.45-70 for Elephant

[mdwest]

I've seen two instances where the Hornady FTX 325 grain factory load were used on deer, and the insides looked like a grenade had been swallowed. Not a fan of that FTX bullet from what I've seen on <100 yard shots on deer.

Good information...

I was literally just about to buy 4 boxes of 325gr FTX for my 458 SOCOM for hog hunting..

Since I actually like to eat wild pig (I know a lot dont).. I think I'll steer clear of the FTX and try to find something else..

For almost everything in the safe I load either Barnes TSX or TTSX.. but was hoping to find something I like thats a little bit less expensive for the 458 SOCOM since it has the ability to chew through 20+ rounds in a matter of seconds...

 

[Tubby’s Canteen]

Can you tell us specifics of the bullet used to shoot your friend's buck? I've used the Winchester 300 gr hollowpoint on several deer, killed all with a single shot but on my largest (220 lbs dressed) this bullet fragmented badly on a shoulder shot at 50 yards (buck dropped dead at the shot). Others were behind the shoulder and complete pass through, short runs after before falling. I've switched over to cast lead bullets more recently (HSM Bear Load at 435 grains, 1800 fps I believe).
I was able to kill a young bison while hunting with @gizmo at his ranch earlier this year and had complete penetration through both shoulders with at least one of two bullets.
I've seen two instances where the Hornady FTX 325 grain factory load were used on deer, and the insides looked like a grenade had been swallowed. Not a fan of that FTX bullet from what I've seen on <100 yard shots on deer.

I do all of my deer hunting with 45-70 and have used 325 ftxs a lot, they’ve killed everything I’ve shot with them but I have had separation issues with the bullets. I have retrieved several jackets not retaining any lead.

 

[IvW]

Lots of reckless comments about puny cartridges used on DG. If under perfect conditions or the old comments about 7x57mm being used by Bell on elephants was so effective how many have stopped whatever DG they where hunting with these small calibers? Very few if any.
45/70 is not an elephant caliber.

To each their own but I can guve the following advise, whatever caliber you choose for hunting whatever DG make sure you use a caliber yhat is capible of stopping that DG when things go south....

If you want to hunt lion can you stop that lion with the chosen caliber?

If you hunt elephant with a 45/70 can you stop that 60lb elephant in a determined chargem If not it is not a suitable caliber for the job.

I woul gladly hunt elephant buls with a 375 H&H but if I need to follow up or sort out a wounded elephant I prefer my 500 Jeff.

So think carefully before recommending unsuitable calibers for certain DG animals.

 

[CD24]

Can you tell us specifics of the bullet used to shoot your friend's buck? I've used the Winchester 300 gr hollowpoint on several deer, killed all with a single shot but on my largest (220 lbs dressed) this bullet fragmented badly on a shoulder shot at 50 yards (buck dropped dead at the shot). Others were behind the shoulder and complete pass through, short runs after before falling. I've switched over to cast lead bullets more recently (HSM Bear Load at 435 grains, 1800 fps I believe).
I was able to kill a young bison while hunting with @gizmo at his ranch earlier this year and had complete penetration through both shoulders with at least one of two bullets.
I've seen two instances where the Hornady FTX 325 grain factory load were used on deer, and the insides looked like a grenade had been swallowed. Not a fan of that FTX bullet from what I've seen on <100 yard shots on deer.

It was a leverevolution hornady. We recovered the polymer tip and a shard of jacket. I have killed deer with a single shot black powder pistol loaded with a round ball and i truly believe that shot placement is everything BUT if a less than ideal shot is made a more powerful round certainly helps. Im absolutely positive that you can kill an elephant with a 45-70 but I wouldn’t guess it’s prudent.

As for my buffalo, it did drop on the first shot with a lucky frontal spine hit. It took several more to finish him. Im not knocking the 375, I’m saying i felt undergunned and would prefer 400-500 grains if I were to do it again.

 

[fourfive8]

Lots of reckless comments about puny cartridges used on DG. If under perfect conditions or the old comments about 7x57mm being used by Bell on elephants was so effective how many have stopped whatever DG they where hunting with these small calibers? Very few if any.
45/70 is not an elephant caliber.

To each their own but I can guve the following advise, whatever caliber you choose for hunting whatever DG make sure you use a caliber yhat is capible of stopping that DG when things go south....

If you want to hunt lion can you stop that lion with the chosen caliber?

If you hunt elephant with a 45/70 can you stop that 60lb elephant in a determined chargem If not it is not a suitable caliber for the job.

I woul gladly hunt elephant buls with a 375 H&H but if I need to follow up or sort out a wounded elephant I prefer my 500 Jeff.

So think carefully before recommending unsuitable calibers for certain DG animals.

EXACTLY!

 

[Tanks]

...

If you hunt elephant with a 45/70 can you stop that 60lb elephant in a determined chargem If not it is not a suitable caliber for the job.

...

I think one could stop a "60lb elephant" with a .243

 

[CJW]

I haven't been on the forum for a while but I can't believe things are slow enough that a ten year old 45/70 elephant gun thread needs to be brought back up. Things are never that slow.

 

[Dr Ray]

Well I wouldn’t use 45/70 on such a big animal but that’s up to the hunter.

 

[njc110381]

I haven't been on the forum for a while but I can't believe things are slow enough that a ten year old 45/70 elephant gun thread needs to be brought back up. Things are never that slow.

I missed it the first time around so have enjoyed reading it if I'm honest! It made me smile more than once, and also got me angry a couple of times.

As for the .45-70 for elephant, well it was featured in Jurassic Park wasn't it... If it'll kill a T-Rex in a film then it'll surely work on an elephant in real life?!

I own a .45-70 myself, I love the gun. It's the only one I have that has ripped a shackle off of a gong with the first shot, the impact energy from that thing shooting 500gr cast bullets at close range is huge and the recoil is enough to entertain a lot of the guys shooting smaller bores at the range. It's cheap to shoot so I can hand it around freely, anyone can have a go. It's not an elephant gun, but for as long as there are guys out there who think that a first round kill on a gong is what matters, it makes them happy.

.416 Rigby all the way for me!

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I think one could stop a "60lb elephant" with a .243

@Thanks
I wouldn't use the 243 on anything bigger than a 6oz mosquito.
The 45/70 will and has killed elephant, the 22 Hornet has and will kill a cape buffalo.
Is it right to use it for such applications. NO. Use enough gun for the worst situation not just enough for the best situations.
Bob

 

[Professor Mawla]

I do not believe that the .45-70 Government calibre is a good one for hunting elephants , under any but the most fortunate of circumstances . The velocity is simply too low , when employing 500 grain bullets . And the sectional density is pitiful , when employing 300 grain bullets .

It CAN take out an Asiatic jungle elephant cow , with a side brain shot . Provided that the bullet ( let us assume that the operator is employing a 500 grain flat nosed full metal jacket bullet which is being propelled at a velocity of 1600 feet per second , as found in high pressure Buffalo Bore factory loads ) passes above the zygomatic arch . Under most other circumstances , I would hesitate to use it on any Asiatic jungle elephant cows . Under no circumstances however , would I ever attempt to employ ANY form of .45-70 Government ammunition against an Asiatic jungle elephant bull .

 

[crs]

One of the reasons that we chose an experienced African hunter for our African DG bullet testing project that had killed ele, buff, etc, was that not all hunters will be able to stand up to a bull elephant at 15 -20 yards for the frontal brain shot. Same for cape buff as they require accurate shot placement too and may not all run away when shot. Joe actually practiced his shooting at elevated targets to approximate the height of the head of a mature bull. It was also necessary to have an experienced 1886 45-70 and 45-90 hunter so that the rifle handling would not be problematical. It appears that we chose well as our hunter had the proper rifle, ammo, and game experience and was up to the tasks.

 

[Certus]

I missed it the first time around so have enjoyed reading it if I'm honest! It made me smile more than once, and also got me angry a couple of times.

As for the .45-70 for elephant, well it was featured in Jurassic Park wasn't it... If it'll kill a T-Rex in a film then it'll surely work on an elephant in real life?!

I own a .45-70 myself, I love the gun. It's the only one I have that has ripped a shackle off of a gong with the first shot, the impact energy from that thing shooting 500gr cast bullets at close range is huge and the recoil is enough to entertain a lot of the guys shooting smaller bores at the range. It's cheap to shoot so I can hand it around freely, anyone can have a go. It's not an elephant gun, but for as long as there are guys out there who think that a first round kill on a gong is what matters, it makes them happy.

.416 Rigby all the way for me!

Couple points: it was Jurassic World, not Jurassic Park. We all know Jurassic Park failed quickly. The Jurassic World park got to be enjoyed by tens of thousands for years before the incident lead to it being shut down.

Your statement about killing a T-Rex isn’t factual. So far no one has used a .45-70 on a T-Rex. Owen tried to use his on an Indominus Rex but it lacked the power required for this animal.

Don’t you read your Dino-Safari guides?



Edit to add: I’m sure some won’t realise but the above is a joke...

 

[bruce moulds]

some question the 458 win mag (not all).
the case is 0.3" longer than the 45/70.
the same bullets for the job in a 45/70 case leaves a lot less powder capacity.
those who think slower bullets are better might well prefer the 45/70.
bruce.

 

[bruce moulds]

make that 0.4" longer.
bruce.

 

[Gert Odendaal]

I think it is not so much about if the 45-70 is an Elephant gun, than the reaction of an Elephant after being shot with a 45-70 caliber hunting rifle. There are only two scenarios I think...one : the penetration might not be enough ( except the side -brain shot might just do the trick and drop the elephant ) if indeed the penetration and shot placement is not good enough scenario 2 will set in..the elephant will either start running or start charging the shooter or being charged by other elephants around the elephant being shot at...the latter will result in a hunter being trampled to death or a hunter learning to climb a tree extremely fast...fortunate these scenarios will never , ever happened ...there is no way or chance a PH will allow any hunter to hunt elephant with a 45-70 caliber rifle at all..anyway , not in South Africa or in any Africa country..the best option to test this theory is if a USA citizen hunter try to shoot an African elephant in a zoo to test the penetration capabilities of the 45-70 caliber rifle...

 

[Forrest Halley]

..the best option to test this theory is if a USA citizen hunter try to shoot an African elephant in a zoo to test the penetration capabilities of the 45-70 caliber rifle...

Just when I thought this dumpster fire of a thread could descend no lower, this gem was delivered to us by the good idea fairy...achievement unlocked.

 

[Whacker]

I think it is not so much about if the 45-70 is an Elephant gun, than the reaction of an Elephant after being shot with a 45-70 caliber hunting rifle. There are only two scenarios I think...one : the penetration might not be enough ( except the side -brain shot might just do the trick and drop the elephant )

I know it is not regarded as an elephant rifle and I have no personal experience with it on African game nor do I have any desire to shoot an elephant with anything other than a camera...I do own and hunt with the caliber quite a lot and have researched the penetration capabilities quite extensively. After much research before my initial purchase of this rifle several years ago I found in my research that after around 1500-1600 FPS that solids and hard cast rounds seem to have an unexpected negative effect on penetration contrary to what one would think. I found numerous articles where individuals had tried penetration tests using 458 Lott, 458 Win Mag, and yes the 45-70 which has the least velocity of the three and consequently in order each caliber drops in velocity by 200-300 FPS from one another. In all of these tests it was said that the 45-70 penetrated further than the other two with the 458 Lott being both the fastest and having the least penetration when tested. One test used wet newspapers stacked as media showing the penetration of the 45-70 at as deep as 72 inches and the 458 Lott between 48-54 inches. I do not personally understand this either as I have no personal experience with the 458 Win Mag or 458 Lott calibers although I do want the Lott at some point but maybe someone here can try a test that has all three calibers or maybe a couple of us could get together that have the various calibers and do a test ourselves just for fun to see because I had a hard time believing this as well. I do have experience seeing the penetration capabilities of the 45-70 on a black bear though as I have seen a 405 grain hard cast go into the skull with the bear facing head on standing on all fours go right through the skull and through the breast and the entire length of the body hitting a rear hip bone penetrating that and exiting through the rear ham making complete penetration through the bear from head to rear of course resulting in a drt shot. It does have very impressive penetration regardless of its anemic speed although that round was loaded to 1950 FPS. It really has to do with bullet selection also because I have seen the same caliber with 300 grain hollow point not completely penetrating whitetail at 2300 FPS on angled quartering shots as well but I have never recovered a hard cast round shot into an animal from it...certainly never gonna shoot an elephant to try though either.

 

[Mark Curry]

That’s an easy question, NO!

 

[Quaticman]

I have been to Africa on a few occasions and I know quite a few very good, very experienced PH's. Some of these guys have been hunting Elephant for 30+ years. Not one of them that I have asked would allow a client to hunt Elephant with a .45/70, not one. So if highly experienced PH's say it's a no no, who are you going to believe, them or Bubba from wherever?