45-70 dangerous game?

[BigHill]

416 Rigby, Norma PH 450 gr, SD .371.

 

[CZDiesel]

416 Rigby, Norma PH 450 gr, SD .371.

Now that’s sectional density!

 

[Brian]

And you can load the 45-70 even hotter in a lever action (42,000psi?). Buffalo Bore has a 380 gr. mono-metal solid at 2075 fps. And Grizzly has a 405 hard cast at 2050fps. Throw in some CEB slugs and you've got something.

MauserDuff, Correct!
The 458 diameter bullet is 10% larger diamete than to 410 grain 450-400 NE bullet. In the 2000fps range on big dangerous game the bigger diameter is better.

The good old 450-400 NE returned to popularity with Hornady bullets and similar being promoted along with it. These types of bullets are mediocre and not near the top of the range DG bullets available these days. The 400 grain CEB Raptor bullet of or the 400 grain North Fork expanding bullet at 2000 fps, would be excellent for the 45-70 Lever, or Single-shot IMO.

The 450-400 NE has gotten a lot of love in the last few years, I'm just saying that the 45-70 when well loaded is just a tad better for cape buffalo.

On Monday I am on a flight to Africa where I have 6 cape buffalo booked. I am taking my 577 NE single shot with 700 grain Peregrine Bushmaster bullets.
Me happy!
Brian

 

[CZDiesel]

Bigger diameter IS NOT better on DG if it doesn’t penetrate! Do you just make this stuff up?

 

[F. Vaccaro]

You called it, I just added video.

Yes the speed is there but the 400gr 458 bullet has a very poor .272 SD where as the 400gr .410 bullet has a very very good .340! This is why the 416 class cartridges penetrate so well…

As I said, my dog isn't in this fight, I'm not going to shoot a cape buff with any rifle at this stage. Just mentioning the .45-70 may be more powerful than some believe in a strong rifle. Not going to argue about DG using it.
It is comforting in the dark timber after elk where there is the possibility of bumping a grizz!

 

[michael458]

The World has changed dramatically over the last 20 years........... in fact, it can really be dropped to around 15 years in all reality......... The days of Sectional Density being a major factor in depth of penetration are long gone. The only time that Sectional Density can be considered a factor at all, is if ALL OTHER FACTORS ARE EQUAL............

On Page 3 of this very thread we address Sectional Density Concerning Solid Projectiles, we spoke about the 8 Known, Absolute Factors of Solid Terminal Performance, we pointed out how out of 8 Factors, Sectional Density was Dead Last #8 of determining Factors of Solid Penetration...... We showed the greatest Example of that as well. Go Back and Review Page 3.......Really I would think that most are intelligent enough to do so, without it having to be completely posted here once again? Of course, some missed it on Page 3, or possibly ......... Dismissed it?



Then again, on this very same thread, Page 8, we fully addressed the discussion of Sectional Density concerning Expanding and Trauma Inflicting Bullets, and we spoke extensively concerning "Terminal Sectional Density", we showed examples of Bullets and their Terminal Sectional Density, we showed examples of how this works, we showed examples of modern bullets of much lesser weight and sectional density out performs older more conventional expanding bullets, at length....... proven in the field and on the range, many many many times over. But again, some missed the Memo, or "Dismissed" the Memo in favor of Conventional Beliefs, that no longer hold true. Please review once again.



Yes, I know all about what "Some" say and write about Sectional Density, and I have even had discussions with some of those same folks..... at the time, they Looked at me like I was some sort of Alien Creature, but yet had no evidence to the contrary, just outdated "Conventional Wisdom" from 100 years of indoctrination.

Believe me, I am a "Penetration Freak", more is better always in my book. Exits are SUCCESS in my book. Straight line performance is top end, and penetration is everything!

Caliber and Penetration is required for large thick skinned dangerous game. Rat calibers are damn near useless when trying to impress buffalo. I know this as a fact. In 2012 I took my own 9.3 B&M on a 5 day shooting exercise in South Africa, working with mostly a 200 gr Raptor at that time, 2900 fps. I was impressed with its performance for a medium caliber, animals such as oryx and wildebeest were DRT 50% of the time, the remaining 50% they ran for 20-30 steps and dropped stone cold. Zebra would always run sometimes a 100 yards before dropping stone cold. Lesser animals were all DRT. Just after this I took that same 9.3 to Australia to do some buffalo shooting. The Performance was DISMAL to say the least. After about 10 buffalo I put it to the side, Oh it killed the hell out of them, but the buffalo did not pay much attention to taking a hit. I used larger 250 gr Raptors, 200 Raptors, 280 Solids, and other super bullets, but I could not make the 9.3 a larger caliber regardless of bullets used. And BTW, all bullets exited, even the 200 Raptors, none were recovered.........

On this same trip I had both Sons along for the first real outings of the 50 B&M Super Short and the 475 B&M Super Short......... Bullets? In the 50 B&M Super Short my Son Matthew was shooting 375 gr CEB #13 Solids at 2170 fps and a 335 CEB Raptor at 2250 fps, 375 North Fork Solids at 2150 fps and 375 North Fork Expanding CPS at 2200 fps. He was slamming buffalo to the dirt with this little gun, which weighs in at 6.25 lbs, 16.25 inch barrel, and 36 inches overall length. Our Friend Paul Truccolo was present, along with our close Friend Sam Rose, Sam was using his 500 NE and Paul his own 500 MDM. Both of these very experienced gentlemen made the same comment, the 50 Super Short was just as effective as 500 NE. And it was. Now, honestly, before this, I would not have recommended these cartridges or rifles for this sort of work, But I was dead wrong, not only were they adequate, they exceeded Adequate when using new Bullet Tech..........

375 North Fork Expanding CPS...... Matthew fired two of these in the big buffalo above, angle shot, so not full broadside, both were recovered. His third round fired, was one of the new design North Fork Solids at 375 gr, little more angle, but it exited forward of the far shoulder.

Non Terminal Sectional Density of a 375 gr .500 caliber bullet is .214, and of course Terminal Sectional Density is less, I have not measured these bullets and don't have a Terminal SD. But those that think SD is important would say .214 was not adequate....... I beg to differ. SD of the Solid 375 would be the same, both before and Terminal........ hmmmm......

My other Son Mark David also slammed his share of buffalo as well. He was shooting his 475 B&M Super Short with 350 gr CEB #13 Solids at 2214 fps, 320 CEB Raptors at 2308 fps, 375 North Fork Expanding CPS at 2150 fps. He took this buffalo with 320 Raptors..... not sure about followup solids on this one....... The base Raptor was recovered far side........

.474 caliber 320 Raptor starts with an SD of .203......... Terminal? I have not sorted that out, but much less......... reaches far side of buffalo and blows the heart to pieces........ I have had 500 gr Swift A Frames not do any more than that....... in 458 Lott......... So SD?

In 2014 I took Mark David along to Africa where he showed off his skills with his 475 B&M Super Short, shooting those same bullets he used in Australia........... Same story with this buffalo, one 320 Raptor through the heart, and a followup 350 CEB Solid, this buffalo took exactly 5 steps and was DRT.............

They took this hippo out of the water mind you, Mark laced it full of .474 caliber holes with the 350 gr CEB Solids, hippo did not survive the affair........ as you see. Mark Davids Sister is rather pleased with the performance as well.... LOL

There were some elephants causing some issues in the area, and Mark was fortunate enough to be able to take one to help solve the issues............ I was not expecting trouble myself, but played backup thinking I might get to shoot a little as well......... This elephant came by at 10 steps, presented a perfect side brain shot, which Mark excuted perfectly, rear end drop followed by the front, classic shot...... I did not fire a round, damn! Mark gave another solid through the chest. Both of these exited and were not recovered............. This is a 350 gr .474 caliber CEB Solid Sectional Density of .223.................

Please go back, review pages 3 and pages 8 of this same thread for more on "Sectional Density"...