barrel at ignition, it engages those lands equally and at roughly the same time if you will. Assuming your bullet concentricity (as it is seated in the case neck), neck tension, neck uniformity, etc., are all consistent, this technique should lead to increased consistency and thus accuracy. I believe it probably does, and most BR, F-class, PRS shooters do this as well. For my non-DGR hunting rifles where long range shots are possible, like my sheep/goat rifle (280 Ackley Improved), I do this as well. But as stated before, for a DGR, I personally would not do this as the risk/benefit equation is much more heavily weighted towards malfunction with little gain in accuracy at DGR ranges. Of course, I know you didn't ask my opinion, and realize my opinion is valued at a penny or maybe less....

I have heard the statement before that straight-walled cartridges are inherently more accurate than bottleneck cartridges, but if that is the case, why are none of the precision shooters using these cartridges versus the bottlenecked case like 6 BRA, 6 and 6.5 Creedmore, 6 PPC, etc.? I think for blackpowder cartridges there are some inherent advantages of straight-walled cartridges, etc., however I'm not sure accuracy is one of them, but I don't know. There are indeed some very accurate rifles (and handguns) that shoot straight-walled cartridges very accurately, but I'm not sure if that's the cartridge itself or the rifle or the shooter or all of the above...I'm sure there are more experienced wildcatters, reloaders, etc., on this forum that have more knowledge and experience than myself.

Sorry to hijack the thread. I actually started typing and realized that I'd deviated way off on a tangent, but had already committed to, and spent a lot of time on, the typing of a lot of this so I sent it....so there you go....

 

[sandman0921]

@WAB

We have both decided that even plains game hunting, we will not be in the bush with less than a .375 in the future and there will be a few solids in the belt.

I would say a smart idea....

Just curious....Do you remember what softs your partner was using in his 375 H&H Magnum when he shot the cow?

 

[WAB]

@WAB



I would say a smart idea....

Just curious....Do you remember what softs your partner was using in his 375 H&H Magnum when he shot the cow?

Absolutely, Swift A-Frame. I'm sure there are other great bullets out there but I've killed a lot of critters with Swift A-Frames and Trophy Bonded Bearclaw bullets. I won't use anything else. I made the mistake of using Hornady DGX bullets...once. When I lived in Alaska, a 270 gr. Swift A-Frame in my .375 H&H was my bear gun with incredible effect. There are folks on this forum with a lot more elephant knowledge than I have, but I believe that a frontal brain shot on a cow elephant requires 14 or 16" of bone penetration. Obviously not an application for a soft unless she's running down your throat and that is what is up the pipe. I think it speaks well of the A-Frame that it got the job done.